What should I do with this pre-64?

[westernrover]

I'm looking to gain skills in riflecraft, as I mentioned in my thread, "Advice on learning skill with rifle?" Well, I've got a great rifle, a pre-64 Model 70. Only it might not be a great rifle to shoot much. It's chambered in .264 Winchester Magnum. I understand the barrels have a short life expectancy due to throat erosion. This one is all original and in "good" condition. There's no rust (it's a stainless steel barrel), but the blueing on the SS is speckled. The stock is scratched and dented. It's basically just been knocked around closets since the 60's. It has no sentimental value to me, but I believe it has some value on the market.

I like the .264 WM, but a .270 would be more practical for me. Factory loads and brass are a lot less costly, and I think it would last longer.

Should I just buy some Nosler brass and load it up with 140 gr. SBT's and a lighter charge of H1000 or 4831 and hope to extend the barrel life? I'd still probably end up shooting it out, but hopefully it would last many years.

Should I sell it and buy a Portugese .270 and shoot that out instead?

Should I keep it in the back of the safe and shoot out the Portugese rifle?

I'm also considering doing more of the shooting with a carbine and maybe making the Model 70 last longer.

 

[ontarget]

Yup, if you can keep it and buy another do that. There are many inexpensive rifles on the market that will be far cheaper to shoot and have readily available factory ammo or reloading components.

 

[LoonWulf]

I'd keep the .264 and probably buy a 6.5cm, that way you can use the same bullets for both.

 

[Sav .250]

You need to slow your roll and do your own home work on that rifle. Get better educated. Opinions, mean nothing if you don`t know anything in the first place. Not being nasty, just stating a fact.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Well, not a Model 70 expert, but I'm 99% sure you don't have an original stainless barrel on a Pre-64- and you generally can't blue stainless steel either. Could it have already been rechambered with an aftermarket barrel? Or, is it possible you have one of the newer "classic" series rifles which have gone back to the Pre-64 controlled feed system and are available in stainless?

If you have a genuine Pre-64, I would leave it alone and sell it to a collector of such things, and use the $$ to buy a new-production M70 already chambered for a modern, available caliber. Just my 2cents.....

 

[Offfhand]

Don't worry about short barrel life. I have a .264 with at least a thousand rounds thru it and accuracy is as good as when new. Actually better, because of better bullets these days.

 

[Officers'Wife]

No sentimental attachment? That's sad, that means you haven't taken it out and just leave it to wilt away in a closet somewhere unloved and unappreciated. You should take it out, get to know each other, have an adventure or five. Learn it's little quirks and capabilities... Then decide what to do with it.

 

[Jim Watson]

Sounds like it is a used rifle, not a Significant Historical Artifact and Valuable Collector's Item.
Appropriate use, hunting with seasonal zero check and a little offhand practice, it will last many seasons.
Reloads at the .270 level, it will last nearly as long as a .270.
And if you do manage to wear it out, you can buy it a new barrel in .264 or any of the other short magnums. 7mm Remington Magnum is the final destination of a lot of .264s.

 

[z7]

I’d say it depends on how much money you are interested in spending, how much you want to shoot and what the target is

First instinct is to buy 100pcs if quality brass and shoot th crap out of it, do some reading on fundamentals of marksmanship as it applies to a lighter field rifle

Get to where you can consistently be accurate with it, that might be 1.5” at 100 yds or .5” depending on you AND the rifle

After 1000rds or so, rebarrel it with really good barrel (krieger, bartlien, etc) in the caliber of you choice

If you don’t want to shoot the crap out of that gun, get a bolt action 223 in a fast twist, load heavies (77’s or more) and learn to shoot a rifle really well with a light, cheaper bullet

Collector value doesn’t mean much to me, I don’t have a safe queen, the. Nicest rifle I have is cerekoted and gets shot at Least 500 shots a year if not more

 

[someguy2800]

If there is no sentimental value sell it and buy something in a cheaper more available caliber. For the value of that gun you could buy a new model 70 in 270 or 6.5 Creedmoor or 30-06 or whatever you want, and a ruger american in 7.52x39 that will accurately shoot $4 a box ammo, so you can really get some serious practice time in.

