Shopping in a convience Store, armed robbery happens, what do you do...

[Grey_Mana]

If you dont believe you are capable, then perhaps you shouldnt be carrying a gun.

Yes, because every possible situation you might face will be exactly the same as the theoretical one discussed here.

I am not sure what your point is. People die every day deserving or not. If you choose to live by the gun, you can expect to die by the gun. It really is that simple.

I don't know where you live, but in most of the US it isn't that simple. If you shoot and kill a thug for pulling a gun in your presence and robbing a store, and the liberal teenage clerk says he had absolutely no fear for his life until YOU started shooting, you've probably ruined your life, what with the long prison stretch, the permanent loss of your right to bear arms, and the civil damages for the cases you'll lose to the victim's family, the clerk, and the store owner.

I have absolutely no qualms whatsoever either because next time... he might just have the gun pointed at someone I do care about. Letting the bad guys run around free when you have the power to stop it is simply a bad idea.

You realize you've just confessed to premediating the murder of whomever you might feel a need to shoot at? And you've confessed that you'll willing to shoot without legal justification?

 

[archigos]

What do you do if they don't believe you'll shoot to detain them? Do you shoot them as they walk away and go to prison for murder?

In NY (so I assume in less oppressive states too), deadly force is permissible to stop a subject in their immediate flight from a crime that otherwise justifies deadly force. (These being murder, rape, armed robbery, arson, and, I believe assault with a deadly weapon.) Meaning if you see somebody rob a convenience store with a weapon, then flee - you can yell "stop", and if they don't, you theoretically can shoot them. Not to say that you won't have a legal battle over it...

 

[Thernlund]

Threadlock imminent.


-T.


EDIT: Maybe not.

 

[Biker]

Too many variables.

What does your gut tell you? Is this just some junkie out for a fix and willing to take a little cash and run, or is it a cold-hearted SOB who doesn't give a damn and is gonna march everyone into the cooler and do some greasing after he gets some cash?

If you don't know how to tell the difference, I can't explain it.

Does he have a Tailgunner or three out in that SUV? Is there a Tailgunner running 66 behind the Doritos rack?

Is that 5 shot revolver you're carrying gonna deal with all of 'em? You gonna make every shot count?

Then there's taking a life. Do you really want to do that if you don't have to?

It ain't like the movies. Killing costs at least one man his life and it costs the killer the rest of his life.

Think about it.

Biker

 

[ZeSpectre]

Whenever a thread like this comes up there are always those who love to jump in and level the charges of "unrepentant bloodlust" or of "pure cowardice".

Having actually been through some tight situations I can tell you this, you DO NOT KNOW what you are actually going to do until you have been in one of these situations.

I have seen "tigers" lock up and sit there babbling. I have seen "mice" jump up and ROAR. Seriously, you don't know and you'll never know because each situation has so many variables and unexpected kinks that there is no training or preparation that can guarantee your response.

The best you can do is think about it in advance and hope that you can make good and accurate decisions if (God forbid!) such a scenario comes into play.

Afterwards you will (unless you are some sort of sociopath) spend ENDLESS time AGONIZING over your actions even if you got the best possible outcome (nobody hurt, goodguys go home, badguys go to jail) let alone what you'll go through under the worst possible outcomes (and believe me DEATH is not really the worst of all possible outcomes) and that doesn't even begin to cover the other post-event aspects like lawsuits and retaliation.

Anyone who thinks there is a quick, black/white, one-size-fits-all answer to a scenario like this needs to do some serious thinking about how life works.

 

[ilbob]

ilbob, why are you standing up for Jeff? According to many people in this thread you should hide behind the potato chips! It is interesting that you would step forward to defend somebody you dont know instead of turning a blind eye!

I mostly agree with the idea of hiding, and said so in an early post in this thread. I would only step up if the situation warranted doing so, such as if it became apparent the robber was planning to murder the clerk in front of my eyes. I just do not see much up side to trying to interrupt an armed robbery over $30. As long as it is about the $30, I will be the guy hiding somewhere.

Jeff does not need anyone here to stand up for him. He does a very fine job of that for himself. I do not agree with him in all things, but I do respect his tireless approach of trying to educate those of us who might need some education.

Equating him to a Nazi over a minor disagreement of this type is way over the top IMNSHO.

 

[Parapacker]

Ok ilbob, so $30 is your cut off for springing into action? (I dont know how you know how much is in the till?!). So if the clerk handed over $34.99 you would spring in to action?

I dont necessarily equate Jeff personally to a nazi, but the idea that we should turn a blind eye or relinquish our safety to a government organization stinks!

 

[Treo]

while waiting for the Jeff White Gestapo to lock step in and save us.

Here's my what if,
What if you have a brand new member who's been here less than 24 hours. & What is said member has been belligerant in 2/3 s of there posts.

