What Power for Long Range

[Varminterror]

Known distance shooting is remarkably simple compared to variant distance shooting. It really doesn't matter if a guy uses Mil/Mil or MOA/MOA, but the shooter needs to have the same units used for reticle graduation as is used for their turrets. Where you live in the US also makes a considerable difference as well - I've shot out East where I could dial my wind call and only need to shift a click or two throughout the day - when I shoot in Kansas, I might change 3-4mil, sometimes more, over the course of an hour. Most guys dial for range and hold wind, so having a graduated reticle makes life much, much easier. I've also noticed, most guys who are starting out will live in inches, so if a guy buys a Mil/MOA scope (example: mil-dot reticle with 1/4MOA adjustments), they convert mils to inches, then to MOA... Takes forever on paper... But if you run MOA/MOA or Mil/Mil, you get to live and breath in that same unit.

So when a coyote comes out at 800yrds, but is coming in, I can dial for 500-600, then hold over for 800, plus whatever wind hold. As the dog comes in, I can simply slide my reticle where it needs to be, no math, no unit conversions, nothing - just glance down at my field card and double check my come-ups as he crosses different ranges.

Mil/Mil makes for smaller numbers, which is nice, but the biggest advantage of mil/mil is that all of us who are serious about long range shooting use milliradians, so when you start working with other shooters and spotters, you'll be far faster on the gun when you both speak the same language. I'm coaching 2 guys right now who are running MOA/MOA optics, they're doing great, but it does take extra time for us to communicate, and shooting in Kansas, it can take them long enough to convert such they miss the wind condition. When I put them on one of my rifles with MIL/MIL, my first language, shot calling goes a lot faster.

Which brings up something I neglected to mention before... Your shooting skill will develop MUCH faster if you have a spotter (preferably a skilled and experienced spotter). When you're shooting a foolhearty heavy recoiling round like the Mosin, you won't be calling your own shots, so having a spotter to call your shots is incredibly valuable. A shot fired downrange with no feedback is wasted. Not very many, if any, guys get really good at long range shooting without a spotter. Frankly, a good spotter can make a mediocre shooter look like a pro. Even if it's just a shooting buddy - or even your girlfriend - who doesn't know any more than you do, at least they'll be able to spot impacts. Great spotters live by trace, which is a developed skill. Shooting alone with a mosin is almost a guarantee you won't be able to call your own shots - so find a spotter.

 

[Walkalong]

Your shooting skill will develop MUCH faster if you have a spotter (preferably a skilled and experienced spotter)

Absolutely.

 

[Bart B.]

You don't go from 80 to 800+ yards without a huge amount of practice time and doing it in incremental distances

I disagree with that popular opinion.

I've seen several folks start their competitive shooting at 1000 yards with good equipment and technique do very well their first time at such ranges. Even if they've never shot at any range past 100 yards and only with rimfire 22's. 100 yards with 22's equates well with 30 caliber's at 1000. You just have to hold still 3 times as long after the sear releases the firing pin on rimfire rifles than centerfires.

 

[Bart B.]

When you're shooting a foolhearty heavy recoiling round like the Mosin, you won't be calling your own shots,

You can look in your spotting scope after calling a fired shot and see the bullet trace and impact at 1000 yards with a Mosin. It's the same as shooting 308 Win ammo as both have about 1.5 second time of flights for that range.

 

[cdb1]

I disagree with that popular opinion.

I've seen several folks start their competitive shooting at 1000 yards with good equipment and technique do very well their first time at such ranges. Even if they've never shot at any range past 100 yards and only with rimfire 22's. 100 yards with 22's equates well with 30 caliber's at 1000. You just have to hold still 3 times as long after the sear releases the firing pin on rimfire rifles than centerfires.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Bart B.]

We'll have to agree to disagree.

What in my remarks is the basis for your disagreement?

 

[cdb1]

What in my remarks is the basis for your disagreement?

Duh. I stated basically that a person should learn to shoot at much shorter distances than 1,000 yards. You stated you've seen people start at 1,000 and do well. My disagreement with you is self evident. Posture and pose all you want(I'm sure you will) but I believe it much better to start at 100 yards vs 1,000.

 

[Walkalong]

With the right kind of support I don't see why someone couldn't start at 1000 yards. It would no doubt be a stiffer learning curve, but with a good mentor, a good spotter, and the right coaching it should be doable.

 

[Bart B.]

with a good mentor, a good spotter, and the right coaching it should be doable.

Yes. And some folks grasp the concepts, understand the principles then master their execution faster than others.

One does well at long range faster with a very accurate rifle and ammo. They'll instantly know the wide shots were their errors. With lesser quality stuff, they'll have a hard time learning to dope the wind. Calling shots with inaccurate gear is usually a waste of time.

