What quality, minimalist 1911? Custom CCO or Detonics?

[MatthewVanitas]

This question won't really be resolved until I finish gradschool and am drawing a proper paycheck again. But I thought I'd at least start developing the idea for the time being.

I'm getting by just fine with a Sistema Colt (built in '48), but once I get money flowing again, I'll sell the Sistema to a 1911-less young person, and get an heirloom piece for myself.

Here are my priorities:

a) Will last indefinitely, so stainless steel. I like the SS look, and hope to add elk grips onto it to complete the picture. Blued can be lovely (esp that WWI replica Colt), but I want something that will look great for the entire life of the gun.

b) Good for a small-statured man, so probably Commander slide with Officer grip, ala the Colt CCO. Not necessarily planning to CCW it, so no alloy frame, but the smaller grip will make it more carryable if need be.

c) Quality parts throughout, preferably no MIM, though I admit that I barely understand why that matters. Not sure whether the anti-MIM sentiment is just curmedgeonery, but I'll spring for solid steel rather than risk it.

d) I really like most of the WWI-style features: small gripsafety (never had hammer bite on any 1911, got small paws), old style hammer, flat MSH, etc. Don't want any modern jazz (forward serrations, skeletal hammer etc). Although upgraded sights would be nice. Though my Sistema sights are certainly serviceable with my young eyes, something a bit easier to see would be desirable, though preferably something with good lines that's aesthetically pleasing.

So, two possibilites come to mind:

1) Something custom modeled after a Colt CCO, made of good quality stainless slide/frame with quality parts installed by a decent smith. Maybe around $1500?

2) Detonics CombatMaster: though it's not exactly what I was thinking, it's incredibly cool in a funky way, and I covetted them greatly when a teenager. The lack of MIM parts is cool, BHP-ish hammer, flat MSH, non-existent gripsafety, etc. The forward sights are odd, but I'll survive. Or, heck, the Detonics StreetMaster is pretty cool: full-size Gov't slide on Officer grip:

For those that missed it, Detonics is indeed back in business, having been revived by author/holstersmith Jerry Ahern. MSRP on the tiny CombatMaster is around $1200, actual retail hopefully slightly lower.

What thinks, all?

-MV

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I very much doubt that a Detonics is going to be an "heirloom" pistol.

Get a Colt Gunsite CCO

 

[HighVelocity]

If I were in your shoes I'd definitely consider this one:

http://www.impactguns.com/store/NH-TALONIII.html

 

[MatthewVanitas]

I very much doubt that a Detonics is going to be an "heirloom" pistol.

What's so wrong with them? Not quite standard 1911, but are they really such an inferior product?

Get a Colt Gunsite CCO

Pros: Pony stamped on side (for those that like that), proper CCO format, good sights.

Cons: Annodized frame, blued slide, huge honkin' beavertail, forward serrations. Plus I'd feel kinda weird about it since I've never been to Gunsite (yes, yes, I could solve that part by actually going there).

The Gunsite seems to be a good piece of gear, but it's not quite what I'm looking for.

@HV: looks like a very slick product, and the Novak sights are one of the few up-to-date touches that I really dig. But not so keen on the modern hammer/trigger/gripsafety/serrations. Plus it costs more than twice as much as the Detonics, and for a maker that I'm not familiar with. Is the maker of Nighthawk extremely well-regarded, so as to justify the price? Would the Kobra-Chrome finish be less likely to last a century or more than a stainless pistol?

-MV

 

[farscott]

I suggest building on a carbon steel Caspian frame and slide and having it finished in hard chrome. The custom build allows you to get exactly what you want without having to pay for stuff you do not want. Caspian even makes a 1911 frame reminscent of the original, and you can choose the slide serration pattern you want. The Caspian frame and slide are fairly economical, but they are not less expensive than buying a base gun and tossing everything but the slide and frame.

If economics are an issue, I suggest getting an used SA Mil-Spec and tossing eveything but the frame and slide. The Mil-Spec gets the nod over the GI due to the flared ejection port treatment and the magazine well bevel. This will save money if the pistol comes with those features.

While hard chrome is not the most corrosion resistant finish, it is the best wearing finish in common use. It is very hard to scratch and I have never managed to abrade it. With a modicum of care, a hard chromed pistol will last several life times.

Another finish that shows promise is EGW's E-Treat; however, I will not see how that one works out for a few more months. It is supposed to be about as hard as hard chrome, as corrosion resistant as Tennifer, and as black as night. If it does what George Smith suggests (and I believe it will as Mr. Smith has a great track record), it will be the holy grail of handgun finishes.

As for smiths, I am partial to John Harrison of Precision Gunworks. John has done several pistols for me, and he has three more of mine in the queue, including a full-house built on a Caspian frame and slide, a Delta Elite, and the SA Mil-Spec that is my test bed for E-Treat.

