What Priority Do You Place on Training?

[Kleanbore]

There are a few open threads here on S&T that discuss some upcoming training sessions, and one asking for help regarding carbine courses in Arizona. Unfortunately, these threads bring about less participation than they should, and sadly, they are not even visited with any frequency.

Those who have attended a good high performance training or self defense course can attest that the experience provide very valuable knowledge and skill development indeed.

If they do nothing else, good training courses make it crystal clear that shooting at targets at a range does not really provide the skill set or the mindset that one is likely to need should a real emergency, with its unpredictable and rapidly unfolding violence, ever arise.

Perhaps not everyone feels that he or she can travel far enough to attend one of the classses with Massad Ayoob and Marty Hayes, or Rangemaster in Memphis. There are other alternatives. Visit the S&T Library sticky--and let's use this opportunity to rev up the discussion a bit.

If one starts a thread on what kind of weapon to choose, or whether to carry an extra magazine, where to aim, or whether to "double tap", etc., the board will light up, figuratively speaking. Frankly, though, one will get much better answers from experience in a good training course than in a keyboard discussion, and some of the poorer comments would likely not come up.

Now that better weather is moving into much of the country, it's time to take a new look at our priorities, if we are really serious about being able to protect ourselves and our families. Let us know your plans and recent experiences, and where you intend to take or have taken training.

 

[bratch]

I'll start it out.

Recent courses I have attended are: Jason Falla 3-day Carbine/Handgun and the Rangemaster Advanced Instructor course. I was signed up for SouthNarc's ECQC but the weather caused it to be cancelled.

Up coming for the year I have the Rangemaster Tac Conference, Pistol-Training Aim Fast Hit Fast, a Mike Seeklander skills class, Rangemaster 2 day shotgun, and if permitted Louis Awerbuck Shotgun 1 and Rangemaster Dynamic Marksmanship. I'd like to get another Medical class and a driving course in if possible. I'll end up at several courses from local trainers either helping out or shooting as well.

I've enjoyed training since I started shooting pistols, I bought my first pistol the day after I turned 21, 3 months later I was attending Rangemaster's Combative Pistol I, its been a downhill spiral since then.

Several of the trainers I have trained with have had students successfully use what they've learned to defend their lives this knowledge creates an ease knowing that what you've learned works. The classes introduce a stress level from being among peers that while not near as great as what one would experience in a fight for your life it is definatley more stress than standing on a square range slowly shooting paper. I am forced to run drills in their time limits and accuracy standards using skills I may not be good at or enjoy so would neglect on my own. All of these items add up to an experience that is hard to replicate on a standard range plus you will be able to incorprate what you've learned into your normal practice sessions to increase their quality.

I've met alot of great people in classes and have learned more than I can remember. It has also gave me the knowledge to seperate the wheat from the chaff. I will continue to attend training as long as time and finances allow.

 

[Robert]

I would very much like to take a rifle/ carbine, pistol, and shotgun course or courses. The main factor for me is money. Professional instructors are worth what they charge, I just can not afford the fee.

So my only "training" plan this summer is to get out to as many matches and push myself to be the best shooter I can. I know Tactical Rifle matches are no replacement for a good instructor lead course, but something is better than nothing.

 

[bratch]

You might see if there is a local trainer that has classes that are cheaper. We have several local guys who are good instructors that you can get into for ~$100/day.

Another option for those needing to save money but wanting to train is to be a class host. If you can find a range that is suitable and available and host the class for an instructor it is customary for your spot to be comped. This is a win-win you save money and get to train with who you choose locally.

 

[hso]

All quality trainers are "local" depending upon where you live, but not all local trainers are quality trainers.

Be sure to carefully check that your local sources for training are good providers. You might be surprised by the fact that some big name trainers will acknowledge someone in your area as being a good source of training, but don't be surprised if the first known expert you ask doesn't provide a recommendation.

