What to do if a revolver with a bobbed hammer is cocked to SA?

[Old Fuff]

In my case, as pointed out in earlier posts, the revolver would be DAO in the first place.

But anyway, I doubt that in the situation you proposed the gun owner would suffer any liability - if he had followed a command "to lay the gun on the ground and step back."

While it's far from true, the public presumes that a police officer knows everything about guns - of all kinds - thanks to TV, movies, etc.

In real life if the officer was stumped he/she would have the option of calling a supervisor and let them handle it.

If the officer went forward and goofed, resulting in an unintended discharge it would be their problem.

 

[Ghost Tracker]

Have to agree with several previous posters. A completely spurless bobbed hammer should absolutely mean DAO. In a modern revolver, a spurless SA is like removing the front on the trigger guard like a Colt "Fitt's Special". It's, IMHO, unacceptable.

 

[Stophel]

I'm still lost as to how a spurless gun could accidentally get cocked anyway. And the maneuvers you would have to do to purposely get one cocked are just, well, stupid. Just don't do that.

 

[X-Rap]

I guess I will have to disagree with the liability aspect of an AD from what would be IMO a difficult to justify modification. The police may not have an issue but if someone was injured there is no telling what direction things would go. Like I said, I think it would be hard to find an expert to defend the mod. I brought it up mainly because that is about the only scenario in which I have heard in which the SA function was left in tact.

 

[9mmepiphany]

OK now do that after you have just shot an attacker in DA and have gone SA because his accomplice is across the street shooting at you from the get away car and you want a more accurate capability but he takes off because he hears the police sirens.

This is the great fallacy of DA vs. SA defensive shooting...it isn't. Cocking a revolver in a defensive situation is a poor tactical choice. It means you don't have confidence in your own ability to make a shot you are about to take.

If "across the street" is close enough to justify your use of deadly force, you should be responsible enough to have practiced shooting DA at the distance.

 

[X-Rap]

This is all for the sake of discussion and you can paint what scenario you like. The topic has been gone over before and the primary if not only reason for keeping the SA function is to be able to make a better SA shot. Search prior threads and see for yourself. I would argue your point on accuracy but agree with your reasoning on not taking the long shot.
I still ask why in the world would a bobbed hammer be able to fire SA in answer to the OP, it's simply a bad idea.

 

[Old Fuff]

We agree on the point of removing the S.A. option on a bobbed hammer, but frankly it is quite possible to keep one's shots in the 10-ring of a B-27 target @ 50 yards using a .38 Special Colt Detective Special or S&W M&P with a 2" barrel. Much easier with one with a 4" barrel - all of this done using the double-action mode exclusively.

In years past this level of skill was fairly common. Today it's largely forgotten.

 

[X-Rap]

So you can shoot as well or better from a rest DA at 50 yds than SA at the same?

 

[Old Fuff]

So you can shoot as well or better from a rest DA at 50 yds than SA at the same?

No, but I doubt that in a serious situation a bench rest will be available.

What I can do (and a lot of others also) is keep my shots inside an 8" (give or take) eliptical circle at 50 yards, while shooting double-action. That should be good enough to get done, whatever has to be done.

Now as a practical matter I probably wouldn't try it unless circumstances left me no choice. At that distance it would be wiser to withdraw if possible.

What I am trying to point out is that accurate work can be done in the double-action mode at longer distances then many people think.

I was under the impression that this thread was concerned with revolvers that had bobbed hammers, and I would hope that those hammers had been modified for DAO.

 

[X-Rap]

I didn't say a bench rest but it doesn't matter, we seem to agree that SA isn't matched by DA in accuracy and a bobbed hammer should be DAO. I am an advocate of the DAO defense gun for its snag free lines as well as its simplicity in firing but as with you I'm sure, I appreciate a good SA trigger on a more general purpose belt gun that rides in a holster and has an ample hammer spur and I am a much better shot with the later.

 

[guyfromohio]

Feral cat.

 

[toivo]

Dig a hole three feet deep and bury it. Then go home and pray for forgiveness, promising never to cock a bobbed-hammer revolver again, or to even own one that can be cocked.

 

[788Ham]

Get online to Numrich, order a new hammer for the danged thing, have a smith put it in, and be done with it! Then you'll know how to let the hammer down when its cocked, simple.

 

[SAA]

I can't believe this is such a huge issue. Train, train, train. If it could safely be cocked, it can safely be decocked. Practice!!!

You can take extra precautions that make the maneuver quite safe, especially if the revolver has a hammer block. Put a finger in the hammer slot, hold the hammer spur back while pulling the trigger. Slowly let the hammer down (finger in hammer slot is preventing hammer fall if hammer accidentally slips), then release trigger as hammer is moving down. With finger off the trigger (hammer block should now be engaged), remove finger from hammer slot and ease the hammer the rest of the way down.

 

[Jim Watson]

In years past this level of skill was fairly common. Today it's largely forgotten.

Forgotten by me, at least. I usta do ok in PPC, DA all the way.
IPSC and IDPA have ruined my accuracy.

