What's a 300 Mag in Alaska Good For?

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Jaywalker

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No, I'm not trolling for an argument, I just want to understand what the 300 Mag in any variety (H&H, Winchester, WSM, etc) is built for. Yeah, I know, elk and moose, but let's break that down a little first. It seems that there should be more to it than just "extra velocity means flatter shooting which means easier to hit at longer ranges." There should be a need for power also.

This kind of came to me recently when a THR member from Alaska gently took a couple of people to task for the opinions of the Lower 48 on what constitutes an adequate Alaska hunting round. He said most folks from Alaska use 30-06, 8mm, or even 30-30, and are generally happy with it. There are times, he concluded, that a .338 would be nice to have around big bears.

Chuckhawks.com attributes to Jack O'Connor the observation that a 180-grain 30-06 would go through both shoulders of a big bear and "kick up dust on the other side." So, I presume, a 300 Mag would kick up even more dust on the other side. Is there a point ot the size of the dust cloud? Maybe the higher velocity actually causes the bullet to expand more in the moose or big bear and thereby not exit? Does the 300 Mag mean extra killing power on game?

If the 300 Mags don't add anything or much to the killing power, what's the point in taking the extra hammering of the recoil?

That's my question: if a 30-06, say, can carry the load up to bears, and that's where you want a .338, what's the use of a 300 Maggie?

Jaywalker
 
The deal with the Big Brown Bear isn't just the shooting of the bear. It's the problems that ensue if that first shot doesn't anchor him, and he decides to play "Paybacks".

It's one thing to shoot an unaware bear at 50 to 100 yards, and he doesn't know where you are. He finally falls over dead and all's well. The trouble comes about if he's aware of your existence and is merely wounded. The old "Dead, but didn't know it." deal. That can be the time when "Too much is not enough."

One survey of some 14 Alaskan guides showed that something like 8 or 9 one-shot kills occurred with the .300 Win Mag; and a few reported needing second or third shots with .338s. Mostly, I guess, shows that marksmanship is quite important...

Overall, the .300 Win Mag is a .30-'06 with 50 to 100 yards more effective range. Sometimes, terrain makes that little bit extra a necessity.

$0.02, Art
 
This is a subject where I become an ammo snob. My belief is that premium bullets that offer superior penetration make caliber upgrades unnecessary. Another is the enhanced performance of the 'light magnum' and 'high energy' concepts of Hornady and Federal respectively. These loads in the .30-06 pushes it's performance into .300 mangle 'em territory and they happen to be loaded with a choice of premium bullets.
I'm going on a brown bear hunt here in my backyard later this month. My rifle is a .30-06 loaded with Federal Premium High Energy with 180 grain Nosler Partitions. Hunting smart is the other part of the equation. Pass on all marginal shots especially those that don't offer good exposure to the vitals, use hunting and stalking skills to get within reasonable range, and marksmanship, marksmanship, markmanship.
My guess is any bear shot with a properly placed .30-06 isn't going to be able to tell you how much difference a .300 would make.

Art,

There was a hunting guide here in AK that once stated the .338 was "all smoke and no fire" when it came to grizzlies. I'm not sure why or how, but I've heard it from other folks too.
 
I see the .300's as a long range rifle for fairly big game - sheep, caribou out on the barrens, etc.
I wouldn't choose a .300 for big bears or moose, though it would probably be fine if that is all I had. But if I had a choice, I'd look to something throwing more mass, not something throwing a .30 slug at higher velocity.

Keith
 
Having lived and hunted in Alaska for 2 years I feel comfortable commenting on this issue.

While I don't have a ballistic chart in front of me. I do believe that the .300 Win mag gives about a 8-18% increase in ballistics over the .30-06. While many would argue that this isn't much of an increase, it is enough IMHO to slightly make up for a difficult shot that may have to be passed up with a .30-06.

Now please don't take the previous comment wrong. I'm not saying that the 300 Win mag makes up for sloppy shooting or stalking skills. I'm just saying that if you have to take a marginal shot with a 30-06 having a 300 Win mag would likely make that same shot acceptable.