It is easier to spend money on a new toy than to spend the money on a course that takes time, effort and commitment to explore your personal "opportunities for improvement" and hone existing skills and new ones in the presence of others. It is also more difficult to show off your shiny new skills than the nifty new blaster. BUT nothing you'll spend your money on will return on investment more than a skilled knowledgeable trainer taking the time to make you a more skilled survivor.

 

[Jeff White]

I learned more from training that I paid for then I ever learned in any LE or military training I was sent to. That said; While I wouldn't trade a minute I have spent with Pat Rogers, Louis Awerbuck or Jim Crews (Jim taught me a lot about actually teaching on the range, not just running the range), I have learned a lot from instructors that no one ever heard of.

hso is right in that you have to be much more careful with a local instructor, but a little research should give you the information you need to make an informed choice.

The thing that struck me the first time I took some good training was how much I really didn't know about shooting.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I have to agree with Jeff, I developed a much better understanding of how to shoot better from classes I paid for out of my own pocket than any training I was sent to.

There is a huge difference between taking a class from a instructor and one from a teacher. The first shows you what to do and then corrects what you are doing wrong, the second explains how something is done, why it is done that way and then explains how each correction impacts what you are doing. When you have received instruction form a good teacher, you have enough understanding of the goal to practice and self-correct after the class.

My personal feeling is that you should seek out instruction right after you buy that first gun...if not before...before you even think about buying another. Incorrect habits you'll develop are much harder to correct after they have become ingrained in you shooting. Practice doesn't make perfect...it just makes permanent. What you would spend on another gun would be better applied toward training...and in the long run will save you money in ammo you'll spend trying to shoot accurately or to unlearn things you are not doing correctly.

One of my most rewarding teaching experience was with a 19 year old college student who wanted to learn to shoot a handgun. He saved up money, asked around and contacted me. I loaned him my guns and I explained how to shoot in terms he could understand. Within a couple of hours, he was placing rounds on target, shooting slowly, which overlapped each other...we were only about 7 yards away from the target. He had learned how to shoot, had developed the confidence to acquire (legally) a handgun and knew what he needed to do to continue to improve. All for much less than the cost of a gun or even 1k rounds of ammo.

I think everyone who chooses to own a gun for self-defense would be well served by taking a course to establish some fundamental skills in it operation...it is just the responsible thing to do

 

[bikerdoc]

You have to keep learning and practicing.

I have taken in the past, and have scheduled this year, classes in gun, carbine, knife, and cane.

Military and LEO training at the basic level is not enough. Although some of the advanced swat training was helpful.

It is also good to do informal training - read, study, discuss, and practice techniques with a group of trusted friends. exhange things you have learned.

 

[Deanimator]

I've been out of work for the last two years, so training took a very distant backseat to being able to live indoors.

I just got a job with no vacation or benefits, and was lucky to get that. Any training I take has to fit into those parameters, at least until I find something better.

 

[smince]

High Priority For Me

Hello, my name is Scott and I am a training junkie!

It is easier to spend money on a new toy than to spend the money on a course that takes time, effort and commitment to explore your personal "opportunities for improvement" and hone existing skills and new ones in the presence of others. It is also more difficult to show off your shiny new skills than the nifty new blaster. BUT nothing you'll spend your money on will return on investment more than a skilled knowledgeable trainer taking the time to make you a more skilled survivor.

Very true. Too many think just knowing how to shoot decently and owning the latest gun the magazines have written up somehow makes one prepared. A hardware solution to a software problem.

I fell into this pattern for years myself. Been CCW since 1983.

For years I didn't take any training, because of the cost and travel distance. A few years ago, there were suddenly many training options open in my area. Gabe Suarez did several traveling classes within an hour of me. Tiger McKee opened Shootrite about 30 miles away. And I found a local guy who is a very knowledgeable trainer.

However, if I had known what I know now, a lot of the money for DVD's or for ammo I sent needlessly downrange thinking I was training would have been put aside until I had enough to take a quality class.