 

[Rollis R. Karvellis]

I to am getting into the long range game slowly also. I would suggest the SWFA 10x Mil/Mil, but if you find one in MOA/MOA you will have no problem. Don't forget for decades snipers of all flavors have used Mil/MOA with pretty good success.


.300 RUM with a SWFA 10x Mil/Mil. This one is meant for shoot pass 1 mile, but I need to get it able to shoot at 100 yards first. Once it is ready I will be moving up to a variable with high power, but the movement of the knobs will be the most important part.


The Mossberg has the SWFA 10x Mil/MOA which will be a little more difficult for me to use at this time of my learning curve, but not unusable. This mil-dot is on clearance was supposed to be Mil/Mil but they shipped a Mil/MOA. Because I had several things going on I decided to go ahead and use it. The rifle won't be used for anything past 500 yards give or take.

 

[Walkalong]

With lesser quality stuff, they'll have a hard time learning to dope the wind. Calling shots with inaccurate gear is usually a waste of time.

Yep.

 

[Mn Fats]

I've seen several folks start their competitive shooting at 1000 yards with good equipment and technique do very well their first time at such ranges. Even if they've never shot at any range past 100 yards and only with rimfire 22's.

I don't doubt it can't be done but you've seen "several" people start at 1000 yards even if they've never fired past 100 yards, and only firing rimfires? Who are these people who've never shot to 100 but started a 1000? What I got out of cdb1's post was gradually practice before you jump into the the "..1500 yard" game.

 

[redbullitt]

Buy once cry once. No need to overspend, but you do need to spend a bit to get quality enough to work well that far out. Shooting the long shot is hard enough without having to fight equipment.

Cheaper scopes may not hold up, focus properly, have accurate reticles, or track properly. ALL those are killer at range. Heck, those are bad news at 100 yards lol.

Depending on what you are doing there are options. Vortex scopes do pretty well any time I have used them. Nightforce, SB, USO etc are all top tier, but you can get it done without going that route.

A leupold mk 4 will serve you well without breaking the bank. They can be found pretty cheaply if you do not mind going used. Their LRT or ERT models have all served me well. They have their issues, but the will get the job done.

Make sure to get a good mounting system too. Good scope in junk rings/base winds up being a junk scope. A junk scope plus a great rifle equals JUNK rifle.

 

[Davek1977]

''some Mosins are .5 MOA guns.''.......and well, some women are born looking like Rhianna or your hottie of choice.....it doesn't mean the AVERAGE Mosin is a .5MOA rifle....IS yours? What other rifles LIKE yours may be capable of on their best day is absolutely no indication of what your rifle will shoot like on an average day, or ANY day for that matter. I agree with the others...unless there's information you aren't including, putting a high dollar, long range scope on a Mosin is likely to cause more frustration than it cures, and while the round may still be supersonic, putting it on target at 1k plus, with a Mosin, is going to take a LOT more than just a quality scope

 

[Bart B.]

Who are these people who've never shot to 100 but started a 1000?

Folks who used top quality stuff loaned to them by top classified competitors who gave them some help starting out. They all had all the right stuff to apply what they were instructed to do.

I've done that with a few, one who shot his brand new Weatherby made 300 Wby Mag with hunting scope who sprayed 20 shots all over the 72" square target paper at 1000 in his first time in any high power match. His score keeper helped him learn how to dive in his spotting scope to see his sighter shots' impact to get on paper for the individual match. Gave him my rifle and ammo to shoot the "High - Low" team match we shot in then instructed him on how to sling up, load, shoulder, aim then shoot the best way for accuracy. He kept all 20 fired shots inside the 30" 9 ring, 14 shots in the 20" 10 ring, and 9 shots in the 10" X ring. Other's have done the same with new shooters.

In most sports, these folks are often dubbed "naturals" because they have all the right stuff to learn quickly from experts. figure things out then apply their skills and knowledge to do all the right stuff.

 

[jmar]

I went on a shooting trip yesterday and shot out to 1000 yards, I was surprised that 1000 yards isn't actually that far. The 10x scope I was using was a cheap one but still clearly showed the target. So I have decided the scope I will get is a SWFA fixed 16x Mil/Mil, the 20x or higher won't be needed for now. As for beginers hitting 1000 yard targets it is definitely possible, however it usually consists guessing then missing then repeating that process until you get dialed in. The real skill in long range shooting is doing all the ballistics quickly in your head to pull off a first round hit. I'd say shooting 1000 yards is something easy to learn but extremely hard to master. The way I felt while shooting 1000 yards for the first time yesterday was similar to zeroing a scope. Shoot, have a spotter check for the hit, then just roughly turn the knobs until you're on steel. Things like that aren't done in competitions or a military environment hence the difficulty. If I had a trained spotter and an actual scope I think I would have had much more fun. I will have to find someone who can spot for me someday.

