What's all the fuss over "Cam Over"?

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Bugholes from Bipod
Precision Shooting with Froggy

Part II — RELOADING
Elements of Accuracy — Making Perfect Ammo

Q: With the micro-sized groups you shoot, you must be doing some special voodoo. What is the secret to super-accurate reloads?

The secret to accuracy is that there is no secret–a good robust process that is repeatable every time is the key.

Q: OK, then, describe your reloading process…

When I get home from the range, I tumble the brass for a couple of hours to clean the necks up. After taking the brass out of the tumbler, I clean out all residual walnut media and walnut dust. I then use a little Imperial sizing wax on a RCBS pad to lightly coat the neck area of the cases.

I use a RCBS Rock Chucker single stage press. When using this or any other press, ensure that the ram has no lateral play or side-to-side slop–that will kill your bullet run-out.

After placing the correct shell holder onto the ram I use a stiff brush to remove any dirt trapped on the surface of the shell holder. Then the Full-Length Redding resizing die goes into the press. This die is adjusted to bump the shoulder exactly .001-.002″. I have removed the expander ball on the decapping shaft. Trust me, don’t use the expander. In most cases it will just tweak the neck or throw it out of alignment.

Bumping the shoulder .001-.002″ is the key to concentricity. If your press is in good shape and you use high-grade dies your end result will be excellent. But, again, get rid of the expander ball. Your brass is fire-formed to your chamber. It is already straight and round–so you dont want to tweak it with the ball.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/shooting-skills/bugholes-from-bipod/
 
Ed.

Marco Polo claimed to have traveled to China, because of information about China that was omitted in his story a good case can and has been made that Marco never got past the Camel Stop at The Crossroads, it is believed he got all his information about China from camel drivers traveling with caravans. All their story's started with “You are not going to believe this”,

In my opinion you should start your stories the same way.

You were told the 308W chamber could not be cleaned up with a 30/06 reamer, A 308W chamber can be cleaned up with an Ackely Improved reamer or a 30 Gibbs reamer, or by setting the barrel back (that is cryptic),

As to your claim: the 308W has less case taper and is shorter, meaning the 308W is larger in diameter, then you claimed the 308W is nothing more than a short 30/06, after that you claimed Dick Culver gave you part of your monument to man fame, in my opinion Dick Culver failed to inform you the 308W he fired in his match was a work out for his gas operated M1, then there were other questions, me? I am not mad at no one, but there are those that become indignant when his name is mentioned, because of his claim about firing the 308W’s in the M1.

To Quote KingMT, “to quote you”, or “your quote” Google is my friend” or “Google is your friend” Back to firing the 308W in the M1, to quote you “The 308W is a a short 30/06” and that is when I did not respond, I was warned you had to have the last word, that does not make me an enabler, other members that should be familiar with case specifications and chamber specifications are the ENABLERS, back to Dick Culver, the difference in case length between the 308W and the 30/06 from the head of the case to the shoulder is .388, on any M1 forum Culver’s claim jumped out, those that know what they are talking about had big doubts about the pressure drop being able to operate the pressure system, I understand your addiction to attention did not allow you to give Dick Culver credit for you monument to man’s whatever, (Your Quote, Thank you KingMT).

your quote again, “The 308W is nothing more than a small/short 30/06” On other M1 forums shooters know a short 30/06 represents excessive head space, if what you claim was true and if the 308W was a drop-in case to the 30/06 chamber there would be .388 head space, again-cryptic, the 308W is shorter and has less taper than the 30/06, when the 308W is chamber in a 30/06 chamber the large in diameter case/shoulder of the 308W must be sized when chambered.

And you were told if a 308 is a drop-in for the 30/06 chamber check the 30/06 chamber, the 30/06 chamber is too small in diameter at the 308W case shoulder juncture by .011 thousands, and if that the reason a 30/06 reamer can not clean up the chamber of the 308W and, again when chambering a 308W in a 30/06 chamber part of the case body and shoulder must be sized when the bolt is closed.

Then there was your mistake with pressures and conversions, then there is the beam type torque wrench tapped to the press. In the real world the question was asked about foot pounds and torque applied when sizing, then the conversation went into lofty terms, then I said I can do that, with a strain gage and verify with a torque wrench, and one person ask “HOW?” and you want me to take you serious, when posting pictures make it look like you are actively involved in reloading, not good for someone with all your claimed experience to only have new tools. My opinion, it will cost you a fortune to catch up, not with experience but in tools.

F. Guffey
 
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Why are you blaming me. I didn't say any of that. Fact I know nothing about a 308 or 308W. I barley know anything about a 30-06. Don't put wards into my mouth.
 
"Why are you blaming me. I didn't say any of that... Don't put wards into my mouth."

King, fergit it, it's all pointless gibberish anyway.
 
You ask the question about “eat your heart out FGuffey” you seemed to think that was wrong, later I responded to your question with “There is nothing like two standards” and you responded with “I do not understand”.

Ed was giving someone a difficult time, seems Ed was using the term “To Quote you” I thought it was you,

Forgive,

F. Guffey
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by fguffey
Kingmt, nothing like having two standards.

F. Guffey

I don't understand.


Allow me a minute to run on a bit. Think of a rubber band & a rubber ball. If you squeeze a ball or stretch a rubber band they are under force & fight to get back to there at rest shape. Metal does this also. This is how bolts hold. A nut is used to stretch/crush the bolt to pull/shove to hold something in place. Large bolts that you can't get enough force to stretch the bolt by turning the nut requires a hydraulic cylinder to stretch the bolt then run the nut down & release the jack to allow the nut to hold the spring of the bolt.