If you are interested in reading a great book about Alaskan hunting get "Alaskan Bear Tales". Lots of horror stories about using enough gun when hunting the big bruins. One of the stories is about a gentleman named Craig Sharp (If I recall the name correctly). Anyway I got a chance to meet Craig and see the stuffed bear he talkes about. I sure would have felt under gunned with anything but a .375 H&H mag with that animal.

FWIW - If I ever get a chance to get back up to Alaska and hunt, which is looking highly unlikely. I plan on bringing a Rem. 870, 12ga shotgun and a Rem. 700 chambered in what else, that American classic..30-'06.


Rob
 
While I wouldn't choose it as a round to go strictly after moose and Bear, many do and they do just fine, thank you. I always suggest my customers purchase a .338 if they intend to focus on those species. The 300 is more than enough for a moose and more than enough for a bear. The problem is, as was stated, hunting is not always what people in moose/bear country have to do. When you happen between a bear and its cub, you might need to ANCHOR that bear and fast. When you spook a Moose when her calf is nearby, that moose might have skipped the lesson on exterior ballistics.
 
There are a good many cartridges I've never shot. I've read a lot of the comments about some of them both at TFL and here, during these nearly-five years. (Wow! Has been a while, hasn't it?)

One is the .338; the other is the .375 H&H. I have shot the .300 Win Mag.

From what I've read, the recoil of the .375 H&H is more of a strong, sudden push, instead of a very sharp and heavy Whap! sort of thing. That's a "near as I can tell" sort of thing, of course.

Just from the standpoint of the type of recoil--and I'm not particularly recoil sensitive at all--I'd likely get a .375 for hunting the Big Brown Brute. Sitting here in my chair, I think I'd be quite confident in the rifle, and I think I'd not mind the recoil...

Natcherly, part of it is because I just sorta WANT one of the danged things.

:), Art
 
I guess I'm as interested in how a bullet works as whether it works. There's no question that an '06 works, because it has worked for years, as Badger Arms has said in other posts (though certainly not recommending it). If it works there's no real question that the 300 Mag works also, always assuming bullets that are up to the task. If an '06 bullet fully penetrates, though, what more do you get from a bullet at a higher velocity? More than 100% penetration? Less?

Art's survey of 8 or 9 one-shot anchors is interesting. Are there any figures on the '06? Also, did the report mention bullet placement as a factor with the .338 one-stop failures?

Jaywalker
 
Higher energy, delivered into a watery mass such as the brain or heart, will cause more disruption, more "Splatter".

For proper expansion without "blowing up" or fragmenting, all bullets have some operating range of velocities. I know from TFL that the Sierra folks will chime in if they're alerted to a thread on the subject which mentions their bullets. And, all the bullet-makers can answer multitudes of questions about this...

My "survey" was taken from one of the "Big Three" outdoorzines, probably Sports Afield. No mention was made of the '06. Placement, per se? I don't recall. I imagine the average guide would prefer that clients use more gun, as they're just not all that confident in the marksmanship of all too many of today's hunters. Guides wanna survive, too. :)

Art
 
We build tons and tons of lightweight hunting guns, sell 10 times as many and fix hundreds and hundreds..

Based on all of that would say that the 300 WM is the most popular among Alaskan Hunters, followed by the 338...

What that means is anyones guess


WildusewhateveryalikeAlaska
 
A quick check of the books gives me roughly three 300WM's sold for every 338. Add a speckling of 7mm's and 375's.

Let me highlight what I always say when I sell a 300. a 30-06 is s just as powerful as a 300 from 200 yards. The .308 is just as powerful as the 300 from 250 yards. What the 300 allows you to do is take a shot from a greater distance and still be assured a clean kill. Anchoring the animal is important at close range, so you should choose a load which holds together at under 50 yards. Nosler Partitions are geat. The few recovered Failsafe Talon's I've seen have performed adequately. I prefer Speer Grand Slam. I always recommend a bullet weight of 200 grains, although 180 works fine on all large North American Species also.