It would be silly in my opinion to use that rifle as a practice gun. It would be like using a 1967 chevelle and $9 a gallon race gas to teach someone to drive.

 

[Skylerbone]

Winchester did produce pre64s with blued SS barrels but the process changed over time. If the finish is blasted (matte) then it was blasted and plated before bluing. If it looks like a traditional bluing then it’s a newer process (Du-Lite). The barrel itself will be marked Winchester if original or factory rebarreled.

What to do with it? Well, what’s been done so far? If you’ve shot it and it shot well then keep shooting it. If you’re own skills are in question then join a club, find a mentor, and have them shoot it to determine what’s what before investing too much. Another option is the smith to have the bore scoped and chamber cast, not a bad idea for any old, but new-to-you rifle.

A replacement stock or refinish are other possibilities if it’s good to go otherwise. Plenty of options but some diligence is due. I’m not sure what prices are like in your area, but a local store has the Ruger American in .270 on clearance for $249 that’s daring me to buy it. If you don’t love it, have a proficient ebay’er and a local FFL move it along for you then come back here for ideas on new rifle/caliber choices. DO NOT start touching up anything with the idea it will improve selling value, just get clear pictures and keep it honest.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Winchester did produce pre64s with blued SS barrels but the process changed over time. If the finish is blasted (matte) then it was blasted and plated before bluing. If it looks like a traditional bluing then it’s a newer process (Du-Lite). The barrel itself will be marked Winchester if original or factory rebarreled.

Fascinating....that had to be one of the earliest uses of stainless alloys in firearms construction? And why all the effort to blue it, perhaps because the buying public was wary of the strength of the materials? Or was it just more aesthetic when married to a blued receiver?

Could that have something to do with the short life the OP mentions? IIRC, many early stainless steels were rather soft.....?

The very earliest stainless gun part I can think of was the piston assembly on the Garand.

 

[Skylerbone]

Not sure as to the why except that the industry seemed to hit a real renaissance period (IMO) after the war and produced some beautiful firearms. I know Remington also blued stainless at one point using a plating process to accept blue. My guess would be aesthetics and the argument I often hear that SS makes for a more accurate barrel, and for the day, a somewhat “futuristic” material. Just a WAG though.

 

[Offfhand]

Winchester's first commercial application of stainless steel barrels were for M-70 .220 Swift rifles. The blueing process involved a plating of copper, which would adhere to stainless, followed by an iron plating, which adhered to the copper and could be blued. The process left a soft matt finish which was quite durable. Later, Winchester used a direct application blueing process which was smoother and identified by a rather grayish tone and not as durable. Attached are a couple of Pre-64 stainless barrels showing both .220 Swift and .264 Mag. Perhaps the differences can be seen.

 

[.308 Norma]

Deleted

 

[sage5907]

If you have a Winchester pre 64 Model 70 you have one of the best firearms ever manufactured. You have several options on using this rife. First of all, there are many parts available to update and change this rifle and still retain the value of the rifle. Up front, I would recommend that you shoot the rifle as much as you want without concern about the barrel. Many barrels in many calibers are available on eBay for around $100 and it only costs about $75 to have the barrel replaced by a gunsmith. I've had it done several times. Another point is that time is on your side. A good option would be to trade it for a similar 30-06. There are many pre 64 30-06 rifles available, this caliber is the easiest to get, and one could be available to you at any time. GunBroker has many high quality rifles for sale. It would also be easy to change the bolt body and barrel to a 30-06 if you wanted to go down that route. You could sell the existing bolt body and barrel on eBay. When it comes to a Model 70 it's all about the condition of the metal. On a standard grade or featherweight only about 20% of the value is in the stock. There's no way I would trade one of my pre 64 rifles for a newly manufactured rifle.

