What Would YOU Do

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Werewolf

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NOTE: This didn't happen to me but it did happen a few months ago about 2 miles from where I live. In a follow up in this thread I'll tell y'all what happened in real life.

You have a concealed carry permit and live in a state that recognizes the doctrine of standing in another's shoes.

Situation:
1. You are sitting in a small neighborhood restaurant eating dinner. You are alone and your table has an unobstructed view of the cash register.
2. A young man enters the restaurant, pulls a gun on the cashier and says loud enough for everyone to hear that he will blow the cashier's brains out if they don't turn over all the money in the cash register and do it now.
3. The young man is very, very agitated. In your estimation the demeanor of the young man indicates there is a 50/50 chance he will shoot the cashier if they don't hurry up.
4. There is no one between you and the young man and the cashier would be out of the line of fire if you choose to intervene with your handgun.

What do you do? You only have a few seconds to make up your mind.

1. Mind your own business but surreptitiously pull your piece in case it is necessary to defend your self.
2. Pull your piece and tell the young man he's got a gun pointed at the back of his head and if he doesn't drop his weapon NOW! He's gonna die.
3. NO WARNING. JUST take the shot - there is almost no chance you'll miss - you're that good.
4. Hide under your table and wimper.
5. Do nothing.
6. OTHER???

What would you do. Explain your choice. Feel free to mention moral, legal
and political issues/consequences.
 
#1 - too much risk unless threat is directly focused on ME.
 
I'm not a cashier, but I have a brother who is. The one in the OP is likely someone's brother or sister as well; that's reason enough for me to do whatever is in my power to make sure they aren't killed in a holdup.
 
#2 or #3, Depending on being in the moment (words can only dscribe the scene so much). I don't know if i could live with myself if the cashier ended up being shot and i could have done something to protect him/her.
 
I think that if you were a good enough shot then you would have to do 3, if you did two there is a possibility that if you weren't right up on him he could turn and get some sort of shot off. I don't know the laws of each state but i'm sure you could justify the defense if the bg had a gun.
 
This is one of those classic situations where moving too fast is bad and waiting too long is bad. In the scenario you describe I'm thinking that I personally have no way out so I'd consider the threat to myself every bit as grave as the threat to the cashier.

Now of course the "mood" of the situation has a great deal of influence on what I'd do but my general thinking is along the lines of...

You need to create a distraction first such as throwing a plate or glass a long way from myself with the hopes of causing the badguy to turn away from both myself and the cashier. If successful then the instant the gunman isn't focused on me or the cashier I'd open up.

(of course even as I write this I'm sending silent prayer up of "GOD let this never happen to me") :eek:
 
If you truly believe the cashier is in eminent danger of being shot you must intervene. #2 would probably be the best choice to keep yourself out of trouble even though #3 is probably the best choice in this case. The only problem is, you will probably go to jail because some anti in the restaurant will testify against you that he said he would shoot if he didn't get the money. Since he was getting what he wanted some overzealous prosecutor will frame it that you were the BG and you are wrong.
 
Oh and forgot to mention one other thing. This is also one of those classic scenarios where you MUST remember that the perp may not be alone. Even if you take him out it's really important to keep alert in case he has backup present (just outside, in a car, or even in another part of the restaurant. That's why it's so important to avoid acting too fast if possible. Assess the situation first if you can.
 
#3. Maybe create a distraction, but that might startle the robber into pulling the trigger...
 
in your scenario, #3 all the way (at least where i live). While I hesitate to intervene in 3rd party situations normally, if an obviously innocent party (aka the cashier) is in mortal danger, and I feel I can end the situation without harm to any of the innocent parties, then I feel to not do so is wrong.

Mind you, real life is rarely this cut and dried.
 
When sitting in locales such as this try and sit so you can keep an eye on the routes of ingress and egress. If two people walk in together but you only see one of them at the register you will then know that another one is lurking.
Situational awareness is important. Tough to always do but can be a lifesaver. Tis always wise to keep the door to public places in view. This tends to give you a warning of potential danger.
 
State law in Oregon allows defense of another. Criteria is "imminent threat." Threatening someone with a firearm meets all the legal criteria for use of lethal force. If you "startle" someone in the middle of a holdup, there's a good chance their gun will go off. That's just "nerves" and "reflex."

If you really have a "clear shot" and "you're that good" you you take out the perp as soon as he draws his gun and gets aggressive. Law requires that you "use sufficient lethal force only to stop the attack." In my book that's "center of mass, double tap" -- then let the air clear and get a status report.

Clerks, bystanders get shot all the time in holdups. Perp is generally keyed up, excited, agitated, typically high on something. If he's waving a gun around and you have a "free shot" -- double tap, center of mass.

If you're going to be effective at CCW "defense" you need to develop the attitude that you either shoot to stop the attack, or you don't indicate in any manner that you're armed. No in between. Tactic is "total surprise and overwhelming force." You don't use the CCW as a "negotiation device."

-- No warnings, no distractions. Bang, bang . . . center of mass. And carry one that will stop the attack in two shots.
 
