What Will Supercede the ROA?

[sundance44s]

I`m sure hopeing the USFA price will be around 600 bucks for the 1858 Remmie ....and 1000 bucks for the 1875 Remmie ...In any case , my collection of the Eyetilian copys will be for sale , just as soon as I can get my hot little hands on an American made Remmie . I won`t need but one of each .. Hurry Up USFA ! I want one like me ..Born in the USA !

 

[ArmedBear]

I`m sure hopeing the USFA price will be around 600 bucks for the 1858 Remmie

The accurized Pietta costs more than that. But we can hope.

 

[Old Fuff]

Guys...

Do you really think that USFA can produce a Remington New Army, with the kind of materials, workmanship and finish you want, and do so paying U.S. labor rates and overhead, and still retail it for $600.?

 

[ArmedBear]

No. I sure don't.

I rather expect that $600 will be the extra charge, on top of the gun's price, if you want a color-casehardened hammer.

 

[Old Fuff]

So this begs a question...

Will they give up some quality in materials and workmanship to meet a lower price point, or go all-out and charge whatever is necessary?

Looking at the company's history I expect the latter, but if the revolver is made this way it can't cost a whole lot less then a Single Action Army with the same degree of materials, workmanship and finish.

There is that old saying..., you get what you pay for.

 

[ArmedBear]

There is that old saying..., you get what you pay for.

To a degree...

I really don't think that an upgrade to smooth wood grips is worth $250 (fancy walnut $300, checkered add $200), a CCH finish on the hammer is worth $115, nor a "historic letter" $50. Consecutive serial numbers on one order for a pair of guns that cost $1245 each + options that should be included, $100 extra per gun?

Like Porsche, USFA makes a top-notch product, but really gets you when you want any "options."

 

[Old Fuff]

I see your point...

I was addressing the relative cost of producing a top-quality-in-all-respects Remington New Army replica, in the United States. The only similar revolver in present production I could compare it to would be a Single Action Army.

I presume that the wood stocks you mentioned are of the individually fitted one-piece kind. If so I see U.S. labor costs coming into play.

To a degree we see the same situation as those folks that want a Colt Government Model .45 pistol, that's made the way it was during the Great Depression, but selling for $600 to $800. In today's economy it can't be done - at least in the United States.

 

[sundance44s]

They do make a Colt Peacemaker for that 600 dollar price range ..I think it`s called a USFA Rodeo or something , so we can hope . If not I can live without the 1875 Remmie ..The 1858 with conversion cylinder will do . Something else I haven`t heard anything on yet ..who will be makeing the conversion cylinders to fit ..or will one of these I have fit . We`ll see.

 

[ArmedBear]

Fuff-

I bought a Uberti Cattleman Millenium in .357 as a field/snake gun and desert plinker. Shoots great now that I put in some American springs. Solid gun, though beadblasted. For once, I wanted to get a gun I would take out in the rocks and dirt without remorse.

I paid $265 for the whole damn gun, brand new, including one-piece walnut grips that were fitted very nicely and I actually would feel remorseful about damaging. (Springs were an extra $20 or so.) The hammer is nicely CCH'ed. I guess Uberti finishes them all that way, and unlike USFA didn't see fit to set up a different production line for lower-end hammers, even for their budget utility gun.

It's certainly not a USFA, and the innards aren't polished or anything, but the quality is surprisingly good, and fit -- both metal and wood -- is flawless. Do Europeans really work THAT cheap?

 

[Old Fuff]

Do Europeans really work THAT cheap?

Apparently....

Actually I think there are other factors besides wages.

I am aware of the "functional but not pretty" lines of SAA clones. They are good buys for a utility gun, and an even better one if you plan to strip the finish to age it. They have everything you need, and nothing more.

But if I understand right, what USFA is planing in the way of a Remington reproduction is a deluxe gun, not a utility model. Also I think their $600 line of SAA's is about to take a jump - if it hasn't already.

 

[ArmedBear]

They have everything you need, and nothing more.

...except that mine came well-fitted one-piece walnut grips, and the whole thing cost as much as USFA wants for swapping out their standard hard rubber grips for one-piece walnut grips.

Granted, the finish on the USFA grips is higher-end. However, by USFA standards, I bought grips and a hammer, and got the rest of the gun for free.

I was not suggesting that USFA was going to make a utility 1858, only that their "upgrades" should be standard at their price point, and either way, the upgrades are overpriced.

Therefore, their deluxe 1858 is unlikely to be a penny below a grand, and it seems likely that they'd charge extra for finishing the hammer.

I'd pay for USFA quality, though I have yet to buy one of their guns, sorely tempted though I've been. I understand the value of that quality, and the cost of gunsmithing, as well. But some of their options pricing would make me feel like a real sucker.

 

[Old Fuff]

I don't disagree with your observations, including the ones concerning USFA. Perhaps they are like some car makers that make most of their profit selling options and accesories...

And I think that the "plain-Jane" revolvers represent excellent values, especially for someone who can do a little tune-up work themselves.