 

[AOK]

I started carrying in 2005 for self defense purposes. However, in reality I didn't carry that often and through 2007 I was spending much more money on guns rather than training and ammo.

Then in 2008 I joined a firearm message board and was specifically reading up in the training and legal sections. Right away I was learning a lot and realized I was not prepared to do what a husband and father needs to do for his family, provide AND PROTECT.

As Jeff mentioned, after several hours of initial private instruction I quickly realized how little I knew. I started selling my guns that just sat in my closet or only shot a couple times a year and put it toward ammo and training. Since 2008 I have been taking 2-3 defensive firearm classes and I supplement that with a little private instruction in between. In the past year I have also been buying a couple dvd's and books. Just trying to learn, find out what works best for me, and soak up as much as I can. Since 2008 training and continuing to learn have become my #1 hobby without question. Fortunately it's a hobby that could save me and/or my loved ones lives one day.

 

[Uteridge]

I have had a lot of opportunities to conduct various types of training. The best course that I have ever taken was at Gunsite Academy in Arizona. The course was taught by Ed Stock who tailored the course towards the military audience he had in that course. I have no problems getting to courses. It is easy for me to justify because I know there is a very good chance that I will be in combat again next year so anything I can learn from a course could save my life in Afghanistan.

I can't say for sure because I am not in the situation, and most of the shooters I know have been to at least one tactical shooting course, but I would guess that the main reason that shooters who carry a gun for CCW don't go to courses is because they never really expect to use their gun. To be honest the chances that someone will have to use their weapon in self defense is very small so it is easy for your average CCW holder to look in the mirror and say that they are better off with the gun than without the gun so they are already far enough ahead of the power curve for someone who doesn't live a particularly dangerous lifestyle. In essence, they odds are already in their favor, they have made the odds farther in their favor by carrying a gun in the first place, so why should shell out a bunch of money to go to a course that teaches something they will almost certainly never need to know. So they gamble with their life that it won't happen to them.

The other possibility is that the just don't know what they don't know. They go to the range, put pretty little holes on a man shaped target, and say to themselves "look I can take care of myself if the situation ever comes up;" then they go about their business. How many of us had no idea what we didn't know before we went to our first professional course? Even military and law enforcement training does not all cover the basics of personal defense. I have some skills that would help me in a civilian gunfight but I doubt that my squad patrolling tactics are going to be of much use. Most people think they already know what they need to know to defend themselves and they probably won't think anything differently until they either get into that situation and find themselves to not be adequately prepared or until they go to a course that shows them how little they really know.

Another possible issue is that some people look at the cost of a course and see that they could buy another gun, or two, with that money. Many people are just gun collectors that happen to carry guns or, they focus too much on the tool and not enough on the one wielding the tool. Like Cooper said, "Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician." Most people buy themselves a Glock and think they are armed; then they look at going to LFI or Gunsite and think to themselves that with $1000 they would be better off getting two more Glocks, one in .40 and one in .45, to go with the 9mm they already have. What they end up with is 3 paperweights instead of 1 because they don't spend the time or money on training or ammo.

 

[DAP90]

I’ve wanted to take a defensive handgun training course but there a few things that are, not stopping me exactly, but making me procrastinate.

The courses aren’t cheap and the skills learned are perishable. I could invest in hundreds of dollars, or more, of training but after the course, where do I practice the skills learned? I don’t know of any public range that allows draw from the holster and fire, shooting while moving, use of cover, double taps, etc.

Shooting is as much a social event for me as anything. The money spent on training buys a lot of range time and I only have a finite amount to spend each year. It may not be as useful as training but it’s better than nothing and I have the opportunity to hang out with friends.

I only own two handguns; a Bersa 380 and a Browning Buckmark. I can just see showing up to a training course where everyone else has a $2,000 1911 and having to endure a lecture from the instructor about the inadequacy of the 380. Maybe that would never happen but the thought is a turnoff.

