What tools are needed for an AR upper build?

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Exactly. This isnt actual "receiver truing" its just carefully removing enough "roughness" to give a slightly better seat. I have my doubts on exactly how "precision" most AR uppers are. They indeed are capable of amazing accuracy for a lego part semi automatic. I will continue lapping.

Russellc
 
And by the by, since you laid it out there, I'm not averse to pulling apart an S&W revolver without youtube either. I was working under a smith rebuilding revolvers before youtube was a glimmer in someone's eye.

That was a very general statement, not directed at you or others who actually know what's going on inside a firearm, and understand what can and can't be accomplished with a given tool. If you've spent any time on Arfcom, M4carbine.net, etc., you'll see countless examples of people encouraging others to engage in these practices, including guys who just built their first or second AR suddenly pontificating about how to do such things, proclaiming benefits that are egregious exaggerations at best.
 
Oh well, despite chest thumping and self aggrandizement, this lapping of an ARs receiver is a simple task for anyone with common sense who is somewhat mechanically inclined. Its benefits are clear to me. It is a simple task, hardly more than taking burrs off other machined pieces. It simply allows a better fit.

Anything can be overdone and the average guy may think, if a little is good, a lot is better, which is never a good plan. All that said, the hand lapping process is a simple one allowing better fitment, nothing more, nothing less. Common sense is needed, and a little mechanical ability, and nothing is ruined. Even if it was, Im not sure what the damage is, unless you removed so much material the receiver became useless.

As a very young man, I built modified small block Chevrolets and large block Chrysler engines for hot rods/Drag racing/run what you brung bracket cars. The machine shop guys told me I couldnt do that right either. One of them could beat me regularly, not because he was such a great machinist, but because he could afford a rather high dollar car sporting a 426 Hemi of the day. For a kid with minimal tools in his garage, I didnt do too bad.

Sorry to the OP this has drifted way off thread, but yes, a minimal hand lapping WILL help, and not hurt.
I stand by the recommendation. I have no axe to grind, its a simple process requiring simple tools and common sense to accomplish. Its not blueprinting, its just fitting parts. If its above anyone who doesnt want to mess with it, thats fine too. Its your gun.
If you do it, and your gun will group sub MOA like mine will, I guess no one tore it up too bad!

Russellc
 
This isnt actual "receiver truing" its just carefully removing enough "roughness" to give a slightly better seat.

This gave me a thought: If we stick with the "truing" verbiage, then I kinda think of it this way: A factory fresh forging is a bold faced lie. Lapping with the spindle is a little white lie. Facing on a lathe is the truth.

That was a very general statement, not directed at you or others who actually know what's going on inside a firearm, and understand what can and can't be accomplished with a given tool.

No paint traded my way, I didn't assume it was aimed at me, just kicking out there that some of us who DO know the value of exacting machining quality still see value in using the lapping spindles. I also appreciate the call out on the relatively equivalent mechanical analogy - I tend to tell folks, if that guy at the gun counter talking about how easy it is to build an AR can't draw and describe how a mil-spec fire control group functions, then they don't have any business giving advice about building AR's. None of it is really complex, but none of it is taught in kindergarten either. If a guy hasn't learned how they work well enough to really KNOW how they work, then they shouldn't be "teaching" it either.

But such is the world we live in. Nobody pulls out a cook book for a recipe anymore, they go on pintrest. And of course, a million batches of REALLY SCHITTY chocolate chip cookies have been ruined because some slackjaw posted a terrible recipe online and some other slackjaw clicked on it and followed it...

If you've spent any time on Arfcom, M4carbine.net, etc., you'll see countless examples of people encouraging others to engage in these practices, including guys who just built their first or second AR suddenly pontificating about how to do such things, proclaiming benefits that are egregious exaggerations at best.

Which is a very fitting point to be made in this thread. As I said in my first post - the list of tools a guy NEEDS to assemble an AR is very different than the list of tools a guy should use to BUILD an AR. I can slap an AR together in about an hour, from parts, stripped upper and lower, with a couple old towels and rags, a set of channel-lock pliers, and a couple pin punches. No expectation it will run or feed properly, or that it won't chew up brass like a garbage disposal - but hey, maybe a guy gets lucky. Otherwise, to be sure feeding and function are exactly what they should be, I tend to touch a lot more tools, and spend a lot more time tuning the rifle during a build and get somewhere around 10hrs into an AR before it first goes bang, rather than simply assembling the parts and praying for the best.

A guy CAN assemble an AR with a shop rags in a bench vice and a pair of vice grips, but guys who make money building AR's don't build them that way, and guys winning matches don't run AR's built that way.
 
Oh well, despite chest thumping and self aggrandizement, this lapping of an ARs receiver is a simple task for anyone with common sense who is somewhat mechanically inclined. Its benefits are clear to me. It is a simple task, hardly more than taking burrs off other machined pieces. It simply allows a better fit.

