What Priority Do You Place on Training?

[Steel Talon]

My take... FWIW

Training is a necessary need in developing your skills .However most pistol training programs are just re bundled material.. Shoot, Move, Cover,and reload. Stance, Grip, Breath control Trigger control, Sight alignment,and Mind set. All require repetitive movements = smooth = =fluid= fast!!!

For you to get as much as you can from a training course there are a few key things you should bring to the range. A cooperative open mind, an excellent grounding in safety and marksmanship basics, know your firearm, bring proper equipment, bring ample and correct ammo and have a modicum of physical fitness.

Ask a litany of questions related to the training not the "What if" questions. You want the most bang for your bucks spent on this. So many peoplee show up and want to talk war stories in group.Also if the trainers are talking war stories to the point of distraction then they are not serving you well at all. Whole lotta kawk blocking can occur at training.

Once training is ended, you need to perfectly practice what you learned on a regular basis at the range not just once or twice. This is when you make the adjustments to fit your needs.

I recommend that if your serious about becoming well trained then you need to seek out tactical shotgun courses.. and Tactical carbine courses if you don't have an AR don't worry mini 14's are good, plus many others. Talk to the provider before you lay down any cash.

 

[smince]

The fact is, I do not really expect to ever have to employ what I will learn,

Funny thing, I guess. I take training fully expecting to have to use what I learn sometime.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Ask a litany of questions related to the training not the "What if" questions. You want the most bang for your bucks spent on this. So many peoplee show up and want to talk war stories in group.

This is very important, if you don't understand something...ask for clarification. There is nothing as frustrating as learning on the third day that a student did not understand something on the first that was referred to several time over the weekend.

The crew I taught with usually had dinner with the students after instruction each day. This is a great time to share stories, not during the class.

But also don't think that all stories by instructors are a waste of time. Some are to illustrate a point of the instruction, some is to properly pace the class...we monitored energy levels of students...you can only focus so long before the mind tires. Plus we want to make sure everyone drinks water and has an intake of salt during the hotter months

 

[aklovinguy]

I would love to atend some quality training,but like a lot of us cost is a major factor. what is a resonible fee for a good course? how about ammo? im in Mo, is there a good trainer near by that any body knows of ? Im 21, married and make about 25 k a year so not a lot of money for this sourt of thing I think it is very important.

 

[Uteridge]

Where are you at in MO? I used to live there and I know a few good instructors in Central Missouri.

 

[aklovinguy]

an hour south of kansas city. what is the cost of these courses

 

[Sheepdog1968]

I would love to atend some quality training,but like a lot of us cost is a major factor. what is a resonible fee for a good course? how about ammo? im in Mo, is there a good trainer near by that any body knows of ? Im 21, married and make about 25 k a year so not a lot of money for this sourt of thing I think it is very important.

I had the same problem when I was younger. Money was tight so I didn't train till I was older. Actually, pre-internet, it never dawned on me that such training existed.

A lot of the bigger names seem to charge in the neighborhood fo $250 to $350 a day. The more local things seem to be at least half of that. I'm not disparaging any instructor for what they charge as they need to make a living at this. Many webistes for training post their costs. One advantage in local is the lack of lodging and transportation costs that shouldn't be overlooked.

A real bargain out there is the Project Appleseed classes. They are two days in length and cost around $80 for men (women and children shoot free). If you have never taken one (I've taken two), it is IMO well worth it. You will learn basic rifle marksmanship and some history that you will make you feel proud of your country. They've got them all over the country so odds are one is only a couple hours drive from where you live.

Also, I think (again my opinion) you are better off spending money on training and holding off on some new gun purchases. Many of the places let you rent firearms. I'm not saying to not buy firearms, but delaying an few purchases to what you currently own might get you into a class sooner.

 

[aklovinguy]

I had the same problem when I was younger. Money was tight so I didn't train till I was older. Actually, pre-internet, it never dawned on me that such training existed.

A lot of the bigger names seem to charge in the neighborhood fo $250 to $350 a day. The more local things seem to be at least half of that. I'm not disparaging any instructor for what they charge as they need to make a living at this. Many webistes for training post their costs. One advantage in local is the lack of lodging and transportation costs that shouldn't be overlooked.

A real bargain out there is the Project Appleseed classes. They are two days in length and cost around $80 for men (women and children shoot free). If you have never taken one (I've taken two), it is IMO well worth it. You will learn basic rifle marksmanship and some history that you will make you feel proud of your country. They've got them all over the country so odds are one is only a couple hours drive from where you live.

