ole farmerbuck
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Maybe i missed it but did you ever weigh the powder after pulling the bullets?
what other than the wrong powder causes these signs?
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Detritus
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Yes, Don't think i ever directly said but yes
I weighed the charges from 5 or 6 loaded rounds and they again weighed in at 41 grs, on two different Lee scales.
in the time since i last posted to this thread i've bought 150 pieces of winchester unprimed brass, and i'm going to start over, with new brass, a new batch of powder, and some unused 150Gr hunting bullets i have lying around.
If i have issues this time around I'll pretty much KNOW it's the scale(s).
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Maj Dad
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In my dark early days, I started with the max load and worked down. Around 1970, I built a 308 on a VZ-24 action with a Shaw bbl, and did it up right. But my loads were not right, and I had to beat the bolt open with a piece of 2x4 on a couple of occasions. The flattened heads and primers told the tale, and I learned a valuable and (luckily for me) no-injury lesson. I have since become very attuned to those things which can cause these issues - e.g, military cases loaded to the max and not trimmed, and a cavalier attitude toward powder charges. Rarely do I find the most accurate charge is the hottest, and a deer killed with an accurate 150 gr bullet at 2500 fps is vastly superior to a deer wounded and lost to a flyer at 2900 fps. It pays to pay attention, and to pay attention to those things that demand attention.
My 2 cents based on 40 yrs of case stuffing...
My 2 cents based on 40 yrs of case stuffing...
I test fired a Mauser I planned to build, when I finally got the case out it looked like the case on the right only worse, I started with maximum loads then went up from there.The rifle did not display a dislike for 10 different loads I used after building it into a 270 Winchester, small adjustments are required when changing loads, but, not by much.
F. Guffey
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Detritus
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something i just found, possibly pertainent(sp?)
the in comparison to data i'm finding elsewhere, in Lee's "Modern reloading" in particular, the loads, both starting and Max, for IMR 4895 found on the Hodgdon website are all 2-4grs hotter than those listed anywhere else.
just my own feeling here but I think I'll stick to the more conservative numbers!
the in comparison to data i'm finding elsewhere, in Lee's "Modern reloading" in particular, the loads, both starting and Max, for IMR 4895 found on the Hodgdon website are all 2-4grs hotter than those listed anywhere else.
just my own feeling here but I think I'll stick to the more conservative numbers!
TooTaxed
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Detritus,
Two main things may be at play...IMR 4895 is naturally slightly hotter than H 4895, and the velocity and pressure data will vary slightly between manuals due to the specific firearms used by each company to determine the load data. Again, you will likely get slightly different results from the same manual load fired in your firearm. Cases longer than recommended (untrimmed) and long cartridges...bullets jammed into the rifling when fed...will also cause greater pressure.
That's why it's advisable to have several manuals to compare load data. Also, it's a bit risky to start out with max loads...better to start somewhat lighter, check for signs of excessive pressure...flattened primers are OK, but cratered primer indentations are getting rather hot...and work up or down as shooting results warrant.
Two main things may be at play...IMR 4895 is naturally slightly hotter than H 4895, and the velocity and pressure data will vary slightly between manuals due to the specific firearms used by each company to determine the load data. Again, you will likely get slightly different results from the same manual load fired in your firearm. Cases longer than recommended (untrimmed) and long cartridges...bullets jammed into the rifling when fed...will also cause greater pressure.
That's why it's advisable to have several manuals to compare load data. Also, it's a bit risky to start out with max loads...better to start somewhat lighter, check for signs of excessive pressure...flattened primers are OK, but cratered primer indentations are getting rather hot...and work up or down as shooting results warrant.
Ridgerunner665
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Oil in the chamber...
It will cause ejector marks and sticky bolt lift....but NOT blown primers.
It will cause ejector marks and sticky bolt lift....but NOT blown primers.
brass
I too had this happen to me! I finely found that my brass, once fired beore I purchased it, had been annealed. It was so soft in the head, that reduced loads would cause the same kind of primer pocket swelling as your pictures. You didn't anneal them by any chance did you? I finely sent the whole lot to the trash. No more problems. Best regards the toolman.
I too had this happen to me! I finely found that my brass, once fired beore I purchased it, had been annealed. It was so soft in the head, that reduced loads would cause the same kind of primer pocket swelling as your pictures. You didn't anneal them by any chance did you? I finely sent the whole lot to the trash. No more problems. Best regards the toolman.
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Detritus
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Nope, never annealed any of the brass i've used, of any type, and certainly not this stuff.
In the 20 years i've been handloading, I don't think i've ever used any batch of brass enough that the possibility of annealing the necks etc to extend it's life ever came up. never even came up when i was going through 2-300rds sometimes more, a week of handloaded .223 back when i was in college.
I am of the oppinion that for the most part this is all down to that particular batch of PPU being crap brass.
