BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
Grey Mana said:
Plenty. Where is "southern PA? It takes about 7 hours to drive across the entire southern border.
What Priority Do You Place on Training?
- Thread starter Kleanbore
- Start date
- Status
Plenty. Where is "southern PA? It takes about 7 hours to drive across the entire southern border.
Uteridge
Member
My experiences at Gunsite have been great. I shoot and carry a 1911 but when I attended a military/LE course at Gunsite we had people with Beretta's, 1911s, SIGs, Smith and Wesson M&P's, a Browning Hi Power, several with Springfield XD's, and quite a few Glocks. The instructors were not critical of anyone not carrying a 1911 and there was enough variety that there would have been no reason for anyone to feel out of place with anything short of a Jennings .32 ACP. You will be surprised to see that Gunsite sells Gunsite edition Smith and Wesson M&P's in their Pro Shop and you can go to their gunsmith on staff and get mods made to your Glock. They are truly accepting of all breeds of pistols. In my experience there was not 1911 snobbery at Gunsite...though they do teach more towards the 1911 than any other platform.
JohnBiltz
Member
I don't place a lot. I don't care about reloading drills since I don't normally carry a spare magazine. I don't look for trouble. I'm getting old and my body after 20 years of Airborne Infantry is older than I am, particularly my leg joints. There are times my eyes are bad enough I have trouble seeing my sights and this varies from day to day. I'd hate to sign up for an expensive course and not be able to see that day. What I know of most courses is what I've seen of courses on TV and so they are a little to hooah for me.
I do practice shooting and I do drills. What I'd like is a course for a guy who CCWs and is never going to kick a door again and doesn't want to. Where you draw from an inside the waist band or a pocket. Where the focus is breaking contact not closing with the enemy.
I do practice shooting and I do drills. What I'd like is a course for a guy who CCWs and is never going to kick a door again and doesn't want to. Where you draw from an inside the waist band or a pocket. Where the focus is breaking contact not closing with the enemy.
DAP90
Member
I always assumed these courses/classes were about this type of focus. I always figured the SWAT guys had their own department funded training and didn't need private courses.
I think that is the case in most instances. However, there are some schools out there that teach various techniques and tactics SRT guys use.
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"I always assumed these courses/classes were about this type of focus. I always figured the SWAT guys had their own department funded training and didn't need private courses."
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"I always assumed these courses/classes were about this type of focus. I always figured the SWAT guys had their own department funded training and didn't need private courses."
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
I wrote a piece on that a while back. "Training" means a lot of different things to everyone. Ahhh, here's the relevant quote:
Me said:
LEOs (even SWAT) and the military, do not generally get the kind of training most people think they get. A great many of them, when they decide they need to get serious do indeed go to the private sector for shooting and other forms of "tactical" training. Those courses are sometimes open to the general public and sometimes not. When not open to the public it is usually because the trainers recognize that the techniques being presented (building clearing as part of a team, arrest procedures, offensive military techniques, etc.) don't have any applicability for the non-sworn civilian/citizen.
But, for a "non-door-kicker"
)) (and let's assume, not a competitive shooter) training that falls under the headings of nos. 1, 2, 4, 5 is all very valuable, and certain to illustrate some of those, "I didn't know what I didn't know!", facets.smince
Member.
You don't need to fire any rounds to practice many of these skills. Dry fire/practice works all the memory right up until the shot is fired.
I'm a big believer in using a blow back AirSoft pistol similar to my EDC for much of my practice. I have access to a range that allows drawing, fire while moving etc. But I still do the majority of my drills in my garage or backyard.
Also if you can find a like-minded person, doing force-on-force against a living being with the AirSoft pistols can be eye-opening. You can find out what really works vs what just looks good on paper.
You will need to do live fire to keep in mind what actual recoil feels like and to reinforce basic skills.
sm
member
My take is: Prority is huge!
The truth is, I would not have survived a "work" I did had it not been for training.