I'd have to say that the main selling points of the 300 are lower recoil, flatter shooting, and more versatile if you hunt smaller species or hunt lesser-48 game.

Guiding is a different story. If you are a guide, your gun is intended to back-up what the hunter is using. The guides I've spoken with and sold to swear by the 375 H&H but many also used the 338. Again, a few other calibers like 416, 458, and some of the less popular Weatherby and proprietary calibers.
 
Okay, it's clear that folks have voted with their wallets and they believe that the 300 Mag is at least adequate for protection from critters that also eat moose.

As to bullet performance - what happens usually? Full penetration of the critter?

Jaywalker
 
it's clear that folks have voted with their wallets and they believe that the 300 Mag is at least adequate for protection from critters that also eat moose.
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone has said that. The .300 is an adequate HUNTING round! That's quite a different thing than a round for STOPPING big critters.

Guides here on Kodiak almost all use the .375. Guides don't "hunt", they carry those heavy rifles in case the client blows the shot and they are left to sneak into the alders and sort out the mess.

A hunter can afford to snipe a big critter and then sit back and eat a bag of Frito's while waiting for the animal to bleed out.

If you want to stop a big critter right NOW, you need a very heavy slug that will penetrate stem to stern and break every bone in between - with a brown bear you are talking about six to seven feet of muscle, bones and organs!. No .30 will do that because the slug simply doesn't have enough mass. It isn't until you get up to the range of 250 grain slugs that you get the kinetic energy required. And even there, you would be well advised to choose a very well constructed bullet.

Keith
 
Kodiak as in the Kodiak bear, the largest Bear species.

kbb4.gif


Now remember. Shot placement is everything. When hunting and you see a bear like the one above, stop and take a moment to think about the situation. Where do I place the shot? That's a good question, you could aim for the forehead, but Bear skulls are pretty thick... Whoops, you just got eaten.
 
People just don't know! When they hear the word "bear" they think of the black bear or grizzly they saw in the Tetons...

These are bears:
 
You guys just don't understand ...

With millions of 30-06 rifles in circulation, how the heck you gonna sell a new gun if the 300 mag isn't way better than the 30-06 ??? :D


Badger,
I would put the shot in the bear's left shoulder, just missing his (her?) left cheek.

So how do I taste ....? :)
 
Slightly off topic, but what are you folks in Alaska hearing about the .300WSM and Ultra?
 
Bears aren't real picky about how you taste!

A shoulder shot on actual attacking bear means you'd now have a three legged bear eating you... Unless it was real heavy slug that carried all the way through and broke a hind leg as well. A two-legged bear is a grounded bear - a three-legged bear is merely slowed to 20 mph (or whatever) instead of 35 mph.

The bear in the photo is unaware of the photographer, or it would have its head up looking at him with the nose centering the face. The best shot on an advancing bear is the nose. The brain is behind the LOWER half of the skull - behind the nose/mouth. The upper half of a grizzly skull is a bony crest to which the musles of the neck and jaws attach. No CNS up there... and that's where the "bullet-proof" bears skull myth comes from - and it is a myth!

A nose shot is the best shot. A miss right or left may take out a shoulder which will at least slow him down. A low shot may hit heart/lungs which ...might... kill him before he's completely done turning you into a grease-spot. A high shot may hit the spine depending on the terrain, position, etc.

If you hit the nose, even with a light rifle, the bear is dead.

Keith
 
Found some brownie prints near my house

buying a BRNO ZKK in .375 with the PFD funds.

I'm sure with a well-placed heart/lung shot at inside 100 yards, my 1891 Argentine Mauser would drop a brown bear nicely. The bullets have a very high SD and the rifle sports excellent accuracy. But who can guarantee that shot? What if said brown bear decides to come for a visit?

Re. .300 WSM--seen a lot of it unsold around town. Every other store seems to have big bags of brass for it, which is surprising for a "hot new cartridge." Not sure if that means much--perhaps everyone is overstocked.
 
Cosmo,

Take a look at that new Remington in .350 Rem Mag before you buy! The model name escapes me at the moment, but it's simply a model seven when all is said and done.

