What was/is the most energetic infantryman's caliber?

[Corn-Picker]

I'm curious, what was the highest energy shoulder fired rifle caliber that ever saw widespread use? Obviously there are shoulder fired 338 Lapua and 50 BMG rifles used by specialists, but I'm limiting it to those calibers used by the average conscripts.

Based on my Wikipedia research it looks the 8mm Mauser is tops as loaded with military ammo, but the 30-06 may out-do it with modern handloads. Was anything more energetic than these two ever utilized by the general soldier?

 

[tark]

I come to the same conclusion, based on Cartridges of the World. The 7.92X57 with its 154 gr bullet at 2880 FPS. That's 2835 FPE. It is curious to see how much hotter some of the Norma loads are over the milspec loads for various calibers.

The 8X58R Danish Krag would take the prize, if we were going by Norma's loadings. It is listed at a 198gr bullet at 2740 FPS> for 3300 FPE.!!

 

[Sunray]

.577-450 and its predecessor the .577 Snider along with all those big BP cartridges were well known to pound a troopie's shoulder. The .577-450 used 85 grains of black powder with a 480-grain bullet at 1,350 ft/s.
The 7.92X57(aka 8mm Mauser) is about the same as a .30-06, .308 and a 405 grain .45-70. With these the rifle they come out of matters. Even a 750 grain .50 BMG has about the same recoil velocity. None of 'em compare with the big bruisers of the 19th Century. http://www.chuckhawks.com/subscribers/tables_charts_lists_page/recoil_table_exp.htm

 

[lysanderxiii]

I come to the same conclusion, based on Cartridges of the World. The 7.92X57 with its 154 gr bullet at 2880 FPS. That's 2835 FPE. It is curious to see how much hotter some of the Norma loads are over the milspec loads for various calibers.

The 8X58R Danish Krag would take the prize, if we were going by Norma's loadings. It is listed at a 198gr bullet at 2740 FPS> for 3300 FPE.!!

Military loading for the Danish Krag were never that high....

The military loads were more along the lines of the German WW2 7.9 x 57 sS, around 2785 lb-ft.

For military ammunition, one of the light weight 8mm bullets at the highest Vm.

If you are going by what you can push the cartridge to with current loadings, the .30-06, you can push that up to nearly 3800 lb-ft, with some modern loadings.

 

[briansmithwins]

Energy defined as 1/2mass*velocity^2?

Light fast bullets get more energy at the muzzle but are likely to lose more energy at range.

BSW

 

[DeepSouth]

The 45-70 comes to my mind immediately, but I believe the originally converted Springfield trapdoors were chambered in its predecessor, the 50-70.

Don't know what the velocity was, but it had to pack a punch.

 

[R.W.Dale]

As mentioned above the late 7.92x57 German 154 grain load tops the energy list for standard issue rifles

 

[Piper106]

Don't know if this counts as 'standard issue'...
The Swedish army had some Mauser 98k rifles rechambered for their machine gun cartridge; the 8 x 63mm M/32 patrone, 218 grain bullet @ 2500 fps = 3003 fps (14.1 grams @ 760 mps = 4072 joules). Issued to members of the machine gun squads to simplify ammo supply. Supposedly the rifles were sold after WW2 to Israel.

 

[justin22885]

gotta love 7.92x57mm and all its awesomeness

 

[crazysccrmd]

How about a Mauser Tankgewehr? A 13.2x92 case, 795gr projectile at 2580fps, 11752 ft/lbs with no muzzle brake or recoil pad.

 

[Nature Boy]

90mm recoiless rifle

 

[justin22885]

How about a Mauser Tankgewehr? A 13.2x92 case, 795gr projectile at 2580fps, 11752 ft/lbs with no muzzle brake or recoil pad.

sounds concealable

 

[tark]

LysanderXIII, I would like to see the 30-06 loading that produces 3800Ft-lbs of energy. No factory load does, that I know of. And I have never seen any loading manuel that lists anything approaching that kind of power. Educate me, I have been wrong in the past and probably will be again. You taught me a lot about twist rates in a 30 cal bore in that thread! (Besides, I WANT that load!)

I know the Danish military load was rather soft, and I really wonder how Norma can soup it up far enough to get those ballistics without blowing up the Krag rifles they were fired in!

I assumed the OP was after the hottest military cartridge in its original military loading, and I did pick the 7.92X57, which seems to be the champion. By bringing the Norma loadings into the picture I only wanted to point out that IF any modern factory loading of these same rounds was allowed to count, the 8X58 would apparently take the prize.

 

[maxxhavoc]

M203 grenade launcher has a rifled barrel, widely issued, lots of energy

 

[crazysccrmd]

M203 grenade launcher has a rifled barrel, widely issued, lots of energy

Explosive energy, but the kinetic energy of the round is very low. It's only launched at 250fps, 480ft/lbs.

 

[lysanderxiii]

LysanderXIII, I would like to see the 30-06 loading that produces 3800Ft-lbs of energy.

Mis-typed, should read "...nearly 3400 lb-ft..."

RBCD Performance Plus 112gr Total Fragmenting Soft Point Ammo, they claimed 3375 lb-ft...

If we are going with AT guns, I'm gonna' say the Soviet 14.5mm PTRS-41 with 24,368 lb-ft

 

[lysanderxiii]

I know the Danish military load was rather soft, and I really wonder how Norma can soup it up far enough to get those ballistics without blowing up the Krag rifles they were fired in!