I was born with a bulls-eye, on my back, and to some degree, still have one, and always will.
Now being honest, I have never attended a known training facility. My lessons and set ups, were private lessons. In the "industry" I was born into and spent decades doing what I did, I had those I respectfully refer to as "Mentors & Elders" . It would blow some minds as to whom some of these persons were, and what-all their training, real life experiences were.
Everyone of these persons are dead now, and I still miss them, every damn day. I am grateful to have been mentored, and to have worked with such persons. They "passed forward" to me, so much.
Now I am no big deal, but the way it worked was, I in turn passed forward to others, as passed to me. A lot was with those in the "industry" I was in. I also kept on the tradition of assisting Veterans, Battered Women, Abused Kids, Single ladies and some others...
MY role, was to pass forward as passed to me. Then I sent /suggested these persons take lessons from others, more learned with teaching and instructing than I.
Example: I have gotten a battered mom with abused kid(s) "up to speed" and then had them attend Rangemaster. MY role was to get that mom to safety "now" up to speed "now" and take care of immediate threats and serious situations "now" which is what me and mine did.
Tom and his bunch had someone with a willingness to learn, with the three rules of gun safety ( rule three later split to make rule four) with a firearm that person could shoot. Back in the day, it was often a Police Trade in Model 10 or similar.
Not once, ever, did Tom, or any other known trainer talk down the gun or equipment any person, me and mine sent/suggested to these known facilites and trainers and instructors.
Nor did any of the known shooters of the time, whom shared private lessons with these persons. No, it is not important as to whom these persons were, some had given me private lessons as well.
I do have a huge "hate" and it goes back before The Great Equipment Race . I was around before TGER, and watched it come to be, and come to fruition and worse.
I don't give a damn what gun, or equipment one has, one cannot buy skill and targets. It takes quality lessons, and quality practice, to be able to first not get into trouble in the first place, and then be able to deal with trouble if need be, including the use of guns and equipment.
I want to cry thinking of some of the last lessons shared by "Mentors & Elders. One of the last was by a true gentleman that was "involved" with the OSS. It had to do with "reading the room". Simply put, reading people, places and things. While he carried a Colt Woodsman most often, and carried a traditional pocket knife, the lessons that day had nothing to do with guns, shooting or edged weapons, instead "being aware enough, to get as early a signal as need.
Oh he did share some stuff in regard to "equipment". Broom, Coke bottle, rolled up magazine...
Dammit! I miss my Mentors & Elders. *sniff-tears*
The truth is, I would not have survived a "work" I did had it not been for training.
I was born with a bulls-eye, on my back, and to some degree, still have one, and always will.
Now being honest, I have never attended a known training facility. My lessons and set ups, were private lessons. In the "industry" I was born into and spent decades doing what I did, I had those I respectfully refer to as "Mentors & Elders" . It would blow some minds as to whom some of these persons were, and what-all their training, real life experiences were.
Everyone of these persons are dead now, and I still miss them, every damn day. I am grateful to have been mentored, and to have worked with such persons. They "passed forward" to me, so much.
Now I am no big deal, but the way it worked was, I in turn passed forward to others, as passed to me. A lot was with those in the "industry" I was in. I also kept on the tradition of assisting Veterans, Battered Women, Abused Kids, Single ladies and some others...
MY role, was to pass forward as passed to me. Then I sent /suggested these persons take lessons from others, more learned with teaching and instructing than I.
Example: I have gotten a battered mom with abused kid(s) "up to speed" and then had them attend Rangemaster. MY role was to get that mom to safety "now" up to speed "now" and take care of immediate threats and serious situations "now" which is what me and mine did.
Tom and his bunch had someone with a willingness to learn, with the three rules of gun safety ( rule three later split to make rule four) with a firearm that person could shoot. Back in the day, it was often a Police Trade in Model 10 or similar.
Not once, ever, did Tom, or any other known trainer talk down the gun or equipment any person, me and mine sent/suggested to these known facilites and trainers and instructors.