I guess ultimately, having never taken such course, I’m still skeptical about the benefits. What will I learn? How useful will it be to me? Some of the things I’ve read about the training aren’t even remotely interesting to me. Such as the idea of standing downrange while fellow trainees shoot at targets next to you.

However, this year I told myself I wasn’t buying any guns outside of unlooked for once in a lifetime deals. Any money spent on firearms would be spent on ammo and shooting time. That could include training if the right opportunity came along.

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

I would like to find time and $$ to attend some sort of 'training' past what military and police I've had - which the police wasn't much just instruction and practice at the qualifying range.
I do get a chance a couple - 3 times a year to go camping in a remote area that allows handgun practice (however the owners frown on hi-powered rifle) and I find myself actually haveing to 'start from scratch'. shooting off a 'rest' of sorts to check my sights and bullet strikes. we do practice a good bit at 50' or so though which is a good thing. usually the second day I'm polishing off some rust so to speak and we set up our 'shoot & scoot' targets which is an immense help (and challenge when we go weak handed on).
there is usually 4-5 of us and about every chambering of popular handgun from .22LR (we have shot out to 100yds on cans) on up to .454Casull (not much of that one though) and even .50AE (as before)
mostly .32acp - .45acp and such

 

[Frank Ettin]

I'm a big believer in training and education and learning -- in everything. It seems I've been going to school my whole life. Even during the course of my career, I continued to take classes in my field.

And that goes for shooting as well. I (and my wife) even started my shooting life with a Basic Handgun class. After that, I started taking classes regularly. I always learn something new (and they're fun).

When I started training I more fully realized how much I had to learn. And there really is no good substitute for a good instructor observing what one is doing and commenting. I know I can learn more, better and faster by taking classes and getting the objective feedback of an instructor, than I ever could on my own.

Training also teaches you what and how to practice. As 9mmepiphany wrote, "...Practice doesn't make perfect...it just makes permanent...." If one practices the wrong things, he just becomes very good at doing doing the wrong things.

Will I ever benefit from my training? True, it's very unlikely that I will actually need my gun to defend myself or someone else. But if I do, I don't know what I will need to be able to do to solve the problem. The better prepared I am, the luckier I'll be. And if I'm going to keep a gun for self defense (and carry one whenever I legally can), I might as well know how to use it. As Jeff Cooper used to say, "It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully."

Beyond that, I learn something about myself every time I take a class, and that has value to me beyond guns and shooting.

...The best course that I have ever taken was at Gunsite Academy in Arizona. The course was taught by Ed Stock...

Ed (with Dave Harris, Ed Head and Jeff Cooper) was one of the instructors for the first class I took at Gunsite.

 

[Grey_Mana]

Who is a good instructor, within a 4 hour drive of southern PA?

 

[9mmepiphany]

The courses aren’t cheap and the skills learned are perishable. I could invest in hundreds of dollars, or more, of training but after the course, where do I practice the skills learned? I don’t know of any public range that allows draw from the holster and fire, shooting while moving, use of cover, double taps, etc.

Any skills are perishable if you don't practice, but there are skills that you'd learn from a Fundamantals class which can even be used at a static range to improve your shooting. The most important would be correct trigger management and learning to see the sights faster (there really is a right and wrong way to see aligned sights)

I only own two handguns; a Bersa 380 and a Browning Buckmark. I can just see showing up to a training course where everyone else has a $2,000 1911 and having to endure a lecture from the instructor about the inadequacy of the 380. Maybe that would never happen but the thought is a turnoff.

While I've never had a .380 show up for a group class, I've never had a $2k 1911 show up either. However, I've seen several ~$300 Sig P6s, ~$400 Glock G19s and Sig 226s

I individual instruction, I've worked with folks shooting .380s, .25s as well as .22lrs. The skills you learn are the same and directly transferable to different calibers

I guess ultimately, having never taken such course, I’m still skeptical about the benefits. What will I learn? How useful will it be to me? Some of the things I’ve read about the training aren’t even remotely interesting to me. Such as the idea of standing downrange while fellow trainees shoot at targets next to you.

