What rifle do you prefer for PD?

[Ignition Override]

I can only tell you the choice of a federal agent who plinks in the same place, when off duty.
He gave me his business card.

His personal rifle is a converted Saiga in 7.62x39, and he practices from just twenty or thirty feet.
Why he trains from such a distance became apparent:

The guy knows every detail of the unanticipated 'road stop' ambush, which resulted in the death of two West Memphis police officers about a year or two ago. The "s. citizen" attackers had a semi-auto AK clone and the officers had no chance.

 

[krupparms]

In town I keep Ruger 10/22 loaded with H.P.s. Out of town a SKS or AR15, AK clone. Open country FAL. That's it.

 

[Mr.510]

My go-to rifle is a Saiga .308 with 16" barrel, 'restored' pistol grip configuration, and Ace side folding stock. That said, my .45 is always with me and is my first choice for home defense.

 

[JohnD13]

An M1 carbine would be the rifle of choice here. Enough power and accuracy for the job.

 

[Panzercat]

Rossi model '92 trapper carbine in .357 plus my old gen 2 glock 19. The Rossi doubles as my 'farmyard varmint' gun, loaded with light .38 specials.

I've got the 454 version on the way. If for some reason I don't feel my Hipoint 9mm is adequate, some 10+1 45lc or casull medicine should be more than enough.

 

[BlackSky]

 

[76shuvlinoff]

That which is standing at the ready while I sleep.

870 - the first round is a slug the rest are 00.
.357 lever carbine - Leverevolution rounds in the tube. (yeah not really a "rifle")
Fullsize 1911 - two extra mags
4" .38 special
And most importantly, 2 large and somewhat nervous dogs.

 

[fpgt72]

I live out in the country....they are building a housing sub division about 5 or so miles from my property....the coyotes are being displaced....this is about as PD as it gets, and that is only when I let my dogs out. What I will take out if I have been hearing the coyote yelping is a M1 Carbine. It is light, small, handy, holds quite a bit...and I can hit what I aim at. Now I don't think anything with the M1 carbine will go against you if the animal that is giving you trouble has 4 feet or just 2.

 

[A Person]

@ugaarguy Because in urban or een sub urban areS, it is very Unsafe to use a rifle for HD, paticuarly the .223. Bullets penetrate. But rifle calibers penetrate much deeper than pistol calibers, and go insanely long distances. Even a .223 can go through a solid concrete block. And houses in Urbia and Suburbia aren't exactly made of concrete. the bullet would kill your attacker for sure, but it would alse (most likely) go throgh your atacker, hrough your wall, through your neighbors wall, and into your neighbor. A roud of 12 gauge 00 buckshot would mutilate your attacker, but not go clean throuh him.

 

[M1key]

Check some of those assumptions with the Box O' Truth.


M

 

[Eb1]

@A Person

What kind of anemic 00 buckshot have you been smokin'? Uh-I mean shooting.

 

[armoredman]

Not all long guns are preferable for home defense...



IANSA poster I did with my son's CZ 452 Scout, with the single shot adapter it came with for his birthday.

 

[OpelBlitz]

Better than nothing. Slightly.

 

[ugaarguy]

@ugaarguy Because in urban or een sub urban areS, it is very Unsafe to use a rifle for HD, paticuarly the .223. Bullets penetrate. But rifle calibers penetrate much deeper than pistol calibers, and go insanely long distances. Even a .223 can go through a solid concrete block. And houses in Urbia and Suburbia aren't exactly made of concrete. the bullet would kill your attacker for sure, but it would alse (most likely) go throgh your atacker, hrough your wall, through your neighbors wall, and into your neighbor. A roud of 12 gauge 00 buckshot would mutilate your attacker, but not go clean throuh him.

Your assumptions are wrong. Read this thread and get back to us - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=210739.

 

[Chuck R.]

I have this: Colt LE6920 with Trijicon Tri-Power and a Surefire X300 light with 55 grn Horn TAP:



But I actually keep this: Benelli M1S90, Insight M3X, loaded with FED #1 Buck and OO HORN TAP on the cuff loaded under the bed:



Chuck

 

[Eb1]

Not to really change the subject, but I have heard and experienced that #3 buckshot from a 20 gauge has the same penetration as 00 buckshot from a 12 gauge, and is more manageable in the recoil department.

What is it? Something like 20 rounds of .25 caliber pellets from a #3 20 gauge buckshot shell.

Nevertheless. That is what I have loaded into an open cylinder Mossberg 500. My wife is left handed, so the tang safety works out great. It is actually her shotgun that I bought her to shoot trap with me because the 12 gauge was just to long with to much recoil.

 

[wrs840]

3 buck is 20 pellets of .25" (6.35mm) in a 2-3/4" 20ga load.

That's what my wife keeps in her 20ga Mossberg 500 18.5"bbl that she's had since about 1986. She doesn't mind shooting 2-3/4" 12ga 0 buck (my preference for a HD load) but likes shooting her Mossberg 20ga very much. I can't speak to the differences in penetration between the two.

