"What? You Don't Have A .40 Caliber In Your Collection"?

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I wonder if some marketing guru in the future will use the slogan "sure to start an argument" when introducing a future caliber :D ?

I personally like the 40 and have three, the XD tactical, service and sub compact. Is it snappy? Sure is. That is fine with me. But I don't mind the recoil of my 1911s, my 357 snubby or my 38+P snubbies either. Actually I kind of like it (must be something wrong with me). With the XDs, if I could have only one it would be the sub compact. I don't find it to be hard to control at all.

I don't know if I believe the perfect caliber exists, but I do like having enough variety to have some options for carry under a variety of circumstances. Some are just plain fun to shoot too.
 
I've got two Sig .40's. I find them to be easy to shoot and accurate. The recoil isn't excessive. I've fire 1500 hundred rounds in a weekend before and the only pain I experienced was my thumb from loading magazines.
 
I bought one of the first available P229 Sigs and have loved the .40 S&W ever since. Lately my .40 carry piece is my Kahr PM40.... now if Kahr would just come out with a .357 Sig conversion barrel like they did for my P229 ....
 
40 S&W V.S .357 Sig

no one blew up at that - go for it!?!

actually, i jest, i was thinking about checking out that cartridge - i can get a barrel for that on my XD / 226 Sig - never knew much about the round other than it is new and kinda of an "oddball" like my 40 S&W. i have never heard anything bad about it, nor have i known anybody that has one.

thought about getting my XD in 45 GAP - but it is "very" new. i used to shoot a lot of 9mm - now the only nine i have left is my HiPoint Comp - but obviously you can't get much trade / sales on those jewels if they are used. it will fade into obscurity since this XD owns my interests - if i get bored - i have a Sig 226 in 40 as well. if i want to shoot cheap ammo - i have an AK-47 in 7.62X39. ;)
 
No 40s Here Either

Without being specific, I have quite a few pistols and revolvers... more specific than that might cause problems with the spousal unit... :D

Anyway, I have had three or four .40s... and didn't like them at all... and all are gone save the Para P16-40 Limited I had fitted with a 10mm BarSto barrel... and it is for sale if anyone wants such a gun.

Why no .40s? Well... to me it is the answer to a problem that didn't exist. Others have discussed the lack of merit for the .40 so I'll pass that by... but will comment that having had two kBs with .40; I am quite convinced it is not only unneeded, but unreliable too...

FWIW

Chuck (Call if you need a Para P16-40/10)
 
Others have discussed the lack of merit for the .40 so I'll pass that by... but will comment that having had two kBs with .40; I am quite convinced it is not only unneeded, but unreliable too...
Click to expand...

Whoa! That's a lotta KB's! :what:

Please tell us the brand of the pistols and ammo and the circumstances of the... events?

And please tell us that no one was injured? :eek:

StrikeEagle
 
Don't have one either. Plenty of 9's, .45's and 38/357's but not one .40. No use for the round.....more dies, more cases, more bullets, different magazines....no thanks.
 
My thoughts I would prefer a .40 over .45 anyday. I like the idea of being able to carry more, more powerfull rounds in the same size package, and the .40 allows this. 135 gr at 1420 fps and 620 foot pounds of energy at muzzle out of a 4.5 inch barrel. The very best I have found for the .45 is 185 gr at 1225 fps with 616 foot pounds of energy at muzzle out of a 5 inch barrel. I have found no problems controling my Beretta 96. However given the choice between a 9mm and a .45 of the same size I would take the 9mm anyday espically with the current ammo avaliable 115 gr at 1415 fps with 511 foot pounds of energy at muzzle out of a 4.49 inch barrel. None of these rounds are poor choices however the .45 takes up a lot of space compared to the numbers it puts out when compared to the .40 and the 9mm and the specs they put out.
On another note if the .40 is so uneeded then why does it have such a high one stop shot rating even higher than the .45 from what I have read. Lastly if I remember the famed .357 Manstopper round was a 125 gr at 1450 fps and 584 foot pounds of energy at muzzle out of 4 inch barrel. It seems to me that the above mentioned .40 load would surpass this round if effectiveness
 
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With all due respect what loads are you shooting. The fastest 135 grain loads for the 40sw are rated at 1300 fps to 1350fps depending on your gun. The 45 acp can push a 165 grain load at 1250 fps. Thats 546 footpounds for the 40sw and 572 for the 45 acp. Another problem is I would never chose those loads both will underpenetrate. A better load for the 45 acp is a 230 grain +p ranger load at 990 for 500 footpounds. It expands to .80 caliber and penetrates 13 to 14 inches. The best 40's are the 165 and 180 grain loads with between 360 and 480 footpounds penetrating 14 inches or so expanding to .73 caliber or so. Energy is not an effective measure of stopping power by itself. As for the 1 shot stop ratings if you put stock in those figures you must know that Evan Marshall has the 230 grian Federal Hydra Shock listed as a 96% stopper from a 5 inch 45 acp. That ties the other king of the hill the 125 grain 357 mag. The best 40 is listed at 94%. But know now this figures are also hottly debated and no one even Evan himself would take them at face value.
Pat
 
Beretta,

You are looking at the wrong numbers - KE is great and all, but you should be looking at penetration and expansion. When the rounds expand, .45s expand bigger then .40s, and .40s expand bigger then 9s. Of course, when they don't expand - .45s are still bigger then .40 are still bigger then 9mm.
 
