gpr
Member
hand loaded 357, to the point of blowing out the primers, will crack a block...it will also do both doors and parts of the seat....gary
What round can stop a car?
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merlinfire
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I see you missed my point. It is like trying to get a head shot while your opponent is wearing a coat 3 sizes too big and he is inside a sleeping bag
Deltaboy1984
Member
357 mag AP rounds that the Arkansas State Police used to carry!
ForumSurfer
Member
You'd be surprised how far a car can go with the block and internals completely trashed. Go to the track and watch what happens to those high revving, hand grenade small blocks. I've seen more than one drive the half mile back to the pits with gaping holes in the block and complete rods and pistons missing with the crank split in several pieces. It takes an awful lot to STOP a car. I was always particular to superchargers, so I've junked a block or two myself.
Here was a daily driver with quite a bit of material missing, it barely smoked. Compression was waaaaaay down, but it could have went a few hundred more miles before catastrophic failure caused it to stop.
So I think you need a decent sized caliber, several shots and lots of luck.
Here was a daily driver with quite a bit of material missing, it barely smoked. Compression was waaaaaay down, but it could have went a few hundred more miles before catastrophic failure caused it to stop.
So I think you need a decent sized caliber, several shots and lots of luck.
lemaymiami
Member
I've enjoyed reading all the technical info, the various experiments on static vehicles, and particularly the fellow who pointed out that some actual physics would be involved in stopping a moving vehicle...
That said here's two actual incidents that occurred on my watch....
The first involved a vehicle chase in traffic where a pickup truck had evaded all means of containment and was headed at high speed towards a busy intersection. A good friend of mine (who later had a distinguished career as a chief of police for a city here in south Florida) was in a two man unit and decided that he would shoot out a tire as they pulled alongside the truck. He fired a single round into the tire and the chase ended right then. The only reason it ended was that the driver was so frightened she quit running.... That tire didn't deflate until about ten minutes later.... My friend "caught hell" over the incident and it was later emphasized in training that the only time our officers would ever fire their weapons at a car was if they were justified in killing the driver, period. Of course all the officers that night felt a lot different about it....
A few years later one of my officers on stakeout at night in plain clothes (car burglary detail) approached a car theft in progress on foot in a parking lot intending to stop the thief before he could start the car (the thief had entered the car and was trying to start it). As he approached the car he saw what looked like a handgun in the thief's hand pointing at him so he fired one shot. That .45 round went through the car door, the car seat, and the thief - killing him instantly (after penetrating everything the round went right through the chest cavity side to side taking out all the important stuff along the way... I won't go into the remaining details.
My take on the subject is simple. You only fire on the occupants of a vehicle when you're justified in killing them. I'd never attempt to "stop a car" it's the operator I'd go after, period. By the way shooting into an occupied vehicle is a real crap shoot. I've seen quite a few incidents where the occupants were never touched while bullets went every which way.... and one or two where a single shot cancelled someone's ticket in very questionable circumstances... I can also remember one particularly bad incident where a bunch of cops fired at a vehicle and managed to send two or three of them to the hospital (and the bad guy never fired a shot). Every officer was wounded by someone on the other side of the car... the kind of thing you might see in a bad movie.
That said here's two actual incidents that occurred on my watch....
The first involved a vehicle chase in traffic where a pickup truck had evaded all means of containment and was headed at high speed towards a busy intersection. A good friend of mine (who later had a distinguished career as a chief of police for a city here in south Florida) was in a two man unit and decided that he would shoot out a tire as they pulled alongside the truck. He fired a single round into the tire and the chase ended right then. The only reason it ended was that the driver was so frightened she quit running.... That tire didn't deflate until about ten minutes later.... My friend "caught hell" over the incident and it was later emphasized in training that the only time our officers would ever fire their weapons at a car was if they were justified in killing the driver, period. Of course all the officers that night felt a lot different about it....