But the issues you are bringing up may help explain why others beside USFA aren't interested in bringing out a top-quality cap & ball revolver that would be manufactured in this country.

 

[ArmedBear]

And I think that the "plain-Jane" revolvers represent excellent values, especially for someone who can do a little tune-up work themselves.

I think USFA's "plain Janes" are a good value, too, actually. The USFA Cowboy is a straight-up "pay for quality" gun for a decent price, polished blue, too.

So maybe I shouldn't bitch. If someone wants a fine safe queen, let them charge him for it, and make their profit. Especially if that allows them to offer me a fine "shooter" for a better price.

WRT others making higher-end cap and ball guns, I think that the overwhelming number of them are shot casually, and a quality replica like a newer Uberti will last a long time that way. CAS may be changing that, a bit. For the first time since the 1870s, a lot of people are really beating on BP revolvers and expecting them to perform. That exposes weaknesses that nobody had ever noticed.

USFA might be blazing a trail here. Who knows?

Also of note: Uberti's 1858 frames are now forged. So clearly someone out there wants 'em made stronger, whether that's for conversions or competition, or both.

 

[Timthinker]

I am afraid I must agree with you gentlemen concerning the price of the USFA 1858 Remington. I believe it will cost considerably more than the ROA if judged by other USFA products. This is not to say that USFA does not make quality pieces, but they may price themselves out of my budget. I trust when the 1858 becomes available that one of our senior members will purchase one and present their opinions on it.

My gut feeling is that the "new" caplock Remington will produce tighter groupings than many of the other Italian repos. At least I certainly hope it does for the price. Again, if I could purchase one of these newer Remingtons for $200 more than the Ruger, I would jump at the opportunity. Unfortunately, I think this is very wishful thinking on my part.

During the discussions sofar, I neglected to bring up a point that I hope is untrue. I have heard unsubstantiated rumors that Ruger may reduce the number of ROAs produced and concentrate on other firearms. Do any of our members have any info on this situation? I hope that it is untrue since I wish to purchase a replacement Old Army for the one I foolishly sold. Thanks for your insight guys.


Timthinker

 

[Old Fuff]

Ruger run their various models in batches, and they try to anticipate how many will be needed before they plan to run the next batch. Obviously some model/cartridge combinations are run in greater numbers, because of their popularity and market demand. The Old Army is one with relatively light demand, so a production run may last longer then something else. Also most of the parts in the Old Army are unique to that particular revolver, where other models contain a number of common parts – which make production easier and more economical.

What this boils down to is that during or early after a run, most of the finishes, sights (fixed or adjustable) and barrel lengths will be available. Later you may not have such a wide selection until another batch comes along. Ultimately the number that will be made within a certain time period will depend on how the orders are coming in from their distributors.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Old Fuff is right about Ruger & their production scheduling. Marketing tries to predict what will sell and looks at the current inventory. They then draw up a production schedule and that's what is produced during the course of the year.

S&W uses the Japanese inventory system. What they sell today, they'll produce tomorrow.

 

[ArmedBear]

So what in God's name does MARLIN use to determine when to do a run?

A ouija board?

 

[Old Fuff]

They and some others use the "Old Fuff's flip a coin" system...

All I can say is that the bean-counters rule the companies now, and it often shows...

 

[ArmedBear]

They're not counting very well, when there are current-production guns that many of us want to buy, but aren't available (1894C, Gold Label, etc.). That's doubly true when these seem to be higher-profit guns than their similar cousins (336W, for example).

 

[rifle]

I thought I heard somewhere that Hartford Armory(distributed thru Taylors) was to make a cap&ball Remington. Was it in one of my dreams maybe? If people want top notch Remington cap&ballers why not try the Pietta "Shooters" model or the Pedersoli model. I've owned the Pietta "Remington Delux" for years since it was sold for $310. I won't sell it. I dig that progressive rifling. It's too good of a gun to part with. Dixie's was selling them for $300 that had some rust on them. I think those are $450 now last I inquired.
I guess no US companies have the nuts to attempt a Colt cap&baller anymore. I guess they are hard to build.
Persomally if USFA is planning to sell high end cap&ball Remies for the BIG money I'll shy away and tune up a Pietta or Uberti.

 

[English Bob]

The USAF guns look superb, part of the attraction is the antique finishes they do, way cooler than anny Itallian attempts. Being 100% US made they will not be cheap but the quality should out shine most Euro attempts.

Sadly we will probably not see them over here unless we go to the trouble of importing them personally. I'm just pleased to see a US manufactured 1858 being made finally.

Good on 'em!

 

[sundance44s]

I`m thinking the fact is the USFA Remington 1858 is still and will always be a cap & ball pistol to start with ..So like in Rugers ROA it`s lower in price than Rugers cartridge pistols . The Remington and the Ruger price still gets ya when ya add on the price of a conversion cylinder . So would a cap & baller be worth a 1,200 dollar price tag . I`m thinking the 1875 they make will be the one on the high end . Just my thoughts .