What should I expect from a 1911?

[Control Group]

I'm not going to be able to afford it for a while, but I'm pondering my next handgun purchase. Since I don't own one, one of the contenders is a 1911 in .45. But I don't know what to make of all the things I've read on here about them.

I'll admit that I'm not (yet, at least) much of a tinkerer when it comes to guns. I pretty much want to get the gun, give it a quick lube, then have it "just work" from there on out (given proper cleaning and basic care, of course). Some of the stuff I've read about 1911s has me pretty concerned on this point. Comments like "you can't expect a 1911 to feed HPs without work" kind of put me off, if they're accurate. Since .45 would be the biggest caliber I'd own, it would be my first choice to practice with and use for SD, if necessary. I've seen an awful lot of people just sort of assume that if you're buying a 1911, you're going to be dropping the price of the gun again into it for a trigger job, feed ramp polishing, barrel throating, sight replacement, spring replacement, guide rod replacement, etc., etc.

Now, I'm not knocking that practice if that's what's involved, it will just mean that the 1911's not for me. Spending $500 - $1000 is a pretty big deal to my wallet; if the gun is actually going to cost twice that, it's simply out of my price range.

So, at the risk of starting a holy war, am I too worried? Can I get a 1911 out of the box that's functional (and I don't mean as smooth and perfect as a gun that's had a couple grand in tuning, just a gun that works at least as well as a "modern" gun I'd get for the same price or less)?

 

[Technosavant]

Can you? Yes.

Just keep in mind that 1911s are individual critters- they require more hand fitting and attention when being built than guns designed for modern CAD/CAM techniques. If you stick to a major maker- the Colt 1991A1, Kimber series II, and Springfield Armory examples are generally going to be quite competent out of the box.

I do own an SA, and I will admit to some teething issues (accuracy), but Springfield took great care of me (lifetime warranty- fantastic if things go wrong), and I am a happy camper. Many reliability and out of the box quality issues go back to 1970s and 1980s model Colts, which were not fit for sale and required immediate gunsmithing. The modern 1911A1 example is good to go out of the box. Just be sure that, if smithing ever is required, you use a competent gunsmith for the work.

Honestly, I would recommend a Springfield Loaded model for you- it fits right in your price range and the customer service goes a long way towards helping you feel warm and fuzzy about your choice.

 

[Marko Kloos]

The vast majority of 1911s work just fine out of the box. The beauty of the design is that you can extensively customize it to your liking, but nobody says you have to do it.

A Springfield Milspec or G.I. model, for example, is good to go out of the box already, and there are few modifications I'd want to do to a Milspec anyway.

 

[telli97]

1911 Choice

I am also in the same situation as "Control Group)" Back in the early 90's I had a Colt .45 ACP. Gun worked great, but I bought the basic model and probably spent an additonal $500-$600 dollars on mod's/upgrades. I too want a nice .45 ACP basically for arget shooting and it would have to have all the items I want: Ambi Saftey, Nice grips, beavertail saftey, etc. I'm not looking for a competition model, as I would only shoot at best 500-1000 rounds per year in this gun. I have been looking at the Springfield loaded model, both in SS and Black (Parkerized), which fall into the $700-$800 range, Kimber's equivalant, and SW 1911.

Any updates would be great - Pro's/Con's on each model. As with Control Group, price is a factor and I want to best for my money.

Thanks Guys...
Telli97

 

[Old Fuff]

Well your questions are good ones, and it's nice to see someone who thinks before they act.

The original 1911 pistol is an early 20th century design that came about when guns were made out of machined steel parts – either forgings or high-carbon steel bar stock. This is a great way to make a handgun, but in today’s economy it is also the most expensive way.

Manufacturers have tried to keep the cost down by substituting parts made using other materials and technologies. Sometimes this has worked, but in other instances not.

While assembling a pistol in a factory is not particularly difficult if a basic gun is involved, it does take skill and the necessary tools and inspection gages. Too many manufacturers cut costs here – especially with lower cost guns, and it shows.

Then we have the owners that want a pistol that will feed any kind of ammunition, shoot two-inch groups at 50 yards, have a clean-breaking trigger pull of not over four pounds, come loaded with all of the popular accessories, and not cost over five or six hundred dollars “out the door.†Obviously these expectations are not realistic.