Nor did any of the known shooters of the time, whom shared private lessons with these persons. No, it is not important as to whom these persons were, some had given me private lessons as well.
I do have a huge "hate" and it goes back before The Great Equipment Race . I was around before TGER, and watched it come to be, and come to fruition and worse.
I don't give a damn what gun, or equipment one has, one cannot buy skill and targets. It takes quality lessons, and quality practice, to be able to first not get into trouble in the first place, and then be able to deal with trouble if need be, including the use of guns and equipment.
I want to cry thinking of some of the last lessons shared by "Mentors & Elders. One of the last was by a true gentleman that was "involved" with the OSS. It had to do with "reading the room". Simply put, reading people, places and things. While he carried a Colt Woodsman most often, and carried a traditional pocket knife, the lessons that day had nothing to do with guns, shooting or edged weapons, instead "being aware enough, to get as early a signal as need.
Oh he did share some stuff in regard to "equipment". Broom, Coke bottle, rolled up magazine...
Dammit! I miss my Mentors & Elders. *sniff-tears*
DPotvin said;
You can practice many of these skills at home in a dry fire mode. To practice drawing from the holster, set up a practice target in a room in your home, in the garage or the basement. Use this target ONLY for dry fire practice. Then unload your weapon and remove all ammunition from the practice area. Holster your weapon and face the target. You would likely have been taught to draw with a method called by the numbers, with number 1 being grasp the weapon in a firing grip. Start your practice this way. Every time. Take each step slowly and in order and count the step out loud. Take your time and make certain you are doing it the way you were taught. This is where some of the illustrated books and manuals come in handy. Your instructor may even have sent you home with a handout. Do 10 or more repetitions and then pick up the pace. If you want to get more formal with it, set up a video camera and videotape yourself, watch the tapes for feedback on your performance. This doesn't have to take a lot of time, 15 minutes maybe.
To practice shooting on the move all you have to have is a hallway, basement, garage or other area to practice. Take the same precautions against having any ammunition present where you are dry firing. Get an 8 inch paper plate and hang it on the wall. Now move back from the target and start moving towards it dry firing. Your sight should be moving in a little figure 8 on the target. Keep the figure 8 the sights are making on the 8 inch paper plate. This is easy to see with a red dot sight or a laser, but you don't have to invest money in these devices, just watch your sights and adjust how you are walking to keep them on the plate.
You can practice shooting from cover in a dry fire mode using the same precautions about ammunition as with the other drills and use about any object as simulated cover.
Double taps are really broken down into hammers (two shots, one sight picture) and controlled pairs (two shots with separate sight pictures) and they really don't lend themselves well to dry fire practice. There are many methods to practice trigger control dry though, every things from dime/washer exercises to a pencil and paper drill where you drop a pencil down the barrel and dry fire, the firing pin hits the eraser and the pencil exits the barrel and hits the paper 8 inches or so away. Using the same aiming point on the paper each time, you will easily see where you jerked the trigger because that shot will make a mark that is not in the same group as the others where you correctly pressed the trigger.
No one, not even Tier One Special Operations Forces units has the resources to shoot live all the time. Don't worry about not being able to get to the range for a 500 round session once a week, you can maintain a good level of proficiency with safe dry practice.
walking arsenal posted:
KodiakBeer said:
Practicing on your own is important. And yes it is possible to learn for yourself shooting steel plates or other exercises. What you get from training with an instructor is the benefit of someone who can look at what you are doing and make you more efficient. You will most likely see the same improvement in 10 rounds under the watchful eye of a good instructor that might take you 300 rounds on your own. Few of us can diagnose our own mistakes and correct them. fiddletown was exactly right when he said this:
Only perfect practice makes perfect performance. Take my word for it, it's hard to undo thousands of incorrect repetitions of an action. You will have developed muscle memory and your body will default to doing it wrong. That's why quality instruction is so important.