So the question was can you get any more press after the shell holder contacts the die. The answer is yes but you need all of the leverage of the press.

My vote is for cam over.

Now to side track. Explain why I keep seeing eat your heart out fguffey.

Unless I'm taking it wrong it isn't appropriate & seems like it would be against forum rules.

This is the High road, how can there be two standards.

F. Guffey
 
Because the shell holder doesn't have to make contact with the resizing die to properly resize the cartridge case to have .001 to .002 head clearance.

Because you didin't invent the reloading press.

And you didn't invent cartridge headspace either.

What makes you think you are the father of all things headspace and resizing cartridge cases.
 
Ed, I have been told not to type slower, again, the 308W must be sized when chambered, there are those that doubt D. Culver gas system would eject the cases they believe if in fact D. Culver fired the cases he had to eject his fired cases manualy because of the drop in pressure, Culver’s cases head spaced on the shoulder, if you can chamber a 308W case do not make the mistake of firing it as Culver claims he die, if what you said is true and the 308W is a small 30/06, when fired you will have .388 head space.

Culver claims the gas operated bolt closed with enough force/energy to chamber the 308W round, again, on a bolt gun the bolt closing will require more effort, because when closing the bolt on a 308 W in a 30/06 chamber the case is sized enough to allow bolt closing,

Ed., I have asked you before have you no pride. I thought, with Google being your friend you could get past and over some of this, I believe you take liberties you should not have when you allow yourself to be provoked, I have a suggestion, search case specifications for the 308W and the 30/06, then compare, you must share.

F. guffey
 
fguffey

You talk about taking the high road and yet in so many words you are calling Dick Culver and myself liars.

Dick Culver has his own website and has been published at the CMP M1 forums and you say he is lying about shooting a 7.62/.308 in a 30-06 M1. The military did it in testing with and without a chamber plug and you call me a liar.

You look at a drawing and call it practical experience when you have NONE at all on the subject.

"eat one's heart out"

EtymologyDisputed. Three schools of thought exist:

From "This will eat your heart out.", suggesting that the recipient of the taunt will have their heart, the core of their being, eaten out with desire, bitterness, or pain.

From the 16th century "to eat one's own heart" (to suffer in silence from anguish or grief), possibly from the Bible "to eat one's own flesh" (to be lazy) The phrase "to eat one's heart out" appears as a formulaic phrase in the Iliad, meaning to experience extreme grief. (For instance, Iliad.24.128, many other locations.)

When used as the taunt "Eat your heart out, [someone]!" a suggestion that the recipient of the taunt "eat up" as much as they like. (From the same construction as "dance your heart out," etc.) Literally, similar to "have all you can eat!" Figuratively more akin to "experience me besting you."

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/eat_one's_heart_out

Eat your heart out fguffy, you are wrong and Dick Culver and I are not liars.
 
Because the shell holder doesn't have to make contact with the resizing die to properly resize the cartridge case to have .001 to .002 head clearance.

Because you didin't invent the reloading press.

And you didn't invent cartridge headspace either.

What makes you think you are the father of all things headspace and resizing cartridge cases.




Ed, thank you talking to me in a civil manner,

Because the shell holder doesn't have to make contact with the resizing die to properly resize the cartridge case to have .001 to .002 head clearance.


True, again I have a M1917 Eddystone with .016 thousands head space, I adjust the the die off the shell holder .014 thousands, I do not use 5 time fired cases, I start with 280 Remington cases.


Because you didn't invent the reloading press.

Again, true, if there is a difference, it has to be the way the press is used, I am not confined to the instruction, when chambering a rifle, I stop short of completing the chamber then form short cases to fit the short chamber.

And you didn't invent cartridge headspace either.

true, I do not use head space gages, I check head space three different ways without a head space gage, a case fitting a chamber, to me, is the difference between the length of the case from the head of the case to it’s shoulder and the length of the chamber from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber. I have a grinder that makes pilots, tapper gages and also is a butt-grinder, that is all that is required to make a head space gage, but when finish the gage is one definitional.

What makes you think you are the father of all things headspace and resizing cartridge cases.

When the bolt closes the chamber gets dark, for most, again I check head space three different ways with the bolt closed. One reloader lost it when he suggested to an OP he could check his head space with a Cero-safe casting, I suggested the responder explain how that is done, I informed him I was one of the few that can do that, and suggested there were easier ways.

Again, I determine the length of the chamber first, when I set-up my die in the press to the shell holder I have a transfer.

F. Guffey
 
Ed. sit down with Dick Culver and decide between the two of you how it happened, both of you can not be correct, either his claim is wrong or there is something you do not understand about the 308 W and the 30/06 chamber, again, and I hope you are not claiming any one could be proud of the way the old CSP was run. There were some very talented shooters/reloaders that left that forum out of disgust.

and I offered to help locate equipment/servers, at the time the equipment was being stripped for metal and shipped overseas, or shipped intact, cheap, and I was dealing with someone that worried about my motives,

I brought one home, hooked it up, fired it up, then the wife came home, that is when I learned she was not going to live in a wind tunnel.

F, Guffey
 
a.k.a. the Ellis Island thread

Feels just like the line-up to board the midnight train to Brooklyn, West Virginia. Wake up from a nightmare ride and you're in a coal mine on the New river...still in the dark !
 
It is somewhat reassuring to note that we aren't the only forum that is wallