What Power for Long Range

[bangswitch]

Yea I will be shooting a Mosin Nagant, so the point at which it hits the transonic barrier is probably around 1100 or so. But I plan on eventually upgrading to a 6.5 CM, 300 WM, or some other mid-range caliber eventually that can hit the 1500 mark then I'd transplant the scope from the Mosin onto it. But sadly i'm just to poor to be buying a $2500 scope, some day i will. But for now i need to save that money for an actual gun. And as I said in my previous comment I need a mildot measurement system scope. I'm not trying to get sub MOA groups this will just be my learning rifle and scope. Thanks for the comment

Then go with something like the Vortex Viper HS-T. It's 2nd focal plane, MOA/MOA reticle and turrets, you don't HAVE to have mildot; just remember, one mil =3.38 MOA, or 1 MOA =0.296 mil.. What you DO need is a reticle with lots of elevation adjustment (this scope has over 32MOA available with a flat mount, good for about 900 yards on my rifle without holdover, a good bit less with a Mosin), plus an elevated scope mount to give you even more elevation adjustment. It will transfer well to a better gun later, don't worry about whether it's "strong" enough for the recoil a 300 Win-Mag or Lapua might have. Vortex's warranty is lifetime and bullet proof, pardon the pun. Even this scope outclasses the abilities of a Mosin at those ranges, but it will serve you well on much better rifles later. I suppose the downside, if you want to call it one, is the 2nd focal plane limits you to 18x of the 24x available if you want accurate range estimation using the reticle markings. I found 18x to be plenty at 1100 yards. A 18" square target at 1100 yards is about 1-1/2 MOA.

I'm shooting a 6.5 Grendel past 1100 yards (and yes, it's still supersonic, barely) using this scope. I just added a 20MOA Warne scope mount so I should now have over 50MOA elevation adjustment available, which will cover me to 1200 yards without holdover. And amen to having a spotter at those distances, even better when they can do good wind calls.


And to answer the question that was asked about who makes a scope with mildot reticle and MOA turrets, Millett does. I have one. I have to dig out my Mildot Master every time I shoot the dang thing past a couple hundred yards.

 

[Bart B.]

I just added a 20MOA Warne scope mount so I should now have over 50MOA elevation adjustment available, which will cover me to 1200 yards without holdover.

Adding a 20 MOA rail doesn't increase the elevation adjustment range. It only centers it 20 MOA down. Elevation limits are limited by scope mechanics. Doesn't matter how the scope's mounted. If yours has a 32 MOA limit, it stays at that amount but centered 20 MOA lower in angle parallel to the rail.

There's typically more adjustment range up and right of a scopes mechanical zero; sometimes 20% to 40% more. Mechanical zero is not midpoint in the adjustment range. It's when the scopes inner tube is centered on the scopes optical axis; that's on the axis of the front lens center back to the rear lens center and both are fixed on the outer tube.

 

[Sav .250]

Give the "Natchez" site a look see if you haven`t already. They should have what your looking for.
Good prices as well.

 

[bangswitch]

Adding a 20 MOA rail doesn't increase the elevation adjustment range. It only centers it 20 MOA down. Elevation limits are limited by scope mechanics. Doesn't matter how the scope's mounted. If yours has a 32 MOA limit, it stays at that amount but centered 20 MOA lower in angle parallel to the rail.

There's typically more adjustment range up and right of a scopes mechanical zero; sometimes 20% to 40% more. Mechanical zero is not midpoint in the adjustment range. It's when the scopes inner tube is centered on the scopes optical axis; that's on the axis of the front lens center back to the rear lens center and both are fixed on the outer tube.

I understand all that, but the EFFECTIVE and USABLE adjustment range increases because you're able to use the otherwise wasted adjustment in elevation. With a flat rail, my Viper's 100 yard zero was a couple of clicks over three full turns from the bottom of my adjustment range, that's around 36 MOA of adjustment "wasted" to get a zero at a minimal target distance. With the 20MOA mount aiming the scope downward by that amount, my 100 yard zero is now less than 1/2 a turn of my elevation adjustment from bottomed out, so I now have an added 20+ MOA to the 32MOA of elevation that I used to have with a flat rail. However you describe it, without an elevated scope mount, most scopes won't give the necessary adjustment to account for drop at 1000 yards or more, and that's with a fairly flat-shooting cartridge. Put one on a "rainbow shooter" and it's doubtful you could get past 750-800 yards without having to hold over. On my recent long range day, I was holding over 4 MOA at 1000 yards, and 14 MOA at 1150, and by 1200 I had run out of scope entirely (flat scope mount). That's on a rifle caliber that's still supersonic at 1100 yards and is shooting flatter than a .308 at those ranges. I seriously doubt the 7.62x54R is anywhere near that. I have a 91/30, so I have experience with what it will do....or won't do.