BADUNAME37
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This is really far-fetched, but I thought I would toss it out anyway since it came to mind.
Is there ANY WAY, AT ALL that someone may have been playing with your powder? People who don't shoot and don't reload don't know of the dangers involved should something be wrong.
You wouldn't happen to know of someone who may have poured some hotter, or different powder into that container, would you?
It is absolutely nothing I would ever consider, in fact all of us who appreciate reloading and shooting would not do this, however someone "playing games" with you could possibly do it if they had access to your powders.
I'm not accusing, I am simply asking, as that was one of the FIRST things that came to my mind!
Is there ANY WAY, AT ALL that someone may have been playing with your powder? People who don't shoot and don't reload don't know of the dangers involved should something be wrong.
You wouldn't happen to know of someone who may have poured some hotter, or different powder into that container, would you?
It is absolutely nothing I would ever consider, in fact all of us who appreciate reloading and shooting would not do this, however someone "playing games" with you could possibly do it if they had access to your powders.
I'm not accusing, I am simply asking, as that was one of the FIRST things that came to my mind!
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Detritus
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No, because...
- for various reasons everyone else that has lived here in the time i've had powder on hand, left my reloading supplies alone.
- even if one of them DID decide to monkey with powder, the only other powder they could have done so with was my bottle of Win231 which is very VISIBLY different from IMR4895
In the spirit of full disclosure, there was a small chance that I may have contaminated the powder. since i pulled down some unused .223 that i'd loaded, and those rounds might have been leftovers from when i lived in NC.
But after going back through and finding the cases involved, all bear '99 or later LC headstamps, meaning they had to be from the boxes of Black Hills remanufactured that i bought after i moved to TX, and while I have lived down here IMR4895 is the ONLY extruded "stick" type powder I have used so far.
qajaq59
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Oil in the chamber could have let the cartridge fly back too fast. But I'd be checking the scale and the weight of the other powder right off the bat. It is possible that you accidently hit the counterweight on the scale for the last few cases and overloaded the case. That is, if you use a beam scale?
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Detritus
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BTW, forgot to add this above.
In the two months that have elapsed since i last replied to this thread, I've tossed the powder and the PPU cases that were used for the loads in question, and started fresh.
I have started over with 150 pieces of brand new winchester brass, 2 and a half boxes (250 total) of 150gr bullets, divided between 100 fresh and 50 left over Hornady interlocks and 100 Sierra 150gr SMKs , and a fresh pound of IMR 4895. so far i am quite pleased with the results, I'm getting mostly sub-MOA groups (and the ones that are larger are ME not the load or the rifle) using cheap SP hunting bullets. next I'll try the box of 150gr SMKs and then maybe see what happens using up the last 15 or so 175 grainers i have on hand.
In the two months that have elapsed since i last replied to this thread, I've tossed the powder and the PPU cases that were used for the loads in question, and started fresh.
I have started over with 150 pieces of brand new winchester brass, 2 and a half boxes (250 total) of 150gr bullets, divided between 100 fresh and 50 left over Hornady interlocks and 100 Sierra 150gr SMKs , and a fresh pound of IMR 4895. so far i am quite pleased with the results, I'm getting mostly sub-MOA groups (and the ones that are larger are ME not the load or the rifle) using cheap SP hunting bullets. next I'll try the box of 150gr SMKs and then maybe see what happens using up the last 15 or so 175 grainers i have on hand.
Steve Marshall
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The reason the bolt was hard to lift was due to high pressure as evinced by the "shiny" spot on the left cartridge at PU and the second cartridge where the U is partially obliterated. The load you used would not do this. Unless the powder was not 4895, and I suspect this is the case, just by the way you worded post #6, then you could easily experience high pressures.
atblis
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I have a Winchester 308 that if I use soft brass in it, it gets sticky. As long as I use known good quality brass... no problems.
Maybe you should have contacted IMR? I wonder if they would have been curious to test some of your powder.
Maybe you should have contacted IMR? I wonder if they would have been curious to test some of your powder.
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Detritus
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at this point I doubt not only that they would want to test the powder (I did get good or at least trouble free batches of .223 and .303Brit out of that same pound of powder), but that it even was the powder at fault.
looking back on it I had indcations of "something wrong" with the Brass/factory ammo from the very beginning. I just happened to have a second, mechanical, issue that kind of hid at least one of the "soft brass" signs (slightly overlong scope base screw was interfering with both loading and extraction). But ALL my ammo related issues with this rifle occured with the Prvi Partizan ammo/brass. Also looking back, I did not experience any of these issues when using that same powder in the 20 pieces of winchester I had on hand at the time, nor in the 10-15 pieces of Lake City I tried. This whole thing came about because I ONLY had those 20pcs of Winchester and 10-15 LC, but had 140pcs of the PPU brass, and THOSE gave me trouble.
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