A little history for those who do not know the 40 Smith and Wesson caliber.

In 1986, FBI agents using issued 9mm handguns and 147 grain bullets that were orginally designed to be used by supressed sub machine guns, (that were never meant to be fired from a pistol to begin with) got into a gunfight in Miami Flordia, with two scumbags. Brave agents died in the ensuing gunfight and there began a of loathing for the 9mm luger round. There were those in the FBI who wanted the 45acp brought into replace the 9mm and there were those who wanted to keep the 9mm luger. Neither of which happened and the FBI went with the newly invented 10mm which promised more knock down power and flat trajectory which gave the the FBI 41 magnum like ballistics in a semi auto format. Only thing was few people could control a 10mm with full power loads and the FBI was issuing them to everyone. They started to load the 10mm down and some began to call it the 10mm lite. Some wanted to go back to the 9mm and some still wanted the 45acp but the powers that be did not want that. Then Smith and Wesson entered the argument with their new 40 Smith and Wesson that was based on the reduced 10mm light loadings. The new cartidge also was able to fit in the same platforms as a 9mm luger and a new star was born. Everyone in the 1990's was jumping on the 40 band wagon and law enforcement agencies were buying like crazy. Years ago I remember how a gun magazine printed an article that proclaimed it as the new king of the hill (this was back in the 1990's) and that a caliber had finally dethroned the 357 magnum as the king of the one stop shots. (one of my all time favorite calibers) the 125 grain jacket hollow point had a staggering 95% record of one stop shots. The 40 Smith And Wesson crept in a short time to 96% one shot stops. I adopted a wait and see attitude at the time. Then the infamous let's do nothing about crime but make a symbolic gesture and say we did brady law came into effect and limited the number of rounds to 10 per mag. Now that everyone was limited to 10 or less rounds people figured that you might as well have 10 big bullets rather 10 mid caliber rounds and the 9mm luger and 40 Smith and Wesson lost some of their sales appeal on the civilian market namely lots of extra ammo in those formerly unrestricted mags but now with the ban everyone was on the same level playing field. As a compromise round the 40 Smith and Wesson is a great round. Will it ever be a 45acp? No. But there are people who can't handle a large caliber and really it all boils down to what can you hit the target with each and everytime you fire and how fast you can recover to fire a second shot. You might have a 500 smith and wesson magnum available but if you miss how fast will that second shot be and will you have the time to fire that second round? One of the most easy recoiling weapons I fire was a Glock chambered for 40 cal and it felt more like a 380acp or a 32acp and not a large caliber round. The 40 is a good round if you don't care them the there are lots of other choices out there to choose from.

I hope I did not cause everyone to get drowsy reading this just thought it would be interesting to know.
 
sorry but there is a huge error in the post above. The agents in the 1986 Miami were using 115 grain Silver tips. This shooting and the enterpreted failure of the silver tip round caused the FBI to adopt the 147 grain rounds as a stop gap until they issued the 10mm. The Silver tip in all honest was not the problem it was bad tactics that got the agents killed. Miami PD was on the way they should have waited. Another point the 40 is not more easy to shoot than the 45 acp. It mearly comes in smaller easier to carry weapons. The 45 acp has less subjective recoil to most people.
Pat
 
My regular carry guns are a pair of High Powers in 40 S&W, anyone that thinks it's an "iffy" gun simply doesn't know anything about gun design. The .40 is an excellent round for just about anything, a little more than a 9mm, a little less than a .45, but life is full of choices. Yep, I've owned 1911's in .45 and qualified and shot extensively with them in the military, a fine round. I've got no problems with the 9mm or .45 as defensive and target rounds, although I don't think you can make major power factor for shooting games with the 9mm. I actually shoot my 9mm's more than the 40's because the ammo is just so darn cheap (mostly in my High Power Competition and Inglis).

Why do people get so charged up about a firearms caliber? They're all fun to shoot. Heck, I even carry a Bersa .380 as a BUG, and if you can hit your target it's much better than a stick, even as a primary weapon. I've also got a bunch of .32's (Browning 1900,1910,1922, Dryse etc.), if someone can only afford, conceal or shoot well with a .32, even it will be better than a stick.
 