 

[waterhouse]

I agree with farscott. You might be able to find one, but I think most factory CCO type models (I have the Kimber only because I couldn't find a colt at the time) have lightweight frames designed for carrying. If you want an heavy (err, non light) officer's frame and commander slide it might be worth just building exactly what you want.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

Custom is seeming the way to go here. A Caspian frame and slide are around $400 IIRC, with a pretty wide variety of options. Another few hundred for parts, and then whatever a 'smith charges. I'm sure that labor costs vary massively by smith, but I have another year or so before I finish school, so I have time to shop around.

If I'm just building a shooting pistol, not a match pistol, does that save me some money, or make the job of finding a smith easier? Not that I want to over-economize and hire the guy at Bubba's Hardware and Plumbing, but do I need to spend $2K in labor to get a 1911 of IDPA-acceptable accuracy that runs reliably?

I do need to go read some Caspian reviews. Only concern: some complain that Caspian gear is cast rather than forged. I need to find out whether that's going to matter to me in the long run, or whether that's just more curmudgeonry. I like their variety of sizes and serration patterns, and the option of the Ordnance flaming bomb is a neat touch.

Regarding finish: another thing for me to do homework on. Is chromed carbon steel far superior to stainless? I just worry that chrome will flake or chemically react over the years, whereas the only downside of stainless appears to be polishing it away to nothing with Flitz over the course of a century. Thoughts?

SAXET show had a stainless Detonics for $600 or so, I suppose I should've bought that just to see if Detonics meets my needs. A little stubbier than I was thinking, but a neat design overall.

-MV

 

[farscott]

Gary Smith of Caspian is on record that he has never had a cast frame returned to him that failed in use; however, he has had forged frames returned. The only negative about Caspian cast frames is cosmetic; sometimes pinprick casting voids are visible after metal prep. Caspian slides are forged.

I would not be tempted to save money by shopping for a less expensive smith. Go with someone with a good reputation. If possible, speak with others who have used a smith on your list. It is great if you can try his or her work before you put your pistol in the queue.

Carbon steel is a bit stronger than stainless. Vastly superior? No, just a bit. BTW, stainless metals used in firearms will rust; they are not corrosion proof. In fact, many are barely able to be classified as stainless (based on the amount of chromium in the alloy). I have never seen a properly done hard chrome finish flake or react to chemicals. BTW, hard chrome is porous, so corrosion can still be an issue. Some people like to use stainless and then apply hard chrome for a bit more corrosion resistance.

 

[bdutton]

Ditto the caspian carbon steel frame and slide.

Avoid the stainless frame and slides. friction between slide and frame of stainless can lead to galling.

If you really like the look of stainless try going with a stainless slide and a carbon steel frame (caspian).

I know a gunsmith in RI that does excellent work if you don't mind paying:

http://www.santurriltd.com/

 

[Black_Talon]

Baer Stinger is what you need.

Mine's blue steel (although it's at Tripp's getting hardchromed right now), but they're also available in stainless.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

That Baer Stinger actually seems pretty darn close to what I'm seeking!

Good thing I have more than a year to read up on the subject, but that's definitely a possibility. You know, I do believe I saw that same model a couple years ago (when I was drawing a good paycheck) and had considered it strongly, but just couldn't rationalize replacing my Sistema, especially since I was deploying every seven months.

If it is everything it's supposed to be, $1700 isn't horrendously bad. And the resale value (God forbid) is far less likely to plummet like a stunned falcon before it's even delivered to me.

I'm going to ask a very dumb question. Given that any given individual on Les Baer's staff forgets more about 1911s before breakfast than I'll ever learn, if I were to email them and say "Can I pay extra for a Stinger with WWI-style trigger, hammer, and gripsafety?", will they tell me to go pound sand? Send large thugs to give me Dutch rubs for even suggesting such a thing?

-MV

@BlackTalon: oh, and the most important thing: are you just absolutely thrilled with yours?

 

[farscott]

Given that any given individual on Les Baer's staff forgets more about 1911s before breakfast than I'll ever learn, if I were to email them and say "Can I pay extra for a Stinger with WWI-style trigger, hammer, and gripsafety?"....

I am confident they would refuse your request for three reasons:

1) They build pistols to specifications, allowing very little changes.

2) The frame around the grip safety opening would have to be welded up to support the requested grip safety.

3) They do not have the parts on hand to meet your requests.

On the other hand, it never hurts to ask. It is probably worth a phone call to Les Baer Custom to get the definitve answer.

 

[Black_Talon]

@BlackTalon: oh, and the most important thing: are you just absolutely thrilled with yours?

Absolutely thrilled with it. It's been 100% reliable so far (900+ rds of Speer 230 Gold Dot) and is super accurate as well. I'm having it hardchromed because I'm planning on just shooting the snot out of it and want it to be as low maintenance as possible. I just can't foresee making any changes to it.