I must chime in......I agree with another post, I would hate myself if the cashier was shot and I could have done "something". I suppose on a moral I would freely face charges to save another, even a stranger. Isn't that kind of what the country is found upon. Protect those who cannot protect themselves. Something to that effect is in the constitution.


Besides, how many others have that perp robbed and will rob? A good shot to the chest and a "stray" to the head will make it the last robbery he will do. Its all kinda sad really.....
 
#1 With the addition that I would be surrepititiously drawing to get ready to defend myself OR an innocent 3rd party...like the cashier.

#3 The instant I feel someone is about to get shot.
 
If the gun is pointed at the cashier, isn't it possible that if you shoot the gunman, his gun could go off and shoot the cashier? Wouldn't this be a major liability, ie "the cashier wouldn't have got shot if the armed citizen didn't try to intervene?"

Is that something to think about too?
 
If the gun is pointed at the cashier, isn't it possible that if you shoot the gunman, his gun could go off and shoot the cashier? Wouldn't this be a major liability, ie "the cashier wouldn't have got shot if the armed citizen didn't try to intervene?"
Click to expand...
This is exactly what I was thinking as I was reading all of the previous replies. You shoot the perp, now his people are pissed at you and you're gonna pay, one way or another. He shoots the cashier, now his/her people are pissed at you and you're gonna pay, one way or another.

In scenarios such as this one, it always pays to keep in mind the wise old saying:

"No good deed goes unpunished."


:cool:
 
OK...

Here's what happened in the actual situation.

The cashier practically tripped over his own shoes and crapped hisself in his haste to give the robber the money. Took about 30 seconds to comply after the robber pulled the gun and pointed it at the cashier.

From reports I've heard from a guy that was there the robber's agitation must have been drug induced or it was his first robbery because he kinda just stood there for a bit (another 15 or so seconds) after getting the money with a confused what the heck do I do now look on his face. Then he left.

Whole incident took less than a minute, maybe a minute and a half. The cops took about 15 minutes to show up - guess they figured since the robber had already left there was no real hurry. To the best of my knowledge they still haven't caught the guy - probably never will - at least not for this robbery anyway.
 
really?

"3. NO WARNING. JUST take the shot - there is almost no chance you'll miss - you're that good."

thats a big statement to back but maybe not since you are gambling other folks lives.

what ever you do be aware you snd some others get to live with the choice and i can almost guarantee it'll be nothin like you imagine it to be
 
Even knowing the actual results I know I would have done #2 (warn and fire) or #3 (shoot without warning). It would determine on my sense of his attitude. I've intervened in situations before even when I was unarmed and just the boldness of action can be enough to get the aggressor to back down.

That is stupid, yes, and looking back I can't believe I acted that way. I got lucky. But, seeing someone in danger like that just trips something in me. I would not have let him further endanger the clerk and sure as heck not walk free out of the restaurant.

On the other hand I also know that when I carry a firearm I greatly restrict my initial impulses. After initial assessment though i am sure I would intervene. It brings up the fundamental question of going about armed. Are you carrying to protect yourself? Your family? Your freinds? Or to repel any mortal threat that you are in, even involving strangers?

You have no moral imperative to protect anyone else I suppose, but we do need to be crystal clear on what our own limits are. Personally, if a threat comes my way I feel an obligation to do my part to repel it. I know if my wife or daughter was the clerk I would hope that an armed stranger would come to their aid.
 
I'll stick to #1 if the cashier complies and the robber does not seem interested in anybody else. Let him flee with the money, get a good description and call the police on my cell phone when the coast is clear.

No 3 if the cashier is my wife/sister/girlfriend or somebody I personally know and like, or if the perp discharges a round or starts focusing on anybody else.
 
They will eventually catch the guy as he will undoubtedly keep doing until caught.

A lot of these scenarios pop up on here and I would suggest not intervening unless you feel YOUR life or that of your family (e.g. wife, kids, etc) is in imminent danger. If the guy walked in and started indiscriminately shooting people, threatened to take your daughter hostage, etc.

Trying to protect the cashier and the store from being robbed is noble and in a perfect world is the right thing to do. There are so many things that could go wrong it's not really worth trying unless you are a trained professional and even then it's risky business.

If you miss where does that bullet land? What if you hit but doesn't stop the attacker (he shoots the clerk and then turns to return fire spreading rounds across the restaurant hitting innocent people?) Even if you have two well placed shots to the heart/head and dropped him instantly you still maybe in for some trouble. A good attorney and the right state might keep you from criminal litigation, however, a civil suit can ruin your life as well. Some states protect those from civil suits when in self-defense but you better read the fine print: (e.g. "A civil lawsuit may not be brought against someone in self defense facing imminent danger when defending their person, wife, children, or other intimately related persons.) So by defending the clerk you open yourself up for civil suit.

CCW is generally regarded as self-defense that accompanies your family as well. It is not a permit to be a LEO.
 
#3 in general but as mentioned, it's rarely that cut and dried.

In the situation you describe didn't the owner of the restaurant shoot the guy or is that another incident?
 
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