DPotvin said;
To reiterate what others have said here, I don't know any competent instructor who is going to belittle anyone's choice of equipment unless that equipment is unsafe. I don't think I've ever seen a $2000.00 1911 at a course I have attended, although I might have and just never paid attention. In every course that I have taken I have I have used duty grade weapons, some personally owned and some issued. If your Bersa shoots every time you press the trigger and you have a safe holster and at least 3 magazines for it, it should serve you well. Another thing a good course will do for you is it will teach you things about the equipment you have chosen. You will quickly learn things like if the sights are too small, or your weapon isn't reliable under hard use or your holster isn't holding up.
You will learn the most efficient way to use your weapon. You will learn how your equipment works under heavy use and what change you may need to make so that it is more reliable/comfortable to use. You will learn from your fellow students, not just the instructor. I learn from my students every time I teach. How useful it is to you is your choice. You may learn or be exposed to things that just don't fit you. That's fine, there is no ONE WAY to do things. No technique fits everyone. You will learn things that do fit you and you will be a better shooter for the experience.
There is no class in the world, no matter who teaches it that is going to turn you into a gunfighter, master IPSC or IDPA or bullseye shooter. You simply cannot fire enough rounds in 3 to five days to gain that level of proficiency. And even if you could, your proficiency level will drop after about 8 days without shooting. You will leave the class with the tools to help move you down the road to any of those objectives if that is your goal.
There is no training value to standing downrange while people shoot near you. I would stay far, far away from anyone who used that as part of a class.
I will let you in on a secret. There are no super secret SEAL/DELTA/SWAT/HRT shooting techniques. There are just shooters who get very, very good at the basics. How do the get very, very good at the basics? Training and practice and retraining.
You can practice many of these skills at home in a dry fire mode. To practice drawing from the holster, set up a practice target in a room in your home, in the garage or the basement. Use this target ONLY for dry fire practice. Then unload your weapon and remove all ammunition from the practice area. Holster your weapon and face the target. You would likely have been taught to draw with a method called by the numbers, with number 1 being grasp the weapon in a firing grip. Start your practice this way. Every time. Take each step slowly and in order and count the step out loud. Take your time and make certain you are doing it the way you were taught. This is where some of the illustrated books and manuals come in handy. Your instructor may even have sent you home with a handout. Do 10 or more repetitions and then pick up the pace. If you want to get more formal with it, set up a video camera and videotape yourself, watch the tapes for feedback on your performance. This doesn't have to take a lot of time, 15 minutes maybe.
To practice shooting on the move all you have to have is a hallway, basement, garage or other area to practice. Take the same precautions against having any ammunition present where you are dry firing. Get an 8 inch paper plate and hang it on the wall. Now move back from the target and start moving towards it dry firing. Your sight should be moving in a little figure 8 on the target. Keep the figure 8 the sights are making on the 8 inch paper plate. This is easy to see with a red dot sight or a laser, but you don't have to invest money in these devices, just watch your sights and adjust how you are walking to keep them on the plate.
You can practice shooting from cover in a dry fire mode using the same precautions about ammunition as with the other drills and use about any object as simulated cover.
Double taps are really broken down into hammers (two shots, one sight picture) and controlled pairs (two shots with separate sight pictures) and they really don't lend themselves well to dry fire practice. There are many methods to practice trigger control dry though, every things from dime/washer exercises to a pencil and paper drill where you drop a pencil down the barrel and dry fire, the firing pin hits the eraser and the pencil exits the barrel and hits the paper 8 inches or so away. Using the same aiming point on the paper each time, you will easily see where you jerked the trigger because that shot will make a mark that is not in the same group as the others where you correctly pressed the trigger.