This is what Uteridge and Jeff White were referring to. Not knowing what you don't know. The first thing that folks learn in classes and the first step to learning is discovering what is possible. I'm still surprised that anyone, who considers themselves a good shooter, can't shoot into 2" at 5-7 yards freehand when taking their time

I'll cite a sampling of things that students of past classes have noted as eye opening. Bear in mind that this isn't a high-speed tactical class, but a Practical Fundamentals class...the basis shooting skills you should have to really get the most out of a tactical shooting class.

1. Learning how to consistently shoot 1" dots
2. Learning to fire your first shot accurately just as your arms reach extension rather than holding you gun out
3. Learning that a DA first shot is neither slower nor less accurate than a SA one
4. Learning to accurately shoot at a rate of 4-5 shots a second without slapping the trigger. When learning basic skills, slapping the trigger is not any faster and far less accurate.
5. Learning the to correctly draw from a holster..a skill often taken for granted
6. Learning to efficiently change mags...no fumbling or misses
7. Learning efficient target transitions...yes there are different ways
8. Learning to manage, rather than control, recoil through the grip. It makes shooting more comfortable and is easier on your joints.
9. Learning how to efficiently see the sights...yes, there are different ways to see your sights
10. Confirming all the training by hitting a playing card edgewise and cutting it in half. Everyone in class does this and it has been done in both SA and DA.

We even give homework to teach you to dryfire correctly...yes, there is a right and wrong way depending on which skill you are trying to improve.

Only you can decide if these skills could be useful to you or if you think you can learn them by yourself

 

[Frank Ettin]

Who is a good instructor, within a 4 hour drive of southern PA?

Massad Ayoob is doing a MAG40 (his first level class) in Harrisburg on 8 - 11 September.

 

[Nushif]

I can just see showing up to a training course where everyone else has a $2,000 1911 and having to endure a lecture from the instructor about the inadequacy of the 380. Maybe that would never happen but the thought is a turnoff.

I kinda get this argument as well.

I'm going to attend my first real class here soon, but I am in the unique situation that I know the instructor and I know that he isn't hung up on any specific platform of firepower.

I do have to be honest though that I wouldn't expect a warm welcome at like ... Gunsite or something with my low cap 9mm E9 in a paddle holster ... well with anything other than a 1911 in a namebrand holster.

I do think that a personal "love" of the gun one has is an important factor in shooting well. As people who are comfortable doing something are more likely to be relaxed.

Can someone enlighten us as to the climate in these big name academies hen it comes to stuff like that?

 

[bratch]

The courses aren’t cheap and the skills learned are perishable.

They are perishable and you may not be able to run them at the same speed you did on Sunday afternoon of a Sunday afternoon class but you will still have the knowledge.

Last Friday I shot a small match in Memphis, one of the stages was WHO and I had a stovepipe due to a weak grip. Last September I took a one day "Survival shooting class" that was 8 hours of one handed draws, malfunction clearances and shooting from the ground, if I have practiced weakhand clearance since then it MAY have been one time but I can't remember it. Anyway at the match I noticed the stoppage and executed a perfect Tap,Rack,Bang using my belt to work the slide, it was basically an automatic response. Did I complete the clearance at the same speed I had after 8 hours of practice probably not but I knew how to clear it, did so and managed to shoot a good score. I may not have been able to do so without the previous class I had taken.

I've never seen an instructor turn somebody away or ridicule someone who had a RELIABLE and SAFE handgun. Many instructors have their pet guns for various reason but I haven't seen it affect their classes. Almost every student I see in classes is carrying a polymer pistol, I see very few 1911s and even fewer high end 1911s.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I do have to be honest though that I wouldn't expect a warm welcome at like ... Gunsite or something with my low cap 9mm E9 in a paddle holster ... well with anything other than a 1911 in a namebrand holster...