Russellc

Watch your tone. I didn't throw insults at you, and there's no "chest thumping" or "self aggrandizement" in advising people that they can easily do more harm than good trying to accomplish by hand what should be done in precision machines by a competent operator.

When you've spent some time welding and re-drilling gas ports or taper pin holes that people attempted in a drill press, when you've had to fit new barrels to 1911s or other guns because a guy decided to attack his feed ramp with a Dremel, when you've made new custom screws and enlarged and countersunk scope mount screw holes to deal with significant disparity in distance or alignment between the mount and the holes Jimmy Jones drilled, when you've cut, recrowned and threaded barrels that a DIYer tried with a die and mangled suppressor baffles, when you've had to take .010"+ uneven arcs out of pieces alleged to have been "filed perfectly flat", you'll understand why I hold the opinions I do on what should or shouldn't be attempted by the kitchen counter & basement/garage hobby bench gunsmith.

No, working on guns isn't rocket surgery. But there are plenty of things that shouldn't be done if you don't have the equipment and experience to hold tolerances and remove material in the proper quantities from the right places, some of which have serious safety implications; the aforementioned home-throated pistol barrels, for example, have been known to result in hand and face injuries when the unsupported case heads failed. The stakes are generally a lot higher with metal removing tools touching guns than using a stone or some wet or dry to get the chewed up track in a 2 light slider moving smoothly again.
 
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My tone is fine, you are throwing insults as to my findings "egregious exaggerations"...so perhaps your tone needs adjusted. Your last post further typifies my description of your behavior.

Again, this is a simple step which many, myself included think useful. If you dont thats fine. There is no super nohow needed to perform this simple task. Have a nice day.

Again apologies to the OP...

Russellc
 
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My tone is fine, you are throwing insults as to my findings. Congrats you are the first to my ignore list.

I never said that you didn't see an improvement, but on that note, unless you provide details that you haven't yet, such as a specific positive change in group size or POI shift attributable to the modifications you did with variables reasonably controlled for, we can't appropriately call your findings anything more than conjecture.

Ignore me if you like. These posts are meant to be helpful to everyone, not alter the opinions of a stubborn individual.
 
Yes I did. Less shift during barrel heat up...have a nice day. Plus, I also dont like roughness of newly made parts, and this helps that, no real skill required, just time

Russellc
 
I am certain you are competent at what you do, I have no reason to think you havent made the repairs to mangled gun parts you claim.

But for crying out loud, all I am talking about is the slight lapping of the receiver, nothing more.

Russellc
 
Yes I did. Less shift during barrel heat up...

Russellc

You certainly have not.

Improvements in mechanical accuracy are not subjective; we're dealing with something quantifiable here. "I think it tightens accuracy overall, and am sure it helps with guns that begin to lose accuracy early in the warmup" is speculation with a heaping helping of vagary. If you wish your claims to have credence, document the before and after average group size and POI shift with the same ammunition & shooting conditions, and enough rounds fired to demonstrate consistent differences.

As for debating such things, take a lesson from Varminterror. He and I are able to have differing opinions without hostility, as it should be on THR. You also need to read more carefully, take things in the proper context. Why don't you revisit post #27 and think about whether or not the comment you are indignant about was intended for or applies to you (which you clearly had to go back looking for something you could interpret as offensive and edit your post to include it).

For everyone else, I do apologize for the drift as well, but I also believe there are useful takeaways. I've said all that needs to be, consider the discussion on receiver lapping in this thread finished on my end!
 
Goodness... reading the tools list and processes that some members have provided would scare most people away from ever trying to build an AR-15. The tools I used to build my first AR-15 (upper and lower) probably cost me less than $100 total (minus the bench vice and other very ordinary tools found in any shop), and fit in a small tackle box sized tool box.

Admittedly, some people really like to go hog-wild on the customization side of things, and there's nothing wrong with that. Realistically, most AR-15 work is a simple matter of parts assembly, not true gunsmithing. My hat is off to those who are qualified to do real gunsmithing work, and some of those folks have commented in this thread. But, I've built some very accurate and reliable AR-15 rifles using some very basic tools.

The speciality stuff I can think of off of the top of my head includes:

1) A couple of cheap vice blocks (bought online from a company called "Squirrel Daddy").

2) An armorer's wrench.

3) Roll pin starters and roll pin punches.

4) A small piece of cheap wood to support the "ears" on the trigger guard so they don't get damaged when hammering that pin into place.

Otherwise, most of the other tools are found in any home shop: hammers, a screw driver with assorted bits, a bench vice, etc.

