Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Whatever happened to Occluded Eye Gunsights?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Kaylee, Nov 18, 2004.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Kaylee

    Kaylee Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,749
    Location:
    The Last Homely House
    Finally getting a chance to play with a red dot, and you know... it seems at least as easy to use with the front lens cap closed as open.. the lack of "fuzz" in the sight picture seems like it might even be a hair faster...

    So um... why did the OEG things go so completely off the scene? Was there some big flaw I've not found yet?
     
  2. esheato

    esheato Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    2,784
    Location:
    NoVa
    I'm not sure why they're not more popular. A guy at our local shop ordered one in the other day. We mounted it for him and I got to play around with it. It seemed very fast. I'm curious as to the response also..

    Maybe the ACOG had something to do with it...

    Ed
     
  3. Wildalaska

    Wildalaska member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    5,296
    Location:
    Anchorage, Alaska
    The Trijicon reflex is used as an OEG and is hugely popular in military circles. I ususally shoot with mine as an OEG at 100 yards

    I talked to some guys coming out of Afghanistan that used their ACOGs as OEGs when room clearing.

    Wildclear!Alaska
     
  4. QuarterBoreGunner

    QuarterBoreGunner Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2003
    Messages:
    1,932
    Location:
    West Oakland
  5. nemesis

    nemesis Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    553
    Location:
    Texas, On The Border
    Armson's are still available, I was considering putting one on my flattop. M-68 AimPoints are OEG sights also.
     
  6. ETCss Phil McCrackin

    ETCss Phil McCrackin Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2003
    Messages:
    245
    Location:
    Texas boy on loan to the USN
    Ok, I'll ask the dumb question.......

    What is an OEG, and how do they work?
     
  7. Bigfoot

    Bigfoot Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2004
    Messages:
    708
    Location:
    Oregon
    It's a red dot sight that doesn't transfer an image or light. If you look though it all you see is the red dot in blackness. When used with both eyes open however, your mind sees the red dot on the target.
     
  8. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    19,205
    Location:
    Alma Illinois
    ET1ss Phil McCrackin asked;
    OEG stands for Occluded Eye Gunsight. That means that one eye is blocked from viewing the target. You must have binocular vision for an OEG to work (some people don't). Basically one eye sees the red dot in the sight and the other eye sees the target. Binocular vision lets you see both at once, superimposing the image of the red dot on the target. They first became available in the late 1960s. They were never really popular. I'm not sure why. I think Redfield or Bushnell made a battery operated one that they sold to shotgunners.

    In 1970 when COL Arthur Simmons was training the task force that flew into North Vietnam and took down the Son Tay Prison camp, he was searching for a way to increase the hit probability in the dark. His mission had top priority for everything and anything they wanted. Yet the military supply system was unable to come up with a suitable solution. Night vision devices like we know today were in their infancy. The then smallest weapons mounted NOD in existance was a prototype of what was to become the AN/PVS4 (which is very large and ungainly (but smaller then the AN/PVS2 then in use) and only 5 of those prototypes existed. The story is that one night Simmons and his armorer were trying to solve the problem when they came across an ad for the Armson OEG in either American Rifleman or Guns and Ammo (I've seen both version of the story in print). They ordered a couple to try and the team's hits went up dramatically. They local purchased enough for the men who raided the prison camp and they worked well.

    I don't know why they never caught on. Perhaps because shooting with both eyes open is so alien to many people. As others have pointed out, you can use just about any of the red dot sights as an OEG. So all the naysayers who say you can't use an aimpoint because you're done if you splash mud on the objective lens are wrong.

    Jeff
     
  9. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    14,613
    Location:
    Texas
    Because OEGs depend on binocular vision to work correctly, there are several issues that are unique to OEGs and explain why they didn't catch on:

    1) The zero is only good for a particular person - because every person has slight differences in distance between their eyes, the stance they shoot in, and the amount of phoria (eyes don't track together perfectly) they experience, an OEG will have a different zero for every person who picks up that weapon.

    2) The zero is only good at a specific distance. Again; because of the tilt of your head, distance between eyes etc. the OEG will be exactly on target at only one range. At all other ranges it will show both horizontal and vertical deviation. Outside of 100yds, they start to become useless rapidly. Deviation can be huge too - 4-8 inches even over 100yds.

    3) If you are right-handed; but left-eye dominant (or vice versa), the concept doesn't work as well since it relies on combining the views from your weak and dominant eye.