 

[Offfhand]

Mr. Sage5907 offers some excellent suggestions about what can be done with a Pre-64 M-70. The action alone is a treasure as it offers endless possibilities for conversion to a custom rifle. The magnum size bolt face offers great options for rebarreling to other, perhaps more desirable, magnum calibers such as .300 Win, .338 Win, and bunches of others. One example is shown here: a Pre 64 Mag. action that I had rebarreled to 7mm Rem. Mag and restocked. A bit of foresight and planning, plus working with talented gunsmiths, can yield fine results and a rifle that won't be hidden in a closet..

 

[Scooter22]

I would keep that classic and load it to .270 specs. One thing I haven't seen mentioned and you'ld have to look into is powder selection. Theres a lot of new powders now that don't burn as hot as the standard powders available when the .264 was introduced. So barrel life would be longer. Good luck.

 

[sage5907]

You haven't really told us much about your rifle. If it doesn't have a recoil pad the first thing I would do is to have a gunsmith install a Pachmayr Decelerator black 1 inch thick 752B recoil pad. This is really important. If you really want to learn how to shoot it accurately I would suggest installing a Timney #401 blue trigger. You can tweek the trigger pull down to make fit your needs. I make the adjustment in 1/8 turn increments every time I go to the range until I get it right. Those two changes will change a clumsy rifle into a really sweet shooter. It's a little over $100 for the recoil pad installed, and another $100 for the trigger. As to a load, Reloader 22 would be my choice in working up a load. I would pick bullets between 120 and 130 grain to develop my loads. Sierra makes a 130 grain GameKing which is a boattail hollow point with a thick jacket. You can shoot it at 3,000 fps which is close to 270 performance. I buy a lot of bullets from Graf & Sons, Mexico, MO but I noticed they were out of stock. RJ's Gun Sales in Broken Arrow, OK has the bullets @ $41.18 per box. Sierra also makes a 120 grain ProHunter. I have yet to own a pre 64 Model 70 that wouldn't shoot minute of angle groups.

 

[Slamfire]

I talked to a bud who claimed his modern 264 Win Mag (I forget the make) key holed bullets when there was around 800 rounds through the barrel. The things have a reputation for a short barrel life. While the ballistics are just wonderful with a 6.5 bullet, you know, how many people can actually hit a pie pan at 700, 1000 yards, without a whole bunch of sighting shots? The further you go out with the thing, on paper, a 264 Win Mag just looks better and better, but the kicker is, how many people can actually shoot well at distance? It is a fraction of the number of people who think they can shoot well at 600 plus yards.

Even though I am more of a 30-06 fan boy, a Win 70 claw action in 270 Win is a classic combination and makes for an excellent all around rifle.

Look, if you don't want to spend the time and money developing 264 Win Mag loads, and you are not willing to spend the money getting the thing rebarreled, (check into the cost of that, its between ouch and bong!) then trade the thing off and get a nice new M70 classic in 270 Win. The Super Grade versions are slick and smooth and if I did not already have so many M70's, I might have gotten one.

 

[Gordon]

Well #1 the 6.5mm caliber is the latest greatest love child of todays rifle shooters. Some of us developed a like for the 6.5x55 and .264 Win Mag in the 60s, but I will move on from that. Yours is a very rare Stainless barreled .264 and that was to avoid the much ballyhooed short barrel life from mostly those 100 grain loads at Mach 3.5+ that predator shooters were blasting out of the rifle . The early stainless barrels indeed did not take the early blueing attempts well but probably all most doubled thew barrel life I've been told. 140 grain bullets at 3100 fps is actually a "mild" load today , I used H870 powder to get it for mettalic shiloette competion from the very early 80s in my Westerner with 26" barrel and that barrel lasted 2000 rounds before accuracy fell off , it was the ugly stainless one . That load is much flatter shooting than a 130 grain .270 winchester, even flatter than my .270 WSM which is my favorite hunting round for game up to elk. So, I would tune the trigger as it is the best trigger for tuning I know of, I would fuul length fiberglass bed the action . I would clean the barrel very well with bronze brushes and a good copper bore solvent and many patches. Put a set of Talley rings and a VX 2 up series Leupold scope of at least 3-9 power and sight the gun in at 200 yards , or 1.5" high at 100 yards which will give you point on hold to all most 350 yards and shoot anything elk size or down with the better factory 140 loads.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