I could be forgetting something, and I'll walk down to my shop later to look. While I sincerely don't want to downplay the craftsmanship and skills of others in this thread, I don't want to see anyone dissuaded from building an AR-15 because it sounds too complicated. I waited to build one for nearly 20 years after I bought my first one... I was convinced it was too complex to do at home. It's easier than most of the repairs I've done on my vehicles, and far more satisfying. Building an AR-15 is a satisfying accomplishment for most owners of these rifles, and it gives you a far better understanding of how everything works.
 
Amen. I have built all of mine, they are accurate, dont mangle brass, work perfectly. My 300 BO gave a little trouble in the beginning, just a leaky gas block.

Very, very simple procedure actually, no one should think it is too difficult. It isnt.

Lapp your receiver, it helps despite what others say. If you dont want to, dont. I built several before I even became aware of the process. It helped the first one just like I said it did, enough so I disassembled my others and performed the process on them.

Having the right tools makes the whole process much easier, and results in a higher probability of not scratching your receivers.

You can actually buy one so cheap, it is likely more expensive to build, but there is an education to be had as well. Plus, you get to use whatever parts you want, and you will have a much better understanding of how your gun works.

No need to be afraid, it is a very simple gun, very simple to build and maintain.

Russellc
 
Goodness... reading the tools list and processes that some members have provided would scare most people away from ever trying to build an AR-15. The tools I used to build my first AR-15 (upper and lower) probably cost me less than $100 total (minus the bench vice and other very ordinary tools found in any shop), and fit in a small tackle box sized tool box.

The AR specific tools on my list above were $95 total.

I keep spares and have been through a few sets of tools over ~20yrs building AR's, but nothing about the AR specific tools in my list is expensive, and the vast majority of those tools are "ordinary tools found in any shop." What I'm currently using:

  • Promag vise block set, currently $38 on Midwayusa, bought mine for $30 on sale

  • PRI barrel nut wrench, currently $25 at midway, bought mine for $19.99 on sale

  • Forgot the brand castle nut wrench, but it was $9 on Midway on sale when I bought it.

  • Brownells receiver lapping spindle $39 list, got my last 2 of them on sale for $27

  • Forgot the brand on my taper pin reamer too, it's at least 15yrs old, bought 3 of them at the time for $9 each. Nobody installs A2 front sights on their own rifles any more, so this one really isn't necessary or even useful.

I paid $9 at Walmart for a cheap Stanley plastic tool box about 6" x 6" x 12" to store these AR specific tools.

Again - Everything else on my list are "ordinary tools found in any shop."

Now - I will readily recognize the age of the "home shop" is over, so the average 20-30 something millennial building their first AR likely doesn't have a crow's foot set, torque wrench, roll pin punches, or even a bench vise... but as has been discussed, most guys who don't own a reasonable set of tools shouldn't really be building their own AR, since they likely lack the mechanical aptitude and experience to accomplish the task.

I have had a lot of interns and new grad engineers work under me over the years, I have a saying for many of these kids which is probably apt here as well: about some of these kids I would say, "he/she has all of the tools in her toolbox to be a great engineer, but none of them are greasy yet." It's one thing if a guy's tools look new and unused, it's another if they don't even own the tools.
 
You can put together an AR with a minimum amount of tools (and take one apart) if you are skilled in using those tools. Apprentices who were British and German in gunsmithing, had to be able to demonstrate a lot of feats using simple handtools to create an exquisite firearm for them to proceed to master.

Specialized tools as mentioned enable you to do the work in a shorter time frame, less chance for a mistake, better accuracy perhaps, and saving aggravation from pins mushrooming, springs and small parts flying to who knows where, your staking flat tip screwdriver slipping and marring the bolt carrier, your upper receiver cracked from too much torque, etc. There is and there will be different definitions by people of what is important and what is merely desirable.

As some of the thread demonstrates, skilled and experienced people can and will disagree about issues--the value of the THR compared with other forums is that the moderators make sure that those disagreements do not degenerate into personal insults and fighting. That is what I value.
 
I have always wondered if the more expensive name AR uppers are truer from the factory than others. I don't have the means to chuck them up though.

The good news is people put together ARs from parts all the time and they work. I am sure there are bad parts out there, and problems happen, but it works out right a lot, with minimum tools for the job. I have "built" two from scratch and they work well and are fairly accurate. All I did was be careful to get the parts together right.

The "lapping" of uppers have always made me curious. I am with Mach on the fact that it seems counter intuitive to do this by hand, but the point that it is better than nothing but not as good as a lathe may very well have merit.

I don't know. I am curious though.

Interesting discussion, and I would like to see it continue in a polite way.

Posters have given the OP a very good idea of what he needs. :)
 
I have always wondered if the more expensive name AR uppers are truer from the factory than others. I don't have the means to chuck them up though.

The good news is people put together ARs from parts all the time and they work. I am sure there are bad parts out there, and problems happen, but it works out right a lot, with minimum tools for the job. I have "built" two from scratch and they work well and are fairly accurate. All I did was be careful to get the parts together right.