    OEGs are very fast at room-length distances; but they have mostly been made obsolete by rugged, fast, parallax-free sights like the Aimpoint and EOtech (both of which can still be used as an OEG). The Armson is still more rugged than most sights in its price range; but due to the cost of tritium and manufacture, you can usually find even cheap red dots below that price range that don't suffer from the same issues (and you can always make a red dot sight into an OEG; but you can't make an OEG into a reddot).
     
  10. Harry Tuttle

    Harry Tuttle Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2003
    Messages:
    3,093
  11. shoobe01

    shoobe01 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2004
    Messages:
    416
    Location:
    Kansas City
    Bart, these points tend to be true for most other sights, especially dots that are not occluded. People get over them with training. I know of a situations in the 70s with KCMO Reponse Unit where a marksman with a borrowed AR-15 wounded a BG instead of killing him because the gun wasn't sighted in right.

    Another important innovation has been the Bindon Aiming Concept. That's how all the ACOGs with the external light gatherer's work, and I do the same even with a cheap illuminated riflescope. Bascially, if you have something over 3-4x magnification, and a sufficiently illuminated graticule, then when you go both-eyes open, the picture thru the optic occludes and the scene thru the left eye becomes dominant, with the aiming picture from the right eye superimposed. So, an OEG, with all its quickness. Close an eye and you are back to magnified precision.

    While OEGs and aimpoints are (more or less) parallax free, an occluded ACOG is not. Never heard a complaint though. Just keep a consistent cheekweld and it will all go okay.

    Armson OEGs are used in places where they make sense now mostly. Sorta like the paintball example, I have seen them on grenade launchers. Dial in a range, which angles the sight and when you line the dot onto the target, the gun is correctly elevated. For a grenade launcher, the elevation is so high the barrel blocks the sight picture. For an OEG, that doesn't matter though.

    Shoobe, I thought I was replying to you and snipped parts of your post I agreed with. To my shame, I had actually edited your post. Please accept my apologies. There was nothing offensive or wrong with your post, I just screwed up - BR
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 21, 2004
  12. Dbl0Kevin

    Dbl0Kevin Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2004
    Messages:
    1,183
    Location:
    SC
    Wow that's really weird. After reading this thread I had to go grab the AR out of the safe and try looking through the red dot with the front lens cover shut. Sure enough it still worked and put the dot right on target!! :what:

    Guess ya learn something new every day. :)
     
  13. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    14,613
    Location:
    Texas
    There are slight shifts in aim based on individuals; but up to 8 MOA in the horizontal or vertical plane (or both)? Big difference. Sure, you can train around any disadvantage; but its easier to go with a superior product.

    I've owned an ACOG for two years now and been using them for four. I had exposure to the OEG back in 1985. While ACOGs use the same concept as an OEG, the important difference is that you can look through the ACOG and negate the problems mentioned above. You only use it in the same fashion as an OEG for close range.

    OEGs are definitely not parallax free - note my above statement. For that matter, as you point out an occluded ACOG isn't parallax free, so how could an OEG be? At close range, that won't make a difference. At longer ranges it will. That is why most people just use the BAC concept to put them in the vicinity of the target for longer ranges and use the magnified view to adjust the final aim.

    OEGs are a nifty concept and still fun to play with on subguns and other close range fast shooting; but they are obsolete now.
     
  14. 444

    444 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    7,950
    Location:
    Ohio
  15. uxb

    uxb Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    Castle Anthrax
    The original sight on the Son Tay raid was the Singlepoint sight, not the Armson OEG:

    [​IMG]

    I just purchased this one for an XM177E2-clone.

    Here is a pic from the JFK Special Warfare Center Museum of an original Singlepoint in the mount:

    [​IMG]

    I currently am running an Armson OEG from 1982 that has been refurbed by Trijicon on my XM177 clone:

    [​IMG]

    Over simplification of how they work - assuming you are right eye dominant:

    Close your right eye, and your left eye sees this:

    [​IMG]

    Close your left eye, and your right eye sees this:

    [​IMG]

    Open both eyes and your brain translates the input from both as this:

    [​IMG]

    Mostly outdated, but still practical. They were the stuff back in the early 1980s, but have been replaced by "high-speed low-drag" stuff.

    If anyone has one stored away in a box, or tool kit, or drawer and the tritium is dead and you are not using it, I would be interesting in purchasing it if it is the OEG that mounts on the AR carry handle.

    Thanks,

    uxb
     
  16. Ironballs

    Ironballs Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2003
    Messages:
    169
    Location:
    Vegas
    i just picked up an Armson OEG (ar03) on gunbroker... supposedly new in box, and i assumed new production,... but the dot is to faint. I will call Trijicon tomorrow to see the born on date...

    love the concept, and red dots in general (both eyes always open style shooting)- but if this is all you get/as bright as its supposed to be... then i would be dissapointed.. trijicon seems weak, as well as the day shooting which really bugs me...
     