Also, I think (again my opinion) you are better off spending money on training and holding off on some new gun purchases. Many of the places let you rent firearms. I'm not saying to not buy firearms, but delaying an few purchases to what you currently own might get you into a class sooner.

I have herd of the Appleseed project good to get more feedback on that . Sounds like something that could realy work for us.I strongly agrea with ammo and training over firearms purchases . I have a kel tec pf9 and an ak,these are my main defence go to guns. but the pf9 is a very good deap carry gun, not fun to shoot at all.....at all. i realy want a glock 19 or 17 . then i will very ready to due some intence training but the pf9 wont hold me back. thanks for the impute,means a lot to hear from folks with more experiance.

 

[aklovinguy]

Where are you at in MO? I used to live there and I know a few good instructors in Central Missouri.

an hour south of kasas city

 

[Uteridge]

an hour south of kansas city. what is the cost of these courses

My recommendation is Tim Oliver. He teaches basic CCW and advanced CCW courses. He is very strong in the basics. His courses are usually taught at the old Chapman Academy in Hallsville, MO. Course cost is $170 for a one day course. You won't get the same level of instruction that you get going to a weeklong course at Thunder Ranch but you will get good instruction that you can build upon with your own practice.

 

[9mmepiphany]

That price sounds about right $200/day is pretty normal with big name instructors charging a bit more ~$300/day...for a class setting

1:1 instruction seems to range from $50-$70/hour with $100/hour not uncommon for a name instructor

 

[Sam1911]

I have herd of the Appleseed project good to get more feedback on that

Appleseed is, by all accounts, a great program. It also illustrates what I wrote in post 31.

Yes, it is training. Training in a specific kind of rifle shooting, similar to a military basic rifleman qualifying course. Very worthwhile stuff taught in that.

But almost nothing that would be applicable to, for instance, home defense or "close-quarters" work with the same rifle. And, of course, certainly nothing that would be applicable to self-defense on the street with a concealed sidearm.

This is a great illustration of the importance of defining your goals when you seek training, or when you try to understand how important it may be for you.

 

[Uteridge]

Most training requirements for most people can be trained to by taking a basic tactical pistol course such as a Gunsite 250 course and a basic carbine course (if you use a carbine for home defense) or a basic shotgun course (if you use a shotgun for home defense). These are enough to teach the basics: draw, shooting quickly, shooting accurately, noticing the little bump on the front of the slide, and some basic one man tactics/combat mindset. You can go into much more advanced training but learning the basics and practicing them is the key. I have shot with some of the best shooters in the business and the difference between them and Joe off the street is that they are brilliant in the basics.

 

[aklovinguy]

Appleseed is, by all accounts, a great program. It also illustrates what I wrote in post 31.

Yes, it is training. Training in a specific kind of rifle shooting, similar to a military basic rifleman qualifying course. Very worthwhile stuff taught in that.

But almost nothing that would be applicable to, for instance, home defense or "close-quarters" work with the same rifle. And, of course, certainly nothing that would be applicable to self-defense on the street with a concealed sidearm.

This is a great illustration of the importance of defining your goals when you seek training, or when you try to understand how important it may be for you.

I am interested in basic on the street pistol course(ccw type ) and basic multiple target carbine work. And home defense with a pistol.

I mostly see myself in these type of situations.

 

[smince]

Most training requirements for most people can be trained to by taking a basic tactical pistol course such as a Gunsite 250 course and a basic carbine course (if you use a carbine for home defense) or a basic shotgun course (if you use a shotgun for home defense).

If you are familiar with your particular weapons it can be pared down even further.

My first 'professional' course was Suarez International's Extreme Close-Range Gunfighting. It was a handgun-specific class, but it only took a little imagination to adapt many of the techniques to carbine or shotgun.

There are probably other examples of cross-over material.

 

[Sam1911]

I am interested in basic on the street pistol course(ccw type ) and basic multiple target carbine work. And home defense with a pistol.

That makes good sense, but spending two days on "long" (well, a lot longer than "self-defense" distances) range rifle shooting at an Appleseed course isn't going to get you much closer to your stated goals.

Wonderful opportunity to learn to shoot a rifle well, though.

 

[possum]

training is very high on my list of priorities. I have a class this weekend, one in april, and if everything goes according to plan another 1-2 this year.

 

[BullfrogKen]

The courses aren’t cheap and the skills learned are perishable. I could invest in hundreds of dollars, or more, of training but after the course, where do I practice the skills learned? I don’t know of any public range that allows draw from the holster and fire, shooting while moving, use of cover, double taps, etc.

Shooting is as much a social event for me as anything. The money spent on training buys a lot of range time and I only have a finite amount to spend each year. It may not be as useful as training but it’s better than nothing and I have the opportunity to hang out with friends.