No one, not even Tier One Special Operations Forces units has the resources to shoot live all the time. Don't worry about not being able to get to the range for a 500 round session once a week, you can maintain a good level of proficiency with safe dry practice.
walking arsenal posted:
KodiakBeer said:
Practicing on your own is important. And yes it is possible to learn for yourself shooting steel plates or other exercises. What you get from training with an instructor is the benefit of someone who can look at what you are doing and make you more efficient. You will most likely see the same improvement in 10 rounds under the watchful eye of a good instructor that might take you 300 rounds on your own. Few of us can diagnose our own mistakes and correct them. fiddletown was exactly right when he said this:
Only perfect practice makes perfect performance. Take my word for it, it's hard to undo thousands of incorrect repetitions of an action. You will have developed muscle memory and your body will default to doing it wrong. That's why quality instruction is so important.
DPotvin said;
To reiterate what others have said here, I don't know any competent instructor who is going to belittle anyone's choice of equipment unless that equipment is unsafe. I don't think I've ever seen a $2000.00 1911 at a course I have attended, although I might have and just never paid attention. In every course that I have taken I have I have used duty grade weapons, some personally owned and some issued. If your Bersa shoots every time you press the trigger and you have a safe holster and at least 3 magazines for it, it should serve you well. Another thing a good course will do for you is it will teach you things about the equipment you have chosen. You will quickly learn things like if the sights are too small, or your weapon isn't reliable under hard use or your holster isn't holding up.
You will learn the most efficient way to use your weapon. You will learn how your equipment works under heavy use and what change you may need to make so that it is more reliable/comfortable to use. You will learn from your fellow students, not just the instructor. I learn from my students every time I teach. How useful it is to you is your choice. You may learn or be exposed to things that just don't fit you. That's fine, there is no ONE WAY to do things. No technique fits everyone. You will learn things that do fit you and you will be a better shooter for the experience.
There is no class in the world, no matter who teaches it that is going to turn you into a gunfighter, master IPSC or IDPA or bullseye shooter. You simply cannot fire enough rounds in 3 to five days to gain that level of proficiency. And even if you could, your proficiency level will drop after about 8 days without shooting. You will leave the class with the tools to help move you down the road to any of those objectives if that is your goal.
There is no training value to standing downrange while people shoot near you. I would stay far, far away from anyone who used that as part of a class.
I will let you in on a secret. There are no super secret SEAL/DELTA/SWAT/HRT shooting techniques. There are just shooters who get very, very good at the basics. How do the get very, very good at the basics? Training and practice and retraining.
And that's what most of these classes are. There's no "secrets of the ninjas" stuff. It's all about the fundamentals, and proficiency is being able to perform the fundamental well, consistently, on demand and reflexively.JohnBiltz said:
Plenty of people have no trouble paying for a hunting lease that they could keep their defensive firearms skills honed on. Rural property owners can be remarkably receptive to someone who wants a couple of days a month camping, fishing, plinking for surprisingly little.
Don't overlook opportunities.
Don't overlook opportunities.
Chris Rhines
Member
I've taken maybe half a dozen shooting classes in the past five years. Not as many as some, more than most. I'm planning to take two more classes this year. I consider professional training to be critically important to one's development as a shooter.
That said, I see a lot of people making very fundamental mistakes in their approach to training. One of them has already been touched on - practice outside of class. I know quite a few people who take a lot of classes, but that's all the shooting they ever do. Without exception, their skills are the worse for it.
The other thing that I see a lot of is shooters who ignore refresher training. The best shooters that I know can self-identify weak points in their skillset, and seek out coaching to fill those gaps.
So, training is important. Professional instruction to learn the basics, and regular refresher training. You also should be regularly practicing outside of class, both live fire and dryfire. Competition shooting is a good way to get some additional practice in, push yourself outside of your comfort zone, and objectively evaluate your skillset.
-C
That said, I see a lot of people making very fundamental mistakes in their approach to training. One of them has already been touched on - practice outside of class. I know quite a few people who take a lot of classes, but that's all the shooting they ever do. Without exception, their skills are the worse for it.
The other thing that I see a lot of is shooters who ignore refresher training. The best shooters that I know can self-identify weak points in their skillset, and seek out coaching to fill those gaps.