I think the Danes downloaded to keep from blowing up their earlier Rolling Blocks, even though the Danish Krag was a pretty stout weapon and could probably handle a bit more. Now you can have Mauser or similar stronger action to handle 60,000 psi.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Double Tap's 200g Nosler accubond loading is has the highest energy according to my "ballistic" database @ 3130 ft lbs

 

[jmr40]

There are handloads available in 30-06 shooting 200-220 gr bullets that will exceed 3300 ft lbs from standard length barrels. Many of the handloads shooting 215-230 gr bullets from longer 26-28" barrels should easily reach 3400 ft lbs. at the muzzle. You can easily have over 1500 fps and 1200 ft lbs at 1000 yards with some of the better bullets and loads.

The heaviest rifles that I'm aware of are some of the sporting rifles in elephant calibers brought into service during WW-1 to defeat light armor. The 50 BMG was developed for this purpose, but didn't see service during WW-1.

The 45-70 comes to my mind immediately,

The 45-70 was one of the shortest lived military rounds and was dropped because it was simply way too weak to do the job. Even in its day it was considered borderline for whitetails and despite the myth was never used as a buffalo gun. Modern loads move the 45-70 into a legitimate large game round, but traditional loads are about equal to 45 caliber muzzle loader loads. The legal minimum for deer in most places for muzzle loaders.

 

[tark]

Got ya, LysanderXIII. I thought that was what it was. Damn....I really wanted that load!

Hey! Guys! The OP kind of stated he was interested in standard infantry rifle calibers and not anti tank rifles and grenade launchers. He ruled out the 338 Lapua and 50 BMG right off the bat. I think he was interested in the maximum Ft-Lbs of energy number as the test of the winner. I know those old black powder rounds hit like a sledge hammer, but their FPE numbers were rarely above 1500 or so.

 

[tark]

JMR40 I don't know where you got your info about the 45-70 being too weak for buffalo hunting, or how you know it wasn't used for that purpose, but I know this:

Years ago at the shot show, I got to yak with Clint Smith one on one for twenty minutes. Clint loves to hunt buffalo with a 45-70 sharps and he told me that a 500 gr bullet , pushed be 65 grains of black powder (all he could get in a modern case) will shoot completely through a buffalo bull at any range closer than 100 yards or so. Weak? I don't think so. As for its effectiveness, it was as good as any other country's black powder round.

The Army didn't dump it because it didn't do the job, they dumped it because something far better was invented; Smokeless powder and small bore jacketed bullets at much higher velocities.

 

[lysanderxiii]

There are handloads available in 30-06 shooting 200-220 gr bullets that will exceed 3300 ft lbs from standard length barrels. Many of the handloads shooting 215-230 gr bullets from longer 26-28" barrels should easily reach 3400 ft lbs. at the muzzle. You can easily have over 1500 fps and 1200 ft lbs at 1000 yards with some of the better bullets and loads.

The heaviest rifles that I'm aware of are some of the sporting rifles in elephant calibers brought into service during WW-1 to defeat light armor. The 50 BMG was developed for this purpose, but didn't see service during WW-1.



The 45-70 was one of the shortest lived military rounds and was dropped because it was simply way too weak to do the job. Even in its day it was considered borderline for whitetails and despite the myth was never used as a buffalo gun. Modern loads move the 45-70 into a legitimate large game round, but traditional loads are about equal to 45 caliber muzzle loader loads. The legal minimum for deer in most places for muzzle loaders.

US Military primary small arms cartridges:

.50-70-450 - 1866-1873 (7 years)
.45-70-405 - 1873-1879 (6 years)
.45-70-500 - 1879-1892 (13 years)
6mm Navy - 1895-1899 (4 years)
.30-40 Krag - 1892-1903 (11 years)
.30, M1903 - 1903-1906 (3 years)
.30, M1906 - 1906-1926 (although stock of WW1 ammo lasted until 1935-36) (30 years)
.30, M1 - 1926-1938 (actually in use for less than 2 years)
.30, M2 - 1938-1954 (although there was nothing to shoot it until around 1960) (appx 20 years)
7.62mm M59/M80 - 1954-present (appx 50 years)
5.56mm, M193 - 1963-mid 1980s (appx 22 years)
5.56mm, M855/M855A1 - mid 1980s to present (appx 30 years)

.45-70-500 (the "normal" load) is 6th out of 12 in longevity....

.45-70-405 still lasted longer than 3 others, not bad considering it was only the second metallic cartridge adopted.

 

[tuj]

This might not have fallen to every infantryman to carry, but the Russian PTRS-41 had a nasty habit of breaking shoulders. 14.5mmx144mm, 3,300fps, 944gr bullet.

 

[Gtscotty]

Double Tap's 200g Nosler accubond loading is has the highest energy according to my "ballistic" database @ 3130 ft lbs

Some of the other Double Tap loads, and all of the Hornady Superformance loads have higher muzzle KE than the 200gr load. The 165gr Superformance puts out 3209 ft lbs.

 

[Art Eatman]

Lets stay with government-issued general-use cartridges used by Infantry, which seems to be the OP's idea.

Odds are that the "Big Three" would be the WW II Mauser, the .30-'06 and the .308. They're all just under 3,000 ft/sec MV and 3,000 ft-lb ME. (IMO, 2,800 is close enough.)