A few years later one of my officers on stakeout at night in plain clothes (car burglary detail) approached a car theft in progress on foot in a parking lot intending to stop the thief before he could start the car (the thief had entered the car and was trying to start it). As he approached the car he saw what looked like a handgun in the thief's hand pointing at him so he fired one shot. That .45 round went through the car door, the car seat, and the thief - killing him instantly (after penetrating everything the round went right through the chest cavity side to side taking out all the important stuff along the way... I won't go into the remaining details.
My take on the subject is simple. You only fire on the occupants of a vehicle when you're justified in killing them. I'd never attempt to "stop a car" it's the operator I'd go after, period. By the way shooting into an occupied vehicle is a real crap shoot. I've seen quite a few incidents where the occupants were never touched while bullets went every which way.... and one or two where a single shot cancelled someone's ticket in very questionable circumstances... I can also remember one particularly bad incident where a bunch of cops fired at a vehicle and managed to send two or three of them to the hospital (and the bad guy never fired a shot). Every officer was wounded by someone on the other side of the car... the kind of thing you might see in a bad movie.
ForumSurfer
Member
I agree, but as a civilian I have a hard time fathoming that scenario. Even if the guy is trying to run me down, my best bet is to seek cover (because I'll need to seek cover after I stop the driver, anyway).
lemaymiami
Member
stopping the driver
There was an incident a few years back that involved a son trying to run down his mother (nice family...) in a crowded parking lot. If I remember correctly he did manage to run over several people before crashing the vehicle. My first impression is that any armed individual would have been well justified in using deadly force to stop him from killing people, since that's just what he was doing....
By the way, I've seen violent death in many, many forms but nothing compares to what a car can do to the human animal. When you've seen enough of it you just plain quit looking if don't have to.... at least that's how I dealt with it over the years.
There was an incident a few years back that involved a son trying to run down his mother (nice family...) in a crowded parking lot. If I remember correctly he did manage to run over several people before crashing the vehicle. My first impression is that any armed individual would have been well justified in using deadly force to stop him from killing people, since that's just what he was doing....
By the way, I've seen violent death in many, many forms but nothing compares to what a car can do to the human animal. When you've seen enough of it you just plain quit looking if don't have to.... at least that's how I dealt with it over the years.
ForumSurfer
Member
You stand a really high chance of hitting a bystander when you miss or when the round passes through the car, changes directions and exits the car. I'm not sure if that is the best time to draw and shoot. If the assailant is moving at any decent rate of speed, it is likely to all be over or out of your range before you can accurately engage the target.
Amen. I was hit by a Cadillac (i was driving a motorcycle) at 55 mph. The forces involved were just plain frightening and it was only dumb luck that I was able to walk, er crawl away.
<MoA
Member
Alternate scenarios!
The urban myth used to be that the .357 Magnum, with it's high levels of penetration, would and could "easily" penetrate an engine block. As a retired automotive engineer, I can attest to the current thin walls in modern lightweight cast engine blocks, and that they are NOT designed to resist any sort of penetration. They only hold the head up, and contain the coolant and the various reciprocating bits! So, perhaps a .357, esp,. a heavy jacketed bullet, might well penetrate the block, and then connect with an equally unarmored piston, and let the coolant and/or oil and or/high-pressure fuel, "out", and thus might eventually shut'r down by "mass internal corruption".
Perhaps my .454 Casull, penetrating the outer block wall, hitting a rod or piston, would destroy it enough to stall the engine. As well, the collected bits that the bullet sets into motion, would possibly disrupt normal operational motions. If you happen to hit a cylinder head, especially one of the new aluminum heads, you'd for sure crack it, and possibly drop a valve, injector or plug into the rapidly spinning gubbins, and there'd be a whole lot of "unfriendly" noises, and possibly an instant fire.
Up in the Arctic once upon a time, when I worked with Big Oil on problematic polar bears, I had my "trusty" .340 Weatherby with me, and I fired a 225 gr Spitzer @ 3000 fps at the engine area in an abandoned junker truck from about 40 yards. There was quite a "thunk" (but nothing else...) when it connected with the block, and despite my hopes that the near 4000+ ft-lb of energy would have literally exploded the engine, it just made a little (.338, probably) hole in the side, and stopped inside somewhere.
Better to, as many have said, connect with the driver!