 

[benEzra]

@ugaarguy Because in urban or een sub urban areS, it is very Unsafe to use a rifle for HD, paticuarly the .223. Bullets penetrate. But rifle calibers penetrate much deeper than pistol calibers, and go insanely long distances. Even a .223 can go through a solid concrete block. And houses in Urbia and Suburbia aren't exactly made of concrete. the bullet would kill your attacker for sure, but it would alse (most likely) go throgh your atacker, hrough your wall, through your neighbors wall, and into your neighbor. A roud of 12 gauge 00 buckshot would mutilate your attacker, but not go clean throuh him.

Civilian .223 jacketed hollowpoints or softpoints in the 50 to 62 grain weight range tend to penetrate less in gelatin and building materials than 00 buckshot or pistol JHP, and are somewhat less likely to exit a structure than most 00 buckshot or pistol JHP.

We're not talking about military loads here designed to penetrate cover; we're talking about civilian bullets designed to expand/fragment and stop.

 

[Eb1]

I can tell you that in real world scenarios the 55 grain .223 SP will penetrate at least 20" in meat and flesh. I have seen it to many times from deer hunting. You need to take all that gelatin, and put it in a cake mold.
Real world situations are where the real information is at. Not from shooting jell-o. I know it gives a good representation of what a bullet "MIGHT" do, but no one knows what a bullet will really do until it is shot into the intended target. Be it game, zombies, intruders, wet paper, wood, glass, or gelatin.

 

[benEzra]

I can tell you that in real world scenarios the 55 grain .223 SP will penetrate at least 20" in meat and flesh. I have seen it to many times from deer hunting. You need to take all that gelatin, and put it in a cake mold.

Deer-appropriate hunting bullets, or varmint/LE bullets?

Bullet construction does matter. And there are plenty of real-world confirmation that .223 with appropriate defensive loads does not, in fact, tend to overpenetrate in the real world, because .223 is the primary long-gun round used by most LE SWAT teams. The relative lack of penetration in building materials with appropriate load choices is one reason why .223 carbines have been gradually displacing 9mm carbines and subguns in that role.

One of the least penetrative of all centerfire rounds of any caliber, other than shotgun birdshot, is .223 40-grain JHP, e.g. Federal T223D or the old "Blitz" LE load. Those barely reach 6" and typically fragment in two sheets of drywall, assuming realistic wall spacing, to be stopped by the third or fourth sheet (second wall). A lot of people recommend against the 40's because they don't penetrate enough.

 

[Eb1]

A lot of people recommend against the 40's because they don't penetrate enough

That leads me to believe you have zero real world experience in this.

I am speaking of off the shelf Black Hills .233 55 grains soft points. Someone posted a pics of 55 grain sp penetrating 7" in gelatin. I was simply stating that the pic is a crock compared to real world situations.

 

[mortablunt]

I keep a Beretta Cx4 in 45 ACP and use JHP rounds. The rest of the family is aware of it and has seen it. I gave a brief lecture on operating it and using the sights, but I really doubt their ability to just grab it and figure it out. And if anything does happen, may the first person they run into be me; my mom still keep a couple of butcher's knives from her days at UT Martin close at hand. Knowing what she's like when angry, it would be far kinder for him to bleed out on the floor rather than become acquainted with the dear old lady's implements.

 

[gunfighter48]

My choices for home defense is 1911 45ACP for close work and AR 15 if it should turn into sustained fire situation. In reality the 1911 should be enough to convince someone they really don't want anything I have!!

 

[mortablunt]

^ The fragmentation effect is unpredictable and it is impossible to know beforehand when it will happen or how it will happen. FMJ's fired from the M4 often can go 12 inches or more in flesh before fragmenting. It's a nice effect, but not something I'd like to bet my life on.

 

[benEzra]

Drywall penetration test:

http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html

Here is 40gr .223, back of the first wall:



Front of the second wall:



Front of the third wall (no penetration):



The Winchester Ranger (LE/defensive design, not hunting) 55 gr and 64 gr softpoints behaved similarly, fragmenting in the first and second wall and stopping by the third wall. Hornady 55gr TAP penetrated all 3 walls, but 60gr TAP did not.

By comparison, all pistol rounds tested, 7.62x39mm rifle rounds, and 00 buckshot penetrated all 3 walls.

There are a *huge* variety of .223 loads out there, ranging from very penetrative FMJ to bonded core hunting rounds to medium-penetration LE/defensive loads to fragile, low-penetration varmint rounds. The loads in the center and on the shallower side of that spectrum are indeed less likely to exit an exterior wall than most pistol JHP or 00 buckshot.

If you have access to a university library, the following article tested wall penetration (among other things) and found .223 was less lethal after wall penetration than typical handgun JHP and 00 buckshot.

Roberts G.K., "Law Enforcement General Purpose Shoulder Fired Weapons: the Wounding Effects of 5.56mm/.223 Carbines Compared with 12 ga. Shotguns and Pistol Caliber Weapons Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant, Police Marksman, Jul/Aug 1998, pp. 38-45.