So, training is important. Professional instruction to learn the basics, and regular refresher training. You also should be regularly practicing outside of class, both live fire and dryfire. Competition shooting is a good way to get some additional practice in, push yourself outside of your comfort zone, and objectively evaluate your skillset.
-C
smince
Member.
In regards to practice, I've noticed most people tend to run the drills they do best.
They don't want to waste their time trying to perfect what they suck at. It's not ego-satisfying.
They don't want to waste their time trying to perfect what they suck at. It's not ego-satisfying.
I place a pretty high priority on training. I budgeted the cost of LFI-1 tuition into the cost of my first handgun, and try to take at least one class each year.
There seem to be a lot of misconceptions about firearms training floating around in this thread. If you have some vague flicker of interest in gunskool, but keep talking your self out of it for whatever reason - I'd strongly recommend spending some time reading the class reviews / AARs available on this site and others. You may find that whatever is holding you back can be dealt with or is not a material concern in the first place.
There seem to be a lot of misconceptions about firearms training floating around in this thread. If you have some vague flicker of interest in gunskool, but keep talking your self out of it for whatever reason - I'd strongly recommend spending some time reading the class reviews / AARs available on this site and others. You may find that whatever is holding you back can be dealt with or is not a material concern in the first place.
You needn't take a 'named' instructor's class in order to improve. Even if you are given relatively poor advice, if you start thinking tactically and questioning the instructor, you're far ahead of the guy who shoots a box every year at a static range.
I've taken really inexpensive classes from local wannabe-instructors, and received much of the same training I've seen from nationally famous instructors. Just get out there and start the learning process.
I've taken really inexpensive classes from local wannabe-instructors, and received much of the same training I've seen from nationally famous instructors. Just get out there and start the learning process.
smince
Member.
Yes, you can.
You can also receive a load of crap if you don't know what you're looking for or need.
I used to think that, but I haven't seen nor heard of any really crappy training recently (last ten years). The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data', so I could be way off track here...
But given the alternative (getting tactical advice from movies or gunstore rambos, etc), I think it would be a far greater sin to make the perfect the enemy of the good (i.e. to not train for fear that it might not be optimal training).
Just one opinion...
smince
Member.
Woody;
There was an instructor near here who thought just because he was an 'Enduring Freedom' vet and had did some PSD work later, he was going to wow everyone with his knowledge.
His range/school didn't last very long.
And even if you have the knowledge, you must have the ability to impart it to others. There are some really bad teachers in the world.
There was an instructor near here who thought just because he was an 'Enduring Freedom' vet and had did some PSD work later, he was going to wow everyone with his knowledge.
His range/school didn't last very long.
And even if you have the knowledge, you must have the ability to impart it to others. There are some really bad teachers in the world.
This is a huge variable.smice said:
Just because someone has done something doesn't mean that can teach it or that they even understand it enough to explain it.
I've had instructors show me a technique, explain it step by step, demonstrate how it works, and then be brought up short with the simple question of "Why that way" or "What does that accomplish"...because they really don't know, they were taught it that way and that is how they teach it.
It is no different than a driving instructor telling you, "When the car starts to Oversteer, Countersteer into it"
You need to vet instructors before attending...that is one of the advantages of a big name school, they have a track record...but it does require a bit of knowledge to separate the chaff from the wheat. All you'd need wold be a couple of pat questions to ask and listen to the answers
A very important consideration. Our trapshooting coach was both a top competitor and an excellent teacher and coach. He could diagnose problems, suggest corrections and help shooters optimize their personal strengths and weaknesses.9mmepiphany said:
On the other hand, I've had instruction from well known champions who really couldn't teach. They could only explain what they did but not how to make it work for the student.
And that is one of the advantages of seeking out established, known instructors. Time and the market have helped to vet them.9mmepiphany said:
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Uteridge
Member
My recommendation, for what it is worth, would be to go to a name brand shooting school to start out and learn to do it the right way from the start. After that you can try and find a knowledgeable instructor locally to get training from. If you go to a class as LFI, Gunsite, Thunder Ranch or similar then you will know enough to tell whether or not a local instructor knows what he is doing or if he is just blowing smoke..