Then we have the folks that are determined to home-gunsmith they’re guns, whether they know what they’re doing or not. Very few are willing to invest in instructional material (manuals, videos etc.) or specialized tools or gauges that are necessary to do the job right. Then it comes as a great surprise when the darn no-good piece of …. won’t work right.

Magazines are a critical component of any semi-automatic pistol, but some insist on using aftermarket magazines of questionable quality and prefer those that squeeze eight rounds into a space Browning only put seven. Of course something has to give, and sometimes it’s the pistols reliability.

So does this mean you absolutely can’t have a reliable and accurate pistol within your budget? Not necessarily. 1911Tuner has a thread you can find in the gunsmithing section where he took a low-cost Springfield Armory mil-spec .45, substituted a few parts, and ran it through a 1000 round grueling test without any serious problems. I’m sure this thread will turn up some satisfied owners that are well satisfied with what they bought. I also suspect they will be the ones that didn’t mess with the pistol after they bought it.

 

[Tom Servo]

Then we have the folks that are determined to home-gunsmith they’re guns, whether they know what they’re doing or not. Very few are willing to invest in instructional material (manuals, videos etc.) or specialized tools or gauges that are necessary to do the job right. Then it comes as a great surprise when the darn no-good piece of …. won’t work right.

When I hear and read alot of the 1911 hate out there, I wonder how many of the folks spouting it fall in this group. The only real clunkers I've seen have been a Charles Daly (which was poorly maintained) and an old secondhand Defender I had back in the early '90s. Every other time I've encountered a bad 1911, it's been made that way through armchair gunsmithing.

I've no experience with recent Colts, but I can tell you that Springfields are great for the price, Kimbers are "loaded" if you've got a bit more to spend, and Para has some really novel ideas for the platform. Stick with a reputable brand and a model that's been around for at least a couple of years, and you should be fine.

 

[XavierBreath]

What should you expect from a 1911?

You should expect it to work out of the box with most ammo, be reasonably accurate, carry well, and be very durable.

The thing about 1911's is they are not a brand of gun, but a type of gun. There are many makers, many levels of quality, and many different ideas of what are proper specs. If you get a mid range gun from one of the major manufacturers, you can expect to get the qualities I listed above as long as you don't modify it. Once you start to modify a reliable gun, the modifier takes the blame for the reliability issues.

As you go up in quality, you get tighter guns with tighter chambers. This generally equates into more finickiness. Some people buy a $2000 gun and shoot surplus ammo through it and complain of problems. If you put good ammo in these guns, they should work as advertised. If they don't the maker will generally make it right.

It is difficult to make a durable and reliable 1911 for under $500 without cutting a corner that will impact something. Springfield has done this successfully with thier GI45, and the sales of this gun show it. I don't have personal experience with other 1911s below $500, but I have seen a few. As long as the round counts don't get really high, they seem to do OK, but I wouldn't expect the longevity to compare.

For my money, the Colt NRM pistols are the best deals out there. Runner up would be the Springfield Mil-Spec. Third would be the Springfield GI45 if you are on a tight budget.

 

[TRK2AJK]

my experience with 1911 design pistols

first of all, i only own colts right now. so you can consider me biased against other makers. if you want a stock 1911 to run right, you should stick with ball type ammo. that was what they were designed to shoot. i only had one 1911 that would not reliably feed ball ammo, and that was a colt combat commander that i bought used in pretty bad shape. i had a local smith try to bring it back to life but no joy.
second, i would reccommend staying with a 5" gun. that is how JMB designed it. enough said. i have an officers model gun and it has proven itself reliable, but not everyone has such great luck like me.
third, i would reccomend buying a single stack gun. i had no luck with my one para ordnance p14 limited lda and any of the 5 14 round-magazines that i had with it.ymmv
good luck with your decision, i think if you go with my above suggestions,
i think you will find a great pistol that will give you years of service.
one last thing, you might as well buy a colt so you don't suffer PONY ENVY.

 

[dmallind]

I speak with limited experience and even more limited gunsmithing knowledge so i will say only that I bought a SW1911 after the same consideration and investigation you are doing here, and have found it to be perfectly reliable and exceptionally accurate with both FMJ and JHP ammo. I went for one with an external extractor which is frowned upon by some JMB purists, but I find it works admirably. I am sure many other 1911 variants also do but perosonally would stick to well known mid-priced makers and models.