But as I said, I also remember when the cockable bobbed hammer was a fairly common thing. It was assumed that you would cock, then shoot, not waltz around with a hot gun in hand. Brandishing a cocked gun is what M Ayoob tells us led to the widespread adoption of DAO in the waning days of the Police Special.

On the other hand, Chick Gaylord said that sawn barrels and bobbed hammers were "suitable for an affair of honor in a telephone booth" and that SA - with spur - should be retained. But that was in 1960.

 

[Old Fuff]

I am an advocate of the DAO defense gun for its snag free lines as well as its simplicity in firing but as with you I'm sure, I appreciate a good SA trigger on a more general purpose belt gun that rides in a holster and has an ample hammer spur and I am a much better shot with the later.

We are in general agreement, but this thread is specific in that it addresses issues concerning bobbed, not spured hammers.

So if you are restricted to a bobbed hammer you have two options, leave the single-action mode in place, or remove it so the revolver becomes DAO.

It has been my experience with others that inattention or maximum stress can lead to a cocked bobbed hammer being lowered in a fumbled manner that results in an unintentional discharge. Further, that training and practice can result in enough skill so that double-action shooting is practical within distances where the revolver is likely to be employed (50 yards maximum, although I have known some that can extend that considerably). With this in mind it may be said that the single-action mode on a defensive revolver is unnecessary, and under some circumstances might even be counterproductive, (under stress the revolver gets cocked when it shouldn't be.)

If someone wants to retain the single-action mode in a revolver that has a bobbed hammer that’s their business. What is important is that we explore the negatives so that they are fully informed before they proceed.

 

[SAA]

What is important is that we explore the negatives so that they are fully informed before they proceed.

We could also explore the positives. Perhaps the op already did. But, rather than turn this thread into another tired modern day DA vs. SA don't-know-how-to-handle-a-hammer debate, how about we just stick to the op?

op:

What to do if a revolver with a bobbed hammer is cocked to SA?
I've always wondered but what would you do if you had a revolver with a bobbed hammer and it still had the notch and was cocked to single action while it was loaded?

 

[Old Fuff]

Note the thread title; What to do if a revolver with a bobbed hammer is cocked to SA?

You gave a good how-to answer on how to lower the hammer in post # 39, while I have questioned the advisability of having a single-action mode on a bobed hammer in the first place. Readers can make their own choice - something I pointed out when I said, If someone wants to retain the single-action mode in a revolver that has a bobbed hammer that’s their business.

Also as I have pointed out, part of my opinion is based on the knowledge of two instances where someone tried to lower a cocked bobbed hammer and came to grief. I consider the matter to be more of one concerning safe gun handling while under stress, then a single-action v. double-action trigger pull issue.

Both Smith & Wesson and Ruger converted literally thousands of standard service revolvers for some of the largest police departments and federal agencies in the country when they requested that the hammer spurs be bobbed. In addition they sold new pre-converted revolvers to both the law enforcement and civilian markets. In all of them the removal of the single-action trigger mode was a required part of the modification. Somewhere in all of that I think someone must have known something.

 

[Prosser]

It sounds nice to be able to cock your DA bobbed hammer to SA so you can have a decent trigger pull.

All that goes out the window, when at the range, you try to go SA and accidentally send the bullet through the top of the range canopy, and in a mortar trajectory down range, miles.

 

[bdb benzino]

I have an old model 12-3 S&W that is smoothly bobbed and has serrations cut into the top to aid in a SA shot. I have been shooting revolvers for 28 years and know well enough to leave the SA alone unless I am practicing with snap caps or firing at the range.
With that said the SA is awesome, and I can decock it all but about 1/8 inch and it will not fire when I let the last eighth fall. I would only try this while shooting at a range or on the farm, but I see no harm as long as you know the dangers and limitations. Like someone said earlier, its not meant to be cocked and left that way! YMMV.

 

[SAA]

One thing I forgot to mention, when you are decocking a bobbed or shrouded-hammered sixgun, ALWAYS use the same hand (strong side) to finger the trigger and thumb the hammer. NEVER use the trigger finger of one hand on the trigger and the thumb of the other hand on the hammer. For maximum control, the tension between the thumb and trigger finger is a crucial element. Use the off hand to steady the gun and keep it pointed in a safe direction, and an off hand finger to do any hammer blocking. Try it both ways on an unloaded gun and you'll feel the difference in control right away.

 

[toivo]

+1. I was taught to use the offhand thumb to block the hammer.

 

[Paladin7]

There was a question earlier on in this thread about how a revolver with a bobbed hammer and a single action sear in place can be cocked into SA Mode... The answer is that trigger can be pulled back half way so the bobbed hammer can be gripped by the other hand and pulled into SA Mode.

so, it is possible and given the discussions already I think it is advisable to convert it to DAO or replace the bobbed hammer with a spur hammer to rectify this situation.

I've been told by some older gentlemen who know something about this from their days in law enforcement that if you sold a revolver in that condition and there was a ND by the new owner, you may bear some liability for the ND. Not entirely likely that this would happen but a lawyer could make the case and you could end up with a problem, especially given the generally accepted precedent of converting these revolvers to DAO by police agencies.