You will not live long enough to shoot out the barrel on that rifle -- few people ever manage that feat.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I'm not sure why people are saying it's a barrel eater. That all depends on how it's loaded. I'm sure factory ammo is pretty hot but my Hornady manual says a 140 grn. bullet can be loaded down to 2600 fps. That doesn't seem like a barrel burner to me. I load my .223 at 2800 fps. Or maybe I'm missing something here. I'm don't have a lot of experience burning barrels out.

I would just keep the rifle and shoot it. If you don't reload...start. 264 wouldn't be my first choice in cartridges, or even my second. Belted magnums have sort of been covered by the sands of time but that doesn't mean you can't reload for one and shoot it.

I do all of my range shooting with a .223. Absolutely the cheapest rifle cartridge to shoot. I don't even think about going thru 100 rds a week. 0.16 a round using cheap powder.

 

[Slamfire]

Belted magnums have sort of been covered by the sands of time but that doesn't mean you can't reload for one and shoot it.

Good memory jog. I am not a fan of belted magnums because the case to shoulder distance is not standardized. It differs between chambers because a belted magnum headspaces on the belt. Anyone can find threads were reloaders report a short case life with belted magnums because they don't know, and don't have the special case gages needed not to oversize the brass. These gages can be found in this article:

Extending Cartridge Case Life
https://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar46.htm

You can look up the current price for a belted magnum gage, a Wilson type is $37 bucks before shipping https://www.sinclairintl.com/reload...ls/wilson-adjustable-case-gage-prod35274.aspx So add that into the cost of cases, dies, shellholders, etc.

Once your dies are set up for one rifle, that does not mean you can size belted magnum brass for another, of the same caliber, and have it be correctly sized. You will have to go through all the trouble of setting up the gage, measuring the fired case, and setting up the die for the next rifle of the caliber. It is a total bother. Plus, with a 375 H&H M70 push feed, I have had rim lock with belted magnums. The cases slide in the magazine, during recoil, and the belt on the top cartridge ended up behind the rim of the cartridge below, resulting in rim lock. For all the decades of ballyhoo by gunwriters, that the belted magnum was the cartridge for dangerous game, I never once read anything discussing rim lock with a belted magnum. It might have hurt sales, and if you don't know, Gunwriters are shills for the industry. They only "educate" you on what you need to know to buy. I don't want a self jamming cartridge design in any weapon where time is of the essence. The belted magnum was one of those British proprietary designs, probably worked fine in double rifles, but like rimmed designs, has issues which can create function failures. The shooting community has more than accepted them, there are belted magnum fanatics, but the belted magnum case is not the best design for either function or reloading. But it sure works for increasing profit for firearm companies.

The belted magnum is a triumph of mass marketing, sort of like the bat wings and dagmars on the cars of the 1950's.





1958 Packard


(ever walked into one of these vintage bat wings? the things hurt!)

 

[Jim Watson]

belted magnum was one of those British proprietary designs, probably worked fine in double rifles, but like rimmed designs, has issues which can create function failures.

The belted magnum was an early 20th century means of getting express rifle performance in a Mauser bolt action, it was not meant for double rifles. It was to give headspace control with the long tapered, shallow shouldered Cordite cartridges. When you see a double rifle made in a belted magnum calibre because of the decline of the superior rimmed cartridge, it will have the same trick extractors as for a rimless cartridge.

Your late Packard era advertisement and photo are interesting. By that time, a Packard was just a "badge engineered" Studebaker. The fins are right off the Hawk series of Studebakers.