Excellent points, all.
In martial arts, there are very few great fighters who are also great teachers. One requires aggression and a competitive nature; the other requires some reflection and sensitivity. (The "understanding what the student is asking" sensitivity, not the "1970s crying guy" sensitivity.)
I'd agree that some instructors and schools far outstrip others, and teach far better material. But I don't feel that one can be made a worse shooter by attending a cheap or new class. There's probably a statistical outlier somewhere to prove me wrong (Bubba's Bar and Shootin' Range), but it seems to me that just taking a class is an important first step. Even if it's a bad class, the student has taken that first step.
Of course, forums like this, where classes are discussed and advised for/against, are an important source of information.
In martial arts, there are very few great fighters who are also great teachers. One requires aggression and a competitive nature; the other requires some reflection and sensitivity. (The "understanding what the student is asking" sensitivity, not the "1970s crying guy" sensitivity.)
I'd agree that some instructors and schools far outstrip others, and teach far better material. But I don't feel that one can be made a worse shooter by attending a cheap or new class. There's probably a statistical outlier somewhere to prove me wrong (Bubba's Bar and Shootin' Range), but it seems to me that just taking a class is an important first step. Even if it's a bad class, the student has taken that first step.
Of course, forums like this, where classes are discussed and advised for/against, are an important source of information.
ScottieRussell
Member
I try to take at least one class a year. This year I took GSI AK class. It was absolutely fantastic. I took a class from a local trainer and it wasn't so great, not for a lack of knowledge but because he was so disorganized. I train physically at least 5 times a week.
I took a nine hour course in high performance pistol shooting last year locally. The instructors were all ranked competitors, and each shooter had one-on-one instruction each time he or she went up to the firing line. There were five instructors, and they rotated, so one got more than one set of eyes for each exercise.
For someone whose shooting had been largely limited to range shooting at a single target with limited instruction, it was beneficial, serving to identify and correct bad habits and teach new techniques. I intend to repeat the course this year.
How good was it? Never having attended one of the really big name courses I really cannot say, but most of the students saw improvements in both speed and in the number of hits on target on the order of 30%.
I have signed up for MAG-20 in Memphis this summer. There is another thread open in S&T with details here. To some, the price may seem rather steep, but it really isn't when you measure it in terms of the number of billable hours that amount would get you from a good attorney.
Will it prove to be a wise investment? The fact is, I do not really expect to ever have to employ what I will learn, but if I do, it could prove very valuable indeed.
In any event, I think it is a better use of limited resources than the purchase of another weapon.
For someone whose shooting had been largely limited to range shooting at a single target with limited instruction, it was beneficial, serving to identify and correct bad habits and teach new techniques. I intend to repeat the course this year.
How good was it? Never having attended one of the really big name courses I really cannot say, but most of the students saw improvements in both speed and in the number of hits on target on the order of 30%.
I have signed up for MAG-20 in Memphis this summer. There is another thread open in S&T with details here. To some, the price may seem rather steep, but it really isn't when you measure it in terms of the number of billable hours that amount would get you from a good attorney.
Will it prove to be a wise investment? The fact is, I do not really expect to ever have to employ what I will learn, but if I do, it could prove very valuable indeed.
In any event, I think it is a better use of limited resources than the purchase of another weapon.
Well done. I think you'll find it both an excellent class and very helpful and illuminating. It's the classroom portion of the MAG-40 class (formerly known as LFI-1).Kleanbore said:
I strongly recommend that anyone who carries or keeps a gun for self defense take the MAG-20 classroom segment even if he (or she) takes no other class. I don't know of anyone who addresses, for the private citizen, the legal, social and ethical issues of the use of lethal force quite as well as Massad Ayoob.
Are you signing up for the additional "day on the range"? It looks like a great chance to get a day of live fire training with Tom Givens.
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