& what if the new member appears to be specifically targeting a mod.

Would you be over reacting to use
the "T" word?

 

[M1911]

If you dont believe you are capable, then perhaps you shouldnt be carrying a gun.

You are theoretically going up against a teenage gang banger or meth addict, not a member of Seal Team 6. While they average tweaker is still deadly, I would hope a trained and armed citizen would be capable of handling the assistance.

I've got 200 hours of training, including LFI, Cumberland Tactics, and Sigarms Academy. I've competed in IDPA. But I've had adrenalin dumps on a couple occasions and I'm well aware with how adrenalin can screw me up. Tunnel vision is a real problem. I may miss the bad guy's tailgunner. I may miss the shot. I may hit him and he may turn and get a lucky shot off against me.

Just because I'm trained and a moral person doesn't mean I'm always going to prevail. Bad things happen to good people.

In addition, my crystal ball isn't working that well, so I don't know who I might be up against. It may be an unskilled tweaker. Or it might be the modern day equivalent of Platt & Matix (Matix had been in special forces in Vietnam).

I guess if not, our only choice is to sit and cower in a corner sucking our collective thumbs while waiting for the Jeff White Gestapo to lock step in and save us. Sorry for the run on sentence.

I'm not a cop. I didn't sign up to protect the clerk. I signed up to protect me and mine. If the clerk doesn't value his life enough to take proper precautions, that is his problem. If I can get out, I probably will. That is my choice. You are free to make a different choice. I may caution you on the potential pitfalls, but I will not denigrate your choice.

 

[ilbob]

Ok ilbob, so $30 is your cut off for springing into action? (I dont know how you know how much is in the till?!). So if the clerk handed over $34.99 you would spring in to action?

As long as it was about the store's money its none of my business. No amount of money that is likely to be in the till is worth dying or killing for.

I dont necessarily equate Jeff personally to a nazi, but the idea that we should turn a blind eye or relinquish our safety to a government organization stinks!

Government does a horrendous job of protecting the interests of individual citizens. It is mostly interested in protecting its own interests. Personally, I see nothing morally wrong with the store clerk resisting an armed robbery with deadly force over 50 cents. I just don't plan on doing it for him.

If you are not equating Jeff personally to a Nazi, why did you use the word "gestapo" to describe him?

 

[T-Ray]

If he's got a gun on the clerk, it's a life threatening sitiation, i don't know whether or not he's a killing kind of guy. I take cover in back and try to see if there's someone else outside. If no mysterious persons outside, he's probably alone. In that case, I wouldn't do anything unless the clerk started doing something that the bg doesn't like, then if the bg seems po'd, a precision shot to the shooting shoulder would put him in a world of hurt and more than likely put the gun on the floor. If that gun gets pointed at me, he's a goner. If the clerk follows the bg's orders, i take many a (silent) pictures with phone. If more bg's outside, pics of licenseplate and car can get me a lot of crimestopper money. I don't want to be a hero, i don't have a badge. If i were in the armed forces, it's my duty to protect my country, and he'd be a gone, but i'm not a soldier.


I'll just stay out of cs and gas stations.

 

[Parapacker]

Oh, so I see Treo, you only want to have spirited discussion about the issues that face us if it agrees with your view of things!

I guess I should have been more subserviant when I joined THR and hidden in the background and kept quiet while the adults talked.

You know what I think? I think you are all a bunch or JeffBotts and dont dare step out of line for fear of having your priveleges revoked! I will go one step further and say this board needs a breath of fresh air....I sense too many LEO, EX-LEO's or WANNABELEO's on this board. There is definitely a party line here that must be toed.

Guns are our right. Not just a privelege to be held by law enforcement. You can use your gun like any tool to increase your odds of success. You can choose to stand back and let others be harmed since "it isnt your fight". Or you can step forward and be a man, a patriot, an American, superhero....whatever you want to call it. My point is American needs more people to stand up to crime. We are a society of victims and our children are victims-in-training. The police cannot protect you from harm. Period. End of story.

 

[Realbigo]

