What weapon would have changed the past?

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Redlg155

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This thread was influenced by a poster I saw that had an indian mounted on a pony holding a compound bow stating "what if"

What significant firearms development, if invented 200 years earlier, circa 1811 , would have changed the future?

I'd vote the 1911...and if for some crazy reason I could bend time I'd definitely have one on my hip.

And for what it's worth, I do think things would have been different if the indians would have had a Matthews with carbon fiber arrows!
 
The English longbow, in the hands of the American Indians, could have changed the course of early colonial history. (It was low-tech enough to have been replicated by the Indians -- unlike firearms -- yet it was far and away better than the bows the Indians actually had. It would have put the Indians almost on a par with the matchlock-wielding colonists.) This is exactly why, when some idiot in London dispatched a shipment of longbows to the Jamestown colonists, they became so alarmed that they intercepted the ship and had the longbows offloaded in Bermuda.
 
I'd say the 1911 would be far far down the list.
Wars are not won, lost, or even fought with handguns, no matter how good they are.

Much more significant would be the invention of metalic cartridge cases, centerfire primers, repeating firearms, smokeless powder, jacketed bullets, spitzer bullets, optical sights, etc.

Just about any of those things would most certainly have been a game changer in 1811.

rc
 
the long bow is a good answer. but wouldnt that of basically allowed the eastern indians to become mounted on the colonists horses about 75 years sooner than they did? the longbow would of been useless on horseback and they would of reverted to the shorter bows that they had anyway?
 
the long bow is a good answer. but wouldnt that of basically allowed the eastern indians to become mounted on the colonists horses about 75 years sooner than they did? the longbow would of been useless on horseback and they would of reverted to the shorter bows that they had anyway?

My archery history is lacking, but IIRC the Huns used a recurve bow while mounted that was pretty darned efficient. If the Native Americans had that rather than their own bows that could have yielded the same type of improvements from horseback.

Realistically though, that particular process wasn't strictly a military one, and while its certainly superior in certain circumstances, there was a reason why the English had already mostly abandoned their own bows in favor of those matchlock rifles.
 
Threads like this remind me of an old segment on Saturday Night Live when Kirk Douglas was guest host and Jane Curtin did a segment on "What if Spartacus had a Piper Cub".
 
mgmorden wrote:

My archery history is lacking, but IIRC the Huns used a recurve bow while mounted that was pretty darned efficient. If the Native Americans had that rather than their own bows that could have yielded the same type of improvements from horseback.

Good point about the Huns, but the eastern woodlands Indians in the early 1600's were unmounted. The early English settlers didn't have to confront mounted Indians -- the famous Indian ponies derived from horses that escaped or were stolen from Spanish herds in Mexico and the Southwest, and that's why they later became the hallmark of the Plains Indians. Once a toehold was established by the English on the east coast, the die was cast for the Indians. Just about the last realistic chance the Indians had to throw the English back into the sea was the Virginia Indian uprising of 1622. After that, it was all over for them, although they didn't realize it yet.

Realistically though, that particular process wasn't strictly a military one, and while its certainly superior in certain circumstances, there was a reason why the English had already mostly abandoned their own bows in favor of those matchlock rifles.

In Europe, the prevailing military tactics of the day (the early 1600's) revolved around "pike and shot" armies, in which the "shot" (the musketeers) played a definitely supporting role. Battles were decided by "push of pike," and the muskets were there mainly to prevent cavalry from wreaking havoc with the tightly-packed pike blocks. In fact, the guys that would dirty themselves with black powder were from a lower social class, and were looked down upon by the esteemed pikemen. (Of course the cavalry had the highest status of all.) As late as the 1630's, the fad among the well-to-do militia units of London was the "double-armed man," who was armed with the pike in combination with the traditional longbow. No lowly firearms for them!

(The pike wasn't really supplanted until the era of the flintlock and the rise of the bayonet, in the late 1600's.)

A similar thing was happening in Japan at around the same time. Firearms had been introduced to Japan by Portugese traders in the 1500's, and they had been copied by the industrious Japanese. But anybody, even a lowly peasant, could become a matchlock musketeer, and this reduced the premium placed on the training of the exalted samurai. Ieyasu Tokugawa made use of peasant soldiers armed with firearms to consolidate his power under the shogunate, but after his death the samurai class reasserted itself, and the peasants were disarmed and people were prevented from having firearms on pain of death. That was the situation that Commodore Perry found when he opened Japan to the West in 1854.
 
Towards the end of WWII the Germans built the first "assault weapon" with the Stermgewehr. The gun was ahead of it's time and would have been the best infantry rifle out there. Unfortunately for the Germans, the gun was over-engineered and took time to build. As the war was ending the Germans didn't possess enough of them to make a difference.

A few years later a Russian tank driver tinkered with this gun and came away with the AK47. If you look at both guns you will see where the AK stole from the Sturmgewehre.
 
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My archery history is lacking, but IIRC the Huns used a recurve bow while mounted that was pretty darned efficient. If the Native Americans had that rather than their own bows that could have yielded the same type of improvements from horseback.

The main technological advantage the Huns had was the stirrup. That allowed them to use the bow more effectively.
 
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Mr Blue - The StG44 was not over-engineered (it was made for mass production) and it was easy to produce. Hundreds of thousands were made and used on all German fronts from 1943 on. The issue of whether Kalashnikov copied it is controversial, as is the fact of him "inventing" the AK at all (others that were there say he claimed credit and fit the mold that Soviet industry wanted to promote of the "worker's rifle" designed by the common Soviet man).

But anyhoo...just saying "an M1 Abrams in 1776" seems crazy. They were so many levels away from that. However, self contained cartridges (primer, case, powder, bullet) and smokeless powder seem possible in the 1700's, and rifling was alread known. Bolt action rifles against flintlocks...no chance.
 
Thankfully things played out exactly the way they did. Change the outcome of certain pivotal moments or maybe even one pivotal moment and the world would look a whole lot differently and who knows if that would be for the better or worse for freedom and mankind in general. What if Hitler had agreed to use the ME 262 as a fighter like it was intended instead of the bomber he wanted?
 
As several others have stated, any self contained cartridge. That of rifling the barrels of guns. Rate of fire and accuracy would have had huge affects on the effectiveness of guns. Look back to colonial times when you had people charging forts and attacking and only 1 or 2 people are killed all night. Of course these are all the result to MFG processes and technologies due to the ability to machine and process metal.


Those and flamethrowers cause there awsome.
 
I have always wondered how The Alamo would have turned out if the guys inside had a few modern weapons? How many would they have needed to change the outcome of that battle?
 
not a firearm but i thinking penicillin may have changed the world in crazy ways had it come far earlier....it is the "magic bullet"!
 
Hmm... no one's mentioned two of the better pieces of "alternative history" fiction - "Guns of the South" by Harry Turtledove, and "1632" by Eric Flint.
The former details a scenario in which time travelers hand out AK-47s to General Lee and his men with interesting effects on the course of the American Civil War.
The latter is about a rift in time that takes a small West Virginia town back to Europe during the Thirty Years' War. Their modern weapons and ideas also have interesting effects on the history and social structure of the region.
 
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