The "lapping" of uppers have always made me curious. I am with Mach on the fact that it seems counter intuitive to do this by hand, but the point that it is better than nothing but not as good as a lathe may very well have merit.

I don't know. I am curious though.

Interesting discussion, and I would like to see it continue in a polite way.

Posters have given the OP a very good idea of what he needs. :)

I think it is hard to tell by brand with so much OEM parts out there. There might be seven different brands produced in the same precise machine by the same operator.
A few that we know of mill their own parts (and perhaps for others) they seem to be pretty consistent from batch to batch in terms of receivers, mounts or whatever they make
with their CNC equipment and alloy treatment and/or finishing.

I found Mega, SI-defense, seekings and a few others to make good receivers and matched billets for perhaps a tad tighter AR.
AR15 performance, oak, noveske, lilja, colt, armalite, Lothar walter, krieger make amazing bolts and barrels. I used BAT extensions for the 308 based builds.

But there are many others like RRA, DPMS, Colt, Addax and a few others cut who knows where that worked as expected some a bit tighter and some looser yet acceptable.
I try them first and do the lapping later if I see that necessary. Never put one on a lathe because by the time I am indexing whatever I think I am going to gain is not going
to be measurable because in the end is not just the receiver that has to be true. The bore has to be true, Broaching the barrel nut has to be true,The lugs and also bolt
have to be true, the chambering job has to be well done. There are so many variables that we just trust the manufacturers to work within the tolerances (some best than others)
and do some basic verification's and put it together.

I think the brands might give you some indication but in reality do not matter that much as they are the shell for that AR as soon as they are functional and within specs.
I think the internals are a lot more important like a quality barrel and bolt/bcg that is the beating heart of the direct impingement system. On average we are blessed
with great options that only meet but exceed the quality and functional requirements of mil spec.
We see the occasional mishap and garbage parts possibly with the cheaper possible deal but luckily do not happen that often.

Look at the Les Baers ARs. They do not use any fancy receivers or handguards yet they produce some of the most accurate ARs out of the box. They are expensive but
they can shoot. It is not the shell that makes that possible. They of course cut their barrels and use the amazign geissele 2 stage trigger.

I think most people today will agree that following some basic directives, finding tight fits, truing what can be trued, and perhaps selecting some better quality internals is
going to contribute to reliability and accuracy. When I build a precision AR I order the barrel with a matched bolt and head-saced with the brass I am shooting, this
if I don't chamber it myself. This is the same principal used for a precision bolt action build.

IMO most people would agree that something as simple as a floating hand-guard is going to help a lot with the accuracy potential of the AR. You have them in all sort
of shapes, finishes and budgets. At some point the classic ones will die I think.

Something that I don't hear a lot is about monolithic uppers. Some people think that these are bought for convenience or to introduce a proprietary quick change barrel
but there is something else behind. If you are a large guy and use an AR in an aggressive tactical match or just hunting somewhere where you have to go prone and
downhill. Lets say something as simple as a 15% angle pointing down a valley to score in a steel target.. and if you are a large guy like me you might find youself that
even with a nice floating rail your poi goes up. Well, this is caused by one of the weakest points in the AR design that is the barrel nut thread / receiver junction that is
the same no matter what receiver. You see, the floating hand-guard prevents the typical disturbance from touching the barrel but the hand-guard is still attached to
the same thread as the barrel nut holding both the barrel and the hand-guard in place. If you put enough downward pressure (large guy + prone + shooting downhill )
then the down force will increase and the actual receiver will flex. It is not that strong no matter what brand because the section and threads have to be the same.

So this is one of those areas where one might consider a monolithic upper where the anchoring of the hand-guard is separated from the barrel nut or it might be a single
piece all together. But if one doesn't want to expend extra and wants to increase the rigidity of the receiver union one could take a shallow raiser and using a
handguard with a top rail clamp both together. This should never be done by the optics mount or rings. Those should never touch the handguard rails or this piece.

Most people are not going to worry about this to shoot from a bench of the average hunt or 3 gun drill but it is something that can show up in those situations.

I think that everything really has an impact to one degree or another and one just needs to take some time to see if improvements are needed and then tackle those
areas where some improvement can be made. I don't think there is one single recipe for everyone or everything but taking the time to get to know the rifle, the round and
perhaps taking some professional training that is often overlooked, the experience with any AR is going to be a nice one.

In reality the AR is a very well designed platform and inherently accurate and that is why so many of them and with minimum care and consideration shoot
pretty well. But still there are a few considerations and tips that one can follow to improve if needed.

Assembling the AR yourself from scratch, talking to folks and studying are very good steps towards improving on everything.
 
Some of the optional tools like barrel dimpling jigs and gaa tube allignment jigs are not required but really name things less aggravating and more satisfying.
 
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