I was hopping someone would ask where I got those stats. Check out Double Tap Ammo. As for the suggestions as far as ammo, no thanks from the research that I have done I appears that it is possible to still get adaquate penatration and expansion form higher energies. When penetration is roughly equal between two rounds I prefer the faster round with more energy. As I understand it the faster more powerful round will expand at a shallower depth of tissue and expends energy in destroying a larger area of tissue before coming to rest at the same depth of penatration as that of the slower less powerful cartridge which penatrated further before the same degree of expansion was acheived, thus less overall tissue damage. I understand the concerns associated with shallow penatration, and therefore would not choose any round with out seeing shooting results that showed the round to have sufficent expansion and penatration qualities. All and all I feel that the most efficent ammunition is the ammo that first you can control and second the one that has the most energy and still penetrates and expands to acceptable values.
 
Sounds like you got the right idea then! You are smart in checking the penetartion 1st; too many people climb all over the fps (and KE), not realizing the higher speed can actually limit the penetration.

The DTap penetration/expansion numbers are awesome (saw some in another thread..)
DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"

DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion
135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps - 12.10" / .72"
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68"
200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59"

I tried the 230s in my Colt LWC - they were a bit much for that, but with those terminal numbers I will try em in my full size. BTW, the newer Fed HST 230 @950fps were good - a bit more shootable - and there are some good numbers on those too.
 
Sorry but I don't trust my life to someone elses handloads. I prefer factory ammo. Double tap does not qualify for me.
Pat
 
I originally went looking for a .45 cal CCW and after looking found that .40 was offered in packages that meet my needs better than the .45s did, unless I wanted to spend an extra $150-$200. That was 2 years ago and since then have only found one model of .45 that I would consider a good carry gun for me that isn't $700 or better.

That being said, I would still love to have a .45 but don't see it as an urgency because the .40 cal will do the same (more or lessw) with a few more rounds in the mag to boot.

I do have a 9mm in the same model of gun as the .40 cal for cheaper practice.
 
That being said, I would still love to have a .45 but don't see it as an urgency because the .40 cal will do the same (more or lessw) with a few more rounds in the mag to boot.
END QUOTE

Thats funny that really applies to the 40 vs the 9mm. The 9mm will do the same with less cost and less recoil and a few more rounds in the mag. So why bother with the 40.
Pat
 
Not much bigger chunks when it really matters. The best 9mm's penetrate 12 to 14 inches and expand from .60 to .70 caliber. the best 40's penetrate 12 to 14 inches and expand from .65 to .75 caliber. The best 45's penetrate 12 to 14 inches and expand from .70 caliber to .80 caliber. See their is not much difference. Not enough of one to get worked up about. I carry a 1911 because I like the gun. If it were in 9mm and worked reliablly I would also be happy.
Pat
 
I was one of the first on my block to own a 40S&W. I bought a Glock 22 in 1994 and still own it. I recently bought a Glock 17 and 19. I shoot them better than my 22. The future of my Glock 22 is now in question but I will probably hang on to it.
 
Not much bigger chunks when it really matters. The best 9mm's penetrate 12 to 14 inches and expand from .60 to .70 caliber. the best 40's penetrate 12 to 14 inches and expand from .65 to .75 caliber. The best 45's penetrate 12 to 14 inches and expand from .70 caliber to .80 caliber. See their is not much difference. Not enough of one to get worked up about. I carry a 1911 because I like the gun. If it were in 9mm and worked reliably I would also be happy.
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That me be true, but the way I look at it is I have the biggest possible bullet in a package that I can carry, and that is the nitch the .40 cal fills. Also the little extra expansion a .40 gets over a 9mm might just be enough to sever an immobilizing nerve in a BG.

I bought a Glock 22 in 1994 and still own it. I recently bought a Glock 17 and 19. I shoot them better than my 22. The future of my Glock 22 is now in question but I will probably hang on to it.
Click to expand...

I never really liked the G22, I like the G23 much better, but near as much as I liked the G17. But I have found that that I shot a Steyr S40 just as a well and the Glock G17.
 
Thats funny that really applies to the 40 vs the 9mm. The 9mm will do the same with less cost and less recoil and a few more rounds in the mag. So why bother with the 40.
Pat
Click to expand...

Ouch! Hahahaha, that must hurt... Evil chuckle :evil:

The only problem is the stupid people that limit the mag capacity to 10. It really takes away one of the serious advantages of the 9mm.

To quote an instructor, "What can't you do with 3 mags of 10 that you can with 2 mags of 17?"

Answer:" Shoot 17 times in a row without reloading. Duh." :rolleyes:
 
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