I own the same rifle, except I had to buy mine from the Custom Shop a few years ago - and pay a lot more for it!

This rifle has won my heart! The ballistics are within spitting distance of the .375 and the darned thing is so light, compact and ergonomic that it's a delight to shoot offhand. I'll never buy another hunting rifle, which is something I never thought I'd say!
But this rifle is IT! It's the perfect Alaskan rifle.
It's shorter and lighter than my Marlin Guide Gun, and (with 250 grain slugs) has similar stopping power. So, it makes a great "poking around" gun when you want a carbine with enough muscle for bears.
And it has all the range I need for deer and caribou hunting - it shoots out to 250 yards before you need to worry about holdover.

The only bad news is that the factory ammo is all 200 grains. They're pushing the rifle pretty hard so maybe they'll offer a 250 grain load again... Either way, I'll just stick with 250 grain Partitions since I reload.

Oh here - I just pulled up a link: http://www.remington.com/firearms/centerfire/673.htm

Keith
 
Keith:
A shoulder shot on actual attacking bear means you'd now have a three legged bear eating you...
Click to expand...
:D Count me in for doing my part for the disabled. Neat picture, by the way. Puts me in mind of the old Crocodile Dundee line (misquoted): "That's not a knife - now THIS is a knife!" Those are BEARS. I would never have thought of the "nose shot." (It sounds like something a competent comedian could do something with.) Interesting info on the bony crest of the skull, too. Thanks, though I don't think it'll ever come up around here.

More Keith:
it's clear that folks have voted with their wallets and they believe that the 300 Mag is at least adequate for protection from critters that also eat moose.
Click to expand...
I don't think anyone has said that. The .300 is an adequate HUNTING round! That's quite a different thing than a round for STOPPING big critters.
Click to expand...
I'm either misunderstanding here or I'm misunderstood. I assumed that when people in Alaska buy a .300 Mag for non-bear hunting, they're at least considering the possibility that it will have to be used on bears in defense. Again, it's an assumption, but it's based upon the observation that a 30-06 is adequate for non-bear hunting; if a 30-06 will work for a 1600-pound moose, but you're using a 300 Mag, then there's a defense component to your "wallet vote." (If they're bought just to make a "200 yard 30-06," i.e., stretch the effective range, then there isn't any defense component.) Am I missing the point?

Does the 180 g 300 Mag fully penetrate bear shoulders, or does the higher velocity tend to keep the bullet inside?

Jaywalker
 
I think you may be missing the point...

Unlike anywhere else, there is actually a market for bear "stopping" rifles here because people are mauled and killed every year.
Check out the co-pilot at wildwestguns.com some time for the best example of a "stopper". Jim West has made a career out of building this rifle for the Alaskan market and even people like Jeff Cooper praise him for it.

If you were to come up here to Kodiak in July you'd see fisherman packing various carbine length .45/70's and short-barreled shotguns. They aren't hunting!

People choose .300's for hunting because it's appropriate for the big game around here. It's a good round for black bears, caribou and moose, etc. And it's at least a "reasonable" choice for stopping a bear... But the primary reason for that rifle is because much of the state is fairly open country where you appreciate the extra range of a .300 - and the animals are big enough that you want to throw 180 or 200 grain slugs with some authority.

I hope I haven't just confused the issue more... I just mean to point out that rifles here have a primary purpose as either a hunter or a stopper. You can use either type for either purpose, but you are sacrificing something - a .300 with a 26 inch barrel (and another 3 inches of recoil compensator) along with a 3x9 scope is not a very good choice in an alder thicket when a bear is charging you. You're blind even if you can get the rifle swung around through the branches in time.
A .45/70 Co-Pilot with a sixteen inch barrel is a lousy choice when a caribou is clacking across the tundra at 250 yards range...

Keith
 
A .45/70 Co-Pilot with a sixteen inch barrel is a lousy choice when a caribou is clacking across the tundra at 250 yards range...
Click to expand...

My hunting partner just popped one at about 165 with a 300 grain 457 (2300fps)...

Looked like a bomb went off on the thing...

WildouchAlaska
 
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