 

[Krag]

Gunsmith charges!

Sorry, I couldn't resist that one.

 

[Sean Smith]

I've owned several 1911s... 2 Colt Delta Elites, a late-production Colt 01991, a Kimber Custom Stainless Target and a Para-Ordnance. Only the P-O had reliability issues. All the other guns were excellent right out of the box. I've had several 1911s customized, but that was for fun, not because the guns didn't work as well or better than the Glocks, Sigs, etc. that I've also owned.

Part of the rep is because Colt was the main 1911 maker for a very long time, and their quality from, say, 1970-2000 was an on-again, off-again sort of thing. Then again, both my Delta Elites were made during that period, and they still ran fine out of the box.

Another factor is that there are a STUPENDOUS number of 1911-pattern guns out there. Alot of them are off-brand junk guns, too; a 1911 made by STI is not equal to a 1911 made by Chucky D. More guns = more complaints, but not necessarily a disproportionate number of complaints compared to other makes.

Alot of people buy 1911s, have them worked on by a local loser who claims to be a "gunsmith," then when the gun doesn't work, blame the design. No, the 1911 isn't to blame, you hired an unqualified moron working out of a strip mall to cut your gun.

If a Glock doesn't work, people just have Glock fix it under warranty. But for some reason 1911 owners won't do this. Why? Just so they can complain about how much it costs to get a 1911 to run right?

And sometimes people are just morons. They go out and buy an accuracy-guaranteed 1.5" @ 50 yard bullseye gun, and wonder why it won't run dirty or with junk ammo. Or they try some dremel-'smithing, and wonder why the gun went full auto.

 

[dmallind]

Well based on my newbie to 1911 experience I would also say you should expect to want to buy another one.

Addictive little buggers.

 

[gc70]

1911s are fine guns. If the design was problemsome, it would not have lasted 94 years. Get a basic 5-inch gun from a good maker (Colt, Kimber, Springfield), use quality 7-round magazines, and you will have a reliable gun.

You can (and many people do) spend thousands of dollars on one-of-a-kind guns from big-name custom makers, but that is to satisfy the ego. You can also (and many people do) destroy perfectly good 1911s by home-gunsmithing with the thousands of after-market parts for the 1911. Or you can try to put together a custom gun on the cheap by using a half-baked "gunsmith" (I have never encountered a gunsmith who wouldn't work on a 1911).

 

[spacemanspiff]

expect to be told by a 1911-snob "you shoulda bought brand x, that there brand y won't be nuttin' but trouble for ya.



so to head you off at the pass, lemme just get this outta the way: you should buy a kimber.

 

[Maddock]

Some good advice here, especially Old Fuff’s. I am not any kind of gunsmith, though I do have a bit of experience with 1911s.
My take is this: The farther you get from the original design, materials and fabrication methods the more likely you are to have problems. Use quality magazines with quality ammo with a quality, tuned and fitted extractor and you will likely have no problems.
And don’t let Bubba the Gunbutcher anywhere near your gun.

 

[ppcrusa]

Having recently suffered through a 1911 cycle... I can honestly say the Smith and Wesson 1911 is an excellent example..
Mine has been 100% reliable since day one. The only issue I had was with the firing pin safety link. A little adjustment on the grip safety to link engagement surface and the problem is gone..
The problem was the slide would not go back on after disassembly. The reason was the grip safety was not cut quite enough.. It was as simple 20 second Dremel job.
I would buy another one if I could.
And also when I say suffer.. I mean it. I tried a Para Ordnance LDA Carry.. What a disaster. Would not even feed FMJ. Then once that was finally straightened out, after 150 rounds TOTAL through the gun severe wear was seen in the slide area where the barrel touches the breech. I ditched it..
Suffering #2 was with a Springfield Champion. Shot high and to the left. The slide "Serrations" were really that.. They would draw blood. Factory kept it 8 weeks for high left shooting.. Sent it back with a front sight replacement and they took metal off the frame where the barrel contacts. Also they did NOT find the inferior quality sear.. but they "went completely through it".. Here, have some pictures..
Check out the wonderful machining on the frame..
http://www.netjunky.us/sear/frame1.jpg

Can't forget the lovely "fake stainless" parts either..
http://www.netjunky.us/sear/safety.jpg

How about the sear??
http://www.netjunky.us/sear/sear2.jpg
http://www.netjunky.us/sear/sear4.jpg

Springfield's idea of "quality" and my idea are real different.
It was not until I bought the SW1911 that the suffering stopped.
I hope this helps you in your choice.