  17. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2005
    Messages:
    24,960
    Location:
    The end of the road between Sodom and Gomorrah Tex
    Being nearly blind in my right eye, I don't have any interest in 'em, never did. When they came out, I tried it and wondered what looking at a dot in blackness was supposed to accomplish. I have such severe astigmatism, I couldn't figure it out.
     
  18. uxb

    uxb Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    Castle Anthrax
    Ironballs, you may end up disappointed. The half-life of tritium is just over twelve years, meaning in twelve+ years your dot is half as bright as when started.

    In the daytime, the brightness of the dot will vary with ambient light conditions. The brighter the light, the more transferred by the fiber optic. Bright light, bright dot. Dim light, dim dot.

    The dot is only illuminated by the tritium at night. Compared to electronic sights like a Comp ML2, the dot is very dim. They were originally designed to be used after twenty minutes of dark-adaptation by your eyes. What appears to be a dim dot initially actually becomes quite visible after your eyes are dark-adapted.

    Are they as bright as an Aimpoint or an EOTech? Nope. But they do work. I ran one on an XM177 in Central America in the early '80s, and back then it was "high-speed low-drag" and our hit ratio improved dramatically over plain iron-sights.

    MCgunner, occluded eye gunsights only work for people who have good binocular vision. Astigmatism only makes things worse, even with non-occluded red-dot sights. Especially if the intensity is set too high. Then you just get a fuzzy dot or a "comma"-shaped dot with a "tail".
     
  19. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2003
    Messages:
    12,160
    Location:
    DFW Area
    WARNING! BEFORE reading farther, please read the disclaimer at the end of the post.

    You can use the back of a pistol as an OEG for quick closeup work.

    Rather than looking at the sights, look at the target THROUGH the back of the pistol. Of course there's no red dot, but the outline/silhouette of the slide frames the target and you can see the target through that silhouette. Very fast and surprisingly accurate.
     
  20. Seventhsword

    Seventhsword Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2003
    Messages:
    246
    Location:
    Republic of Texas
    I picked up a Armson OEG AR04 last year for $70.00 NIB. The red dot is very bright, it's light weight and holds it's zero. I really like this sight, it's very fast and will keep pretty tight groups at 100 yards on my Bushy M4 ..:)
     
  21. Grunt

    Grunt Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2004
    Messages:
    907
    Location:
    Somehwere in 14T NT
    Hey UXB, where did you find those early XM-177E2 sliding stocks? VERY cool!!!
     
  22. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    14,613
    Location:
    Texas
    Holds its zero? I am guessing you are shooting it at the same range every time then. Try using it at 25yds, 50yds or 200yds. You'll see a noticeable shift in point of impact v. point of aim. It is still pretty handy for shooting at less than 100yds though and it is quite fast.
     
  23. orionengnr

    orionengnr Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2005
    Messages:
    5,434
    uxb,

    Quote:
    "If anyone has one stored away in a box, or tool kit, or drawer and the tritium is dead and you are not using it, I would be interesting in purchasing it if it is the OEG that mounts on the AR carry handle.
    Thanks,
    uxb"

    I have one, and it is the original Armson OEG with the AR15 carry handle mount. I sent you a PM with more details. Sent me a PM or email and make an offer.

    Best, Rich
     
  24. ART SCOTT

    ART SCOTT Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2009
    Messages:
    1
    Reviving an old old old thread...............


    wow this is very interesting ...... I tried out an Armson sight back in the mid eighties, but the one I tried had a white capsule over the dront end and if you looked into the back side of the tube it was just black.....the front capsule was a hydrogen isotope that emitted a blue dot that was easily seen at well over 100yds.

    I was told that the use of them in Viet Nam was so the enemy could not just pick up a slain soldiers weapon and be accurate with it......... that the Armson sights were sigted in to each individuals eye and anyone else shooting the weapon could be of by as much as several feet ........even if off by a few inches could be life saving..........

    I do not know for sure this just what I had been told by a few Viet Nam vets........
     
  25. paintballdude902

    paintballdude902 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2007
    Messages:
    2,872
    sorta but still not common, i saw a hand full of people use them when i was playing semipro

    they aren't all that practical in the game since alot of us dont aim we point. but we all practice to make our pointing be the most practical since it doesnt take as much time as a true aim does

    and you cant train a scope for trajectory its got the drop of a .44magnum x10 its not hard to see the arc of a paintball but we all learn to compensate


    i wouldnt mind getting an oeg for home defense sounds like it would be a good match with my .30-30 HD gun
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page