I only own two handguns; a Bersa 380 and a Browning Buckmark. I can just see showing up to a training course where everyone else has a $2,000 1911 and having to endure a lecture from the instructor about the inadequacy of the 380. Maybe that would never happen but the thought is a turnoff.

I guess ultimately, having never taken such course, I’m still skeptical about the benefits. What will I learn? How useful will it be to me? Some of the things I’ve read about the training aren’t even remotely interesting to me. Such as the idea of standing downrange while fellow trainees shoot at targets next to you.

If shooting is a mostly social activity for you, then training might not be something you'll find all that enjoyable. Of course, most of the classes I took had a pleasant social dynamic within them.


I've seen very few $2,000 1911s in the classes I took. Most of the guns were Glocks, Springfield XDs, S&W M&Ps, and some of the more standard variety 1911s. Calibers range from 9mm to .45 ACP. You will likely hear the instructor say that the .380 does not have adequate performance. Sorry, it just doesn't. The weight of the round is just too light for what we consider reliable penetration and wounds.

I doubt you'd get turned away. But most defensive shooting classes will have you running that Bersa hard. Harder than you'd ever on your own.

Students standing downrange? That just doesn't happen in classes. Of all the instructors I know . . . I'm aware of less than 5 instructors who will do something like that. It's so rare, you can put it out of your mind. If someone does tell you to do it, just say no.


Benefits? How useful?

I wasn't even aware of just how much I didn't know about how to shoot well before my first class. If shooting more accurately in less time sounds like something for you, you'll benefit. You can keep this skills you learn with an airsoft replica. Competitors from Japan do it for IPSC competitions in the USA.

 

[GRIZ22]

I don't think anyone would argue that one can't learn to fly a F18 to its full potential from Bubba and Billie Bob who are crop dusting pilots. However, many rely on the same two guys to get their firearms training at the gravel pit.

It is difficult to find affordable local trainers. Unless you go to one of the big name schools its hard to determine if your getting your money's worth. I was fortunate to get a lot of specialized training free as a LEO and that includes some from some big names.

Too many shooters think you need a $3000 1911 to adequately defend yourself when a $600 Springfield or Taurus will do the same job.

 

[9mmepiphany]

This came up in a discussion recently

Most name schools charge $200/day in a 2-day class...so $400

If you saved $20 a week, you'd have that much in 20 weeks...5 months

 

[possum]

This came up in a discussion recently

Most name schools charge $200/day in a 2-day class...so $400

If you saved $20 a week, you'd have that much in 20 weeks...5 months

This is a good point and it is true. Though I am 100% pro training and do so as much as i can, and want others to do so as well. You have to account for ammo, travel, food, and hotel stay as well. A $400 class can turn into over $1000 in a hurry.

but still yet saving $20 a week, you can still do one class a year.

another great option is to host a class. Most places worth anything will give you a free slot. if you get enough people of course.

 

[DAP90]

You will likely hear the instructor say that the .380 does not have adequate performance. Sorry, it just doesn't. The weight of the round is just too light for what we consider reliable penetration and wounds.

Yah, I know. I just get tired of hearing it.

I bought that particular handgun because it had the features I wanted and it was inexpensive to purchase. Expensive as heck to shoot/own as it turns out but that's a subject for a different thread.

I actually like shooting it and I've looked for something with a little more oomph but haven't found anything I like yet.

 

[Myles]

I place a high priority on trigger time. Formal training is nice to establish fundamentals and tactics. The more rounds that you send downrange, practicing what you have learned is the most important, in my opinion. I don't care what classes someone has been to, if they can't hit a 8x11 inch sheet of paper more than one out of 5 shots. (I have a few acquaintances that fit this.)

 

[Sam1911]

I don't care what classes someone has been to, if they can't hit a 8x11 inch sheet of paper more than one out of 5 shots. (I have a few acquaintances that fit this.)

That seems like a bit of an odd statement. I'd say very few graduates of almost any formal shooting training would be unable to meet that goal. Most basic shooting instruction is going to develop much more proficiency than that. And then probably move on to gunfighting skills that take that accuracy capability and turn it into something useful.

Assuming that one can meet this rather pedestrian goal, do you consider them proficient and in need of no further training?

 

[Old krow]

This is a good point and it is true. Though I am 100% pro training and do so as much as i can, and want others to do so as well. You have to account for ammo, travel, food, and hotel stay as well. A $400 class can turn into over $1000 in a hurry.

That's about what I come with as well if there's any traveling involved. Of course, in the end, I'd likely spend it on the training before I did another gun.