The urban myth used to be that the .357 Magnum, with it's high levels of penetration, would and could "easily" penetrate an engine block. As a retired automotive engineer, I can attest to the current thin walls in modern lightweight cast engine blocks, and that they are NOT designed to resist any sort of penetration. They only hold the head up, and contain the coolant and the various reciprocating bits! So, perhaps a .357, esp,. a heavy jacketed bullet, might well penetrate the block, and then connect with an equally unarmored piston, and let the coolant and/or oil and or/high-pressure fuel, "out", and thus might eventually shut'r down by "mass internal corruption".
Perhaps my .454 Casull, penetrating the outer block wall, hitting a rod or piston, would destroy it enough to stall the engine. As well, the collected bits that the bullet sets into motion, would possibly disrupt normal operational motions. If you happen to hit a cylinder head, especially one of the new aluminum heads, you'd for sure crack it, and possibly drop a valve, injector or plug into the rapidly spinning gubbins, and there'd be a whole lot of "unfriendly" noises, and possibly an instant fire.
Up in the Arctic once upon a time, when I worked with Big Oil on problematic polar bears, I had my "trusty" .340 Weatherby with me, and I fired a 225 gr Spitzer @ 3000 fps at the engine area in an abandoned junker truck from about 40 yards. There was quite a "thunk" (but nothing else...) when it connected with the block, and despite my hopes that the near 4000+ ft-lb of energy would have literally exploded the engine, it just made a little (.338, probably) hole in the side, and stopped inside somewhere.
Better to, as many have said, connect with the driver!
kingpin008
Member
No offense, but you didn't really make a point to begin with. You said:
And I answered. I never said anything about the proper shot placement being easy - simply that it would be a very important part of getting a car stopped. If that was the point you were trying to make...I never disagreed with you.
Carl N. Brown
Member
Well, Lahti Da!
Lahti L39 that is.
Lahti L39 that is.
steelbird
Member
The round that stops a car is the one that causes a driver to veer off straight into a large tree.
OurSafeHome.net
Member
Nuke it from orbit...
...only way to be sure...
...only way to be sure...
kingcheese
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depends on the car, the engine in it, and shot placement, you could stop a car buy putting a 22 through the fuel delivery system, or igniton system on a vehicle, you get a little honda or toyota, the things are so compact and little that te 22 could go through it and youd stand a good chance at stopping it
a 223 would stop most hondas, toyotas, and smaller cars in general, then you get into the 7.62x54r, its cheap, and it packs a punch, it would destroy an engine block if you could manage to hit it
if you hunting smart cars, you just need a slingshot
a 223 would stop most hondas, toyotas, and smaller cars in general, then you get into the 7.62x54r, its cheap, and it packs a punch, it would destroy an engine block if you could manage to hit it
if you hunting smart cars, you just need a slingshot
Redneck with a 40
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I'm pretty sure a .308 would take out a motor, give me an AR-10 against a vehicle.
Not necessarily. If you "stop" the driver, what's to keep gravity, nerve impulses, or inertia from causing the car to continue moving at a high rate of speed with no one even attempting to control it?
Even a round that could damage the engine or electronic components to the point of stopping the engine cold couldn't always be counted on to stop a car. I coasted a car nearly two miles last week when the engine froze up. It wasn't hard to control and made it up to 50 mph without any problem on a pretty slight but long downhill grade.
IMO, rather than stopping a car, it's best to just not ever pick a fight with one.
mustang_steve
Member
Shoot for right behind the driver's side headlight, from the side. That's where the TCM (transmission control module) is for most cars (between fender and battery). In some cars, the trans will dump into "limp home mode", in others the trans will simply fail instantly.
Keep in mind a battery failure can stop the car too, as losing it will result in an open circuit.
Keep in mind a battery failure can stop the car too, as losing it will result in an open circuit.
jimmyraythomason
Member
Not necessarily. The engine is grounded to the chassis(thereby grounding the alternator to the chassis). As long as the alternator does not need exciter voltage the engine will continue to run. Taking out the transmission/transaxle,either directly or through the ecm would indeed be very effective.
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