Well heres my say. Ive worked in a 7-11, and a Crown gas station, and if i was just a bystander, I'd go w/ mouth shut, get low, draw and make ready, keep my eyes on the ***** head, and dial 911 on my cell phone in my pocket. Here at least they have that smart 911, so it will track back to my phones gps. Hopefully he takes the money and leaves. If he moves to do any real harm I make the challenge and if he dosen't drop his weapon, be it gun, knife, or big stick of some sort, I get a safe angle and fire. When I worked at Crown, I started my shift at 11pm and was there until 7am. I worked alone, and couldn't lock the doors till midnight when i had to go in back to stock the cooler. We put a sign on the door, and people knocked if they needed to come inside, but most folks just payed at the pump. Initialy, I worked unarmed until 2 genius robbed 6 other Crowns in one night. They got away clean until they hit the closest other store to mine and managed to pull up as the PD was pulling in to check on the clerk. Thankfully the only one injured was one of the geniuses, when they exchanged fire with the cop. Aparently it wentlike this; Cop: "Stop where you are!"
BG1w/a snub revolver: "F%$k" Bang Bang Bang Bang clickclickclickclick
BG2w/a Glock: BangBangBangBang Etc....
Cop:"*****" *dropping to cover* BangBang in to BG2. "drop it F-****" to BG1.
I actually got payed OT to help fix the fence that was behind the cop when it got so well ventilated. I also started carrying in my truck, and before I locked the door each night, I switched my wallet out for my cz-70. I didn't have any problems until one night. I wasn't paying attention, while sweeping up some mud clods w/ the whisk broom and a long handled dust bin, when a shaky dude walks in and headed right for the counter. I greeted him and went to my register. as i started to punch in my code to unlock it, I saw him raise his right arm. as i looked over, he took a swipe at me w/ a small folding razorknife, lunging across the counter, and register knocking the screen off the counter. I jumped back, right into the dust pan. I grabbed it and brought it down on this head and shoulders twice like an ax. The damn thing shattered, and he ran for the door. He made it as i got around the counter. I went after him, and he headed for a car. As I went out the door, I threw one of our trashcans (That we had right by the door) at him, bouncing it off his driver side door and changing his direction. This store was virtually in the middle of no where. There were houses down one way, houses and a church another way, and about a mile down the third way(it was a T intersection) a drawbridge over the Intercoastal Waterway. He headed toward the Drawbridge. I grabbed the cz-70 and went back inside and hit the alarm button. The guy never said a word and the whole thing didn't take a whole minute. About20 minutes after I finished giving my report to the responding officer, another cop pulled up, with the guy in the back of his cruiser. it just goes to show you that there is never any knowing what will happen. I carried every day i worked 7-11, and the 3 closest store all got robbed on my shift. We never had so much as a shopliffter.

 

[Treo]

You know what I think? I think you are all a bunch or JeffBotts and dont dare step out of line for fear of having your priveleges revoked! I will go one step further and say this board needs a breath of fresh air....I sense too many LEO, EX-LEO's or WANNABELEO's on this board.

T
R
O
L
L

 

[ilbob]

Oh, so I see Treo, you only want to have spirited discussion about the issues that face us if it agrees with your view of things!

I don't recall he refused to discuss it with you, he just doesn't agree with you.

I guess I should have been more subserviant when I joined THR and hidden in the background and kept quiet while the adults talked.

You are welcome to talk, and people are willing to listen, but it is a two way street.

You know what I think? I think you are all a bunch or JeffBotts and dont dare step out of line for fear of having your priveleges revoked! I will go one step further and say this board needs a breath of fresh air....I sense too many LEO, EX-LEO's or WANNABELEO's on this board. There is definitely a party line here that must be toed.

Jeffbott?? I do not recall anyone having any "priveleges" [sic] being revoked for polite disagreement. Some people have been disciplined for not abiding by the rules of the forum. I personally have no problem with the LEO's posting here. They have some good points to make, even if I don't always agree with them. Are you going argue there are too many engineers here because I don't agree with you?

Guns are our right. Not just a privelege to be held by law enforcement.

I doubt anyone here would disagree.

You can use your gun like any tool to increase your odds of success.

Only if the problem facing you is something that particular tool is helpful with.

You can choose to stand back and let others be harmed since "it isnt your fight". Or you can step forward and be a man, a patriot, an American, superhero....whatever you want to call it.

I do not wish to be a hero, especially over $30 that the owner of the $30 almost certainly does not care about.

My point is American needs more people to stand up to crime.

Agreed. The answer is not to hang out at 7/11 hoping a robber will show up so you can shoot him.

We are a society of victims and our children are victims-in-training.

And that needs to change. People need to take more responsibility for themselves in a lot of areas, and need to band with others in arenas that the individual does not have a whole lot of hope in prevailing in.

The police cannot protect you from harm. Period. End of story.

I doubt anyone here would argue that either.

BTW, I can highly recommend iespell. its a freeware spell checker that will help you with some of the words you are having trouble with.

 

[Shade00]

How you should react depends on how much money you have for a good defense attorney as well as knowing whether your state considers defense of others as an affirmative defense to the killing of a human being.

 

[Armueller2001]

Who cares if you "don't have the obligation to protect anyone"... The robber is pointing a gun at someone, which is threatening deadly force. Don't be a pussy and go run and hide in the bathroom. Are you the same kind of people that will just drive by a car accident on the highway, or keep driving if you see a girl getting raped in an alley? I mean, you don't have any duty to protect them since you're not a cop or a paramedic...