Not the case at all. When I took the handgun class at Gunsite, students were using all sorts of guns. We had a couple of LEOs in the class with there service Beretta 92s. There were Glocks and SIGs as well. A number of the students were using 1911s they were renting.

Your instructor might try to wean you away from a paddle holster, simply because some of them can get uncomfortable or lack security in heavy use. The point is performance and not price. Many of the instructor use various makes of kydex holsters that are not expensive.

...Can someone enlighten us as to the climate in these big name academies hen it comes to stuff like that?...

I haven't seen any gun or equipment snobbery at Gunsite. The issues are safety and reliability -- nothing else.

The instructors at Gunsite have, IME, always been professional. They have a strong desire to teach and to help. They want the students to learn and succeed, and they try hard to make that happen.

What matters most is safety.

 

[walking arsenal]

Its important to know that not all training needs to be done at a certified school. A passable amount of knowledge can be gleaned from doing basic drills on your own time.

Practicing reloads is one skill that comes to mind.

Presenting your gun and moving with it are a couple others.

That said. I attend a course at the Arrowhead firearms academy in Minnesota every five years to renew my CCW permit and my knowledge base. It's money well spent.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Its important to know that not all training needs to be done at a certified school. A passable amount of knowledge can be gleaned from doing basic drills on your own time.

That's exactly right! I've been insulted and vilified for stating this before, but over the long run you will learn more shooting steel plates on some unstructured range than you will in various courses. Again, over the long run...

I've taken so many courses over the years I can't begin to keep track. And I learned something at each one of them. I mean, each one was a valuable learning experience.
But... I also learned that each instructor and each school has some annoying little tweak that they've added to make their course special or new or improved or unique or whatever, and they'll shove that down your throat. The real basics don't change, and they'll be taught at any class.

When it's all over, you've really only had a few hours of actual shooting. And that's the problem. If you can't take that training and ingrain it, then it's not very valuable. You must be able to continue to shoot at a range that will allow you to have the freedom to shoot as you wish. Most of them won't, so (insult me if you please), but where you get really good is that old proverbial gravel pit where you can be by yourself to hang a few steel plates and shoot all day long, as often as you wish.

You absolutely can not maintain good handgun skills shooting down a lane at a paper silhouette, no matter how good the training you've had.

If you live in a place where you can't shoot in an unstructured fashion, then you'd better start competing in IDPA.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Massad Ayoob is doing a MAG40 (his first level class) in Harrisburg on 8 - 11 September.

That is a good introduction class

I do have to be honest though that I wouldn't expect a warm welcome at like ... Gunsite or something with my low cap 9mm E9 in a paddle holster ... well with anything other than a 1911 in a namebrand holster.

I think I attended my first non-LE class with a beatup Sig 226 in an Uncle Mike's injected plastic paddle holster and a mag carrier from Bianchi that I had left over from when I carried a Beretta 92.

I usually teach using a Blackhawk CQC Serpa paddle holster and still have the UM in my bag as a loaner for folks who show up with a Fobus

The only time I've even heard of instructors disparage a student's choice of gun, was school that advocates the use of the Glock for all occasions. I think it had more to do with the instructor's inability to teach a correct DA trigger pull than anything else.

The big school near you is the Firearms Academy of Seattle...which really isn't in Seattle...and I believe Massad Ayoob is bringing his Mag40 and Mag80 classes there later this year

 

[Frank Ettin]

Its important to know that not all training needs to be done at a certified school. A passable amount of knowledge can be gleaned from doing basic drills on your own time.

Practicing reloads is one skill that comes to mind.

Presenting your gun and moving with it are a couple others....

Yes and no.

Practicing and doing basic skills on your own is vital. As others have mentioned, these things are perishable skills.

On the other hand, you do want to be practicing doing things properly. I've seen folks before spending a lot of time practicing poor presentations and inefficient reloads. So they were becoming experts at poor presentations and inefficient reloads. With some suggestions and feedback from a qualified instructor (not necessary a certified school, whatever that is), they could have been spending the same time practicing good presentations and efficient reloads.