 

[Walkalong]

I just wish I had somewhere close to shoot 1000 yards.

 

[Jim Watson]

My LR friend says there is not a public 1000 yard range in Alabama, the state championship has to be held in Tennessee.

 

[jmar]

I am lucky to have that range, but i recently read that you can go shoot on any public land, and on the way to the range i eyeballed tons of neat spots. In the future i'm going to get a steel torso target, a laser rangefinder, and just drive out and stick the steel somewhere, get back in the truck drive to a good shooting spot and have fun. I spotted spots that are miles long so i can push my way out as far as i can see. Then again i live in Montana so i'm not sure the laws and public lands of Alabama.

 

[Walkalong]

We have less flat and more trees.

But the spaces are out there if you can find a friendly land owner. I have a small property and can shoot 100 yards on it. The trees, the terrain, and the inability to get dirt in the back limit the distance I can shoot. I shoot across a natural drain where I have another 40 to 50 feet of hill and trees above the impact point. Plus I can get dirt there to help stop bullets. One trailer load at a time, no big truck, but at least I can get it there.

 

[Bart B.]

Shoot, have a spotter check for the hit, then just roughly turn the knobs until you're on steel. Things like that aren't done in competitions

Yes, they are; at least for NRA high power matches on bullseye targets at ranges past 600 yards. It's common for the score keeper to watch the first bullets shot by a competitor to help him get on target. These are the sighters; at long range in NRA and military Interservice matches, most courses of fire in individual long range matches allow unlimited sighters and then 20 rounds for record shots for the 30 minute (typical) time limit. No help allowed for record shots; you're on your own for them.

One can dive into his spotting scope after firing a 30 caliber magnum to watch (clearly) the bullet hit the backstop. Yes, gotta be quick 'cause that happens about 1.4 second after firing.

 

[Varminterror]

Shoot, have a spotter check for the hit, then just roughly turn the knobs until you're on steel. Things like that aren't done in competitions or a military environment hence the difficulty

Wrong on both counts. Military "snipers" taking these long range shots have spotters calling shots, as do shooters in the majority of long range competitions.

Some competitions even have electronic target displays which give the shooter instant feedback of their impacts.

Were you ever a military sniper and have you ever competed in long range matches of any kind?

 

[Dog Soldier]

We have gongs set up at varying distances on the Open Range East of town. They are arranged from 100 to 2,500 Meters. The "307" Long Range Club has a 1 mile range.
I shoot a standard M-1 Garand .06 at the 600 Meter gongs. It is not as easy to hit these targets as one might think.

 

[jmar]

Wrong on both counts. Military "snipers" taking these long range shots have spotters calling shots, as do shooters in the majority of long range competitions.

Some competitions even have electronic target displays which give the shooter instant feedback of their impacts.

Were you ever a military sniper and have you ever competed in long range matches of any kind?

I'm aware they have spotters obviously, i said they can't employ the sloppy technique i did. They need to do ballistics first because in some competitions and military scenarios you only have one shot or you're out. Generally people start to run when a bullet comes whizzing past their face.

 

[Varminterror]

I asked THIS question:

Were you ever a military sniper and have you ever competed in long range matches of any kind?

Because you've made many statements in this and other threads which suggest NOT, but then make statements like this:

I'm aware they have spotters obviously, i said they can't employ the sloppy technique i did. They need to do ballistics first because in some competitions and military scenarios you only have one shot or you're out. Generally people start to run when a bullet comes whizzing past their face.

Which suggest you do have experience in these arenas.

Since you don't, I'll point you in a couple directions:

1) You are correct, these folks have real experience and knowledge, so they don't have to throw bullets blindly. Most of have a considerably well managed DOPE book, which makes "doing ballistics first" a pretty quick study. But life isn't always that easy. Hopefully you had the sense to run off a ballistic table before you went out last week, OR at least had the sense to catalog your DOPE for that rifle for next time.

2) Competitive shooters in long range matches almost ALL get sighting shots on the day of the match, whether as sighters at the beginning of each string, or during a sighting session at the beginning of the day. Some formats don't, but most do. Even in formats which don't allow sighters, the shooter makes calls and corrections for every shot. Read up on, or since you're of the younger variety, search youtube for "Shot Ahead, Shot Behind method Service Rifle" and you'll no doubt find multiple videos of how to call shots and make adjustments based on where the last shot landed throughout a string. The only competitions I've heard of where "one miss and you're out" applies is KYL or cold bore stages in PRS type matches - and these almost uniformly have sighting sessions in the morning before the match - other competitions are almost always strings of fire, where the shooter can modify hold if their initial calls were found less than ideal.

3) Military snipers aren't always 'one shot, one kill." One particular instance of note is the current world's longest sniper kill by Col. Harrison - he took 9 shots to walk his impacts onto target before taking out two machine gunners at 2707yrds.