How would you feel if you had the chance to take the shooter down but didn't, and he shoots the clerk because he doesn't want any witnesses?

 

[ilbob]

Who cares if you "don't have the obligation to protect anyone"... The robber is pointing a gun at someone, which is threatening deadly force. Don't be a pussy and go run and hide in the bathroom.

And if interjecting yourself into this type of situation makes it worse?

Are you the same kind of people that will just drive by a car accident on the highway,

I would bet most of us have driven by many accidents on the highway. In most cases your best course of action is to call in and report it. Unless there is some imminent danger to the people in the accident, what else are you going to do?

or keep driving if you see a girl getting raped in an alley?

big difference between a rape and $30. BTW, how do you know she is being raped?

 

[K5mitch]

Personally, I have no clue how I would act. I would trust my gut instinct on what to do (flee, hide, defend myself, etc.)

I have just enough money every month to get myself a couple recreational outings of my choice (range, bowling, movie, etc.) I take my choice to carry seriously, but make no claim to have any type of professional or private training.

I honestly believe a good portion of those who carry are like myself.

Sure, when I get a better job and more disposable income I could get some of that high-speed-low-drag training. But until then, I'll take my homemade target stand down to the public range.




Based on the litigious society today, lets say we choose to hide and be a good witness. The perp proceeds to shoot clerk and flee before you can do anything. What prevents the victim and family from suing you from failing to act?

Rock and a hard place, which is why I state I'll go with my gut.

 

[Yoda]

There are TWO actors playing in this scenario...

For those who advocate shooting the BG when you can, consider this. No matter how good a shot you think you are, you have no way of absolutely guaranteeing that your shot or shots will instantly drop the prep. Even if you motrally wound him, he can start shooting back at you, or the clerk, or other people in the store, or he could miss you all and send his rounds down the street toward who knows who.

For myself, I've decided there are certain "red lines" which, when crossed, I will have no doubt about what to do. (1) If the BG starts to herd everyone into the bck of the store, or to make everyone get down into a position of disadvantage, then I shoot. (2) If he fires even one shot, then I shoot. (3) If he hangs around and puts on an irrational display, I shoot. (4) If he tries to take a hostage with him, I shoot. (5) If he sees me hiding and starts coming my way, I shoot.

Beyond that, every case is unique. You never know if the BG will just randomly shoot someone with no warning, just because he can and he's been brought up wrong. But once you shoot, you can start a two-way exchange, and all those wild shots are going to have to end up somewhere.

I recall an article a few years ago where an off-duty cop (in Chicago?) was in a fast food resturant when it was robbed, and he shot the bad guy all right, but the bad guy's return fire killed a young kid.

As long as it's only money or property, let it go. You can always make more money and buy more stuff. If it's life or liberty, defend it with your life.

- - - Yoda

 

[ilbob]

Based on the litigious society today, lets say we choose to hide and be a good witness. The perp proceeds to shoot clerk and flee before you can do anything. What prevents the victim and family from suing you from failing to act?

Is there even a single case of this kind of law suit? Ever? Keep in mind in a lot of areas the perp or his heirs will sue you.

 

[K5mitch]

Probably not. But I hear several outrageous ones every year (guy suing over homosexual reference in the bible comes to mind right now)

http://blog.mlive.com/grpress/2008/07/lawsuit_against_zondervan_comp.html

Is it really that far of a stretch?

 

[GEM]

The police don't have a responsibility to protect you, IIRC. So certainly, Joe Schmoe - the Internet ninja doesn't.

It would be funny do if one did get sued for not helping and one's bloodlust posts from THR were used in the trial.

 

[Zip7]

Years ago, a buddy and I were at a CS getting gas in the pickup about 2AM when the place was robbed - at knife point I think... Anyway, the police arrived in almost no time - 1 patrol car w/ one guy followed by some more a few minutes later.

When the Policeman pulled up the BG ran out the door and made a lap around the building with the Policeman in hot pursuit - no gun drawn. When he came around the other side he came straight at us at the gas pump, and the BG made a few laps around our truck keeping it between him and the LEO. We had jumped up in the back of the truck and were unarmed, but when the BG came around behind the truck about the third time, my buddy clocked the guy with a short 2x4. This dazed him and he ran out into the street where a newly arrived female officer clocked him with a nightstick and cuffed and stuffed him.

Never a gun drawn. We thought it was kind of comical at the time, and the LEOs thanked us and we were on our way, but I'd guess the same situation would be likely to be worse nowadays. Apparently this was just some crazy wino and wasn't particularly dangerous.

 

[Thernlund]

Line-item quoting sighted! Useful content ceased! Name calling commenced! Threadlock again imminent!


-T.