 

[OKC .45 ACP]

Expense

Don't buy it. You will go broke buying more!

Currently, I have about 11 of 'em. They are like Pokemon, ya gotta get 'em all. Then you start with the custom makers. Ouch. But they are just so good. All of my 1911s that I own now run with any ammo. I've had two that I had problems with. One was made by a semi-custom manufacturer with a good rep. Another was a Kimber worked on by a "custom gunsmith" with a fancy website and a forum of his own. That gun was a dog and I sold it. Don't bother emailing me, I won't 'fess up to who it was, it's water under the bridge. Otherwise, they all run perfect and hit POA. About 4 of 'em have been to Thunder Ranch with me. I should be getting a RRA in a few weeks--months. I'm telling you, once you start shooting these guns, you will want more and more!

Bob

 

[unitman]

I bought a Colt NRM Combat Commander last year that has been reliable and accurate with the Colt magazines that came with it. The fit and finish are excellent. I would definately recommend Colt, although I have heard good things about Springfields and S&Ws as well. Expect no less!

 

[tjtucker]

1911

ControlGroup.

Get on the auction sites and look for a custom gun someone is selling. If you want to save some bucks stay away from the high end name makers. I have recently purchased at least 4 custom guns. One was a new $1495.00 gun for $735.00, used carry Colt officers with over $1,100 custom work for $756.00, Colt defender with $800.00 custom work for $835.00 and I just won an auction on a Colt with documented receipts for $1,600 custom work for $999.00. All except the last one which I haven't received yet will shoot inch groups at 15 yards hand held. As you can see you can get some great deals if you look around and spend some time. The ideal is to let someone else pay for the custom work. TAX TIME & Christmas is a great time to find good deals. I have purchased at least 8 guns over the net and never had a problem.

TJ

 

[Sharps Shooter]

I'm with OKC. Stay away from 1911s - they're addictive! I hadn't even handled one since I was in the service 30 some odd years ago. Then, last fall I got one. Now I have two and tomorrow we're going down to the big city of Salt Lake to look at another. The ones I have now are both Kimbers - a .45 ACP and a .38 Super, and neither has ever bobbled once with any ammunition. They're both more accurate than I am. Tomorrow I hope to look at a Commander size Dan Wesson in 10mm. I doubt I'll buy though. It's tax time and money is tight. Besides I had a nasty experience with a Dan Wesson revolver years ago and I hold a grudge a long time.

Anyway, my experience with modern day, off the shelf, 1911s is quite limited. But I've had good luck with them so far. I traded off a SIG 229 (.357 Sig.) for my .38 Super 1911 and I'm happy.

 

[MikeIsaj]

Well, here's my two cents worth;

First, I've never actually owned a 1911, but I've fired lots of different gov't ones in the Marines. Carried it as my side arm for 11 years. I've also fired a fair share of other peoples 1911s of varying quality. My opinion is it's a good reliable gun out of the box that can be tuned to be an excellent weapon.

I've only had one feeding failure with a gov't 1911. It turned out to be a combination of a replaced barrel that didn't get the ramp polished and hollow point ammo. Unfortunatly it was in a real shooting scenario and my confidence in the weapon went down mostly due to the circumstances. I'm here to complain so I guess it turned out allright.

Keep in mind that the new price reflects the time put into making the weapon. Cheaper priced new guns generally don't have the refinement of a more expensive gun. You get what you pay for. I've found that people unhappy with their 1911 generally bought a cheap gun and expected top performance.

 

[tbeb]

10 years ago I bought a new Springfield Mil-Spec 1911-A1. (Springfield still makes this pistol.) It has a 5" barrel, high profile (easy to see) 3-dot fixed sights, and a parkerized finish. I've fired a bunch of 230 gr. lead round nose reloads and 200-250 Federal Hydra-Shok 230 gr. JHP's. Pistol has never malfunctioned.

 

[RicVa]

You can get a very reliable Springfield WWII model for a very reasonable price. Mine has been 100% reliable. No problems of any kind.

 

[junke]

OKC .45 hit it on the nose. at worst you wont be sorry if you buy a 1911. and at best you will be an addict ... or worst i guess depends on how you look at it