 

[Bart B.]

Those Vortex Viper HS-T scopes have about 70 MOA adjustment range; so says their specs. I just checked their web site's data.

I've no idea what their limits are from the optical-mechanical (o-m) zero. I'll bet two giggles and a snicker the limit is not equal in all directions. If 70% of elevation up from o-m zero (49 MOA) is reality, that falls in the range I've seen in the scopes I've measured.

 

[jmar]

Then go with something like the Vortex Viper HS-T. It's 2nd focal plane, MOA/MOA reticle and turrets, you don't HAVE to have mildot; just remember, one mil =3.38 MOA, or 1 MOA =0.296 mil.. What you DO need is a reticle with lots of elevation adjustment (this scope has over 32MOA available with a flat mount, good for about 900 yards on my rifle without holdover, a good bit less with a Mosin), plus an elevated scope mount to give you even more elevation adjustment. It will transfer well to a better gun later, don't worry about whether it's "strong" enough for the recoil a 300 Win-Mag or Lapua might have. Vortex's warranty is lifetime and bullet proof, pardon the pun. Even this scope outclasses the abilities of a Mosin at those ranges, but it will serve you well on much better rifles later. I suppose the downside, if you want to call it one, is the 2nd focal plane limits you to 18x of the 24x available if you want accurate range estimation using the reticle markings. I found 18x to be plenty at 1100 yards. A 18" square target at 1100 yards is about 1-1/2 MOA.

I'm shooting a 6.5 Grendel past 1100 yards (and yes, it's still supersonic, barely) using this scope. I just added a 20MOA Warne scope mount so I should now have over 50MOA elevation adjustment available, which will cover me to 1200 yards without holdover. And amen to having a spotter at those distances, even better when they can do good wind calls.


And to answer the question that was asked about who makes a scope with mildot reticle and MOA turrets, Millett does. I have one. I have to dig out my Mildot Master every time I shoot the dang thing past a couple hundred yards.

Thanks for the comment but why get a 2nd focal plane scope and handicap myself?

 

[bangswitch]

Those Vortex Viper HS-T scopes have about 70 MOA adjustment range; so says their specs. I just checked their web site's data.

I've no idea what their limits are from the optical-mechanical (o-m) zero. I'll bet two giggles and a snicker the limit is not equal in all directions. If 70% of elevation up from o-m zero (49 MOA) is reality, that falls in the range I've seen in the scopes I've measured.

The 70 MOA is from bottomed out to topped out. One full turn is 12 MOA and it will do just shy of 6 full turns. The vertical reticle is graduated from center all the way to the bottom of the viewfinder, each mark is 2 MOA, so you have 30 MOA of holdover possible if your adjustment for elevation is maxed out. It doesn't really matter if the 'limit is not equal......'. because the mounted angle will determine how much is usable of the entire adjustment range. For most shooters, having 30 MOA of elevation adjustment is plenty. For calibers like .270, .308, .243, 30-06, etc. that's plenty of adjustment for out to 800 yards, anyway, if the gun has the legs to get that far. I could go to 900 (flat scope mount) before I need more than 30 MOA adjustment, but after that, I need more and more adjustment for less and less distance. With the 20 MOA mount, I can conceivably go past 1500 yards without holdover (I say conceivably because my ballistics chart for my load doesn't go past 1300 yards; drop at that range is, for me, 62 MOA.

To answer the OP's comment in post #56 about "handicapping himself" with a 2nd focal plane reticle, it's no handicap at all as long as you understand its limitation that the reticle is accurately dimensioned at only one magnification within its range. If you have a fixed power scope, it's always accurate, and on variable power, it's usually near or at the upper magnification limit. The 6-24x50 HST's reticle is accurate at 18X and is so marked. I found that I didn't need the extra 6X of magnification when shooting as far as my gun will practically reach, so I left it at 18X. The thing I do like about 2nd focal plane is that the reticle size does not change with magnification. The crosshairs remain thin; with 1st FP, the crosshairs thicken and the reticle enlarges with the image.

BTW, the Viper HST is available with MOA or Mrad reticle, and the turret adjustments correspond to the reticle graduation. It is a 2nd FP reticle. If you really want 1st FP, cough up another couple of hundred at least for whatever scope you want, they cost more. The HS-t 6-24x50 retails for $790, you can get it from Amazon for $639. The warranty is absolute and lifetime, and Vortex has excellent customer service.

 

[Jim Watson]

Seems strange, I remember when 2nd focal plane variables advertising "non-magnifying reticles" were the hot item. There was an early B&L variable with tapered crosshairs to make the 1st f.p. less obtrusive and the original Weaver V8 had a really strange reticle with three crosshairs in each direction. Aim with the center X at high power, just put the whole middle "basket" on target at low power.
Now a 1st focal plane variable scope is in style because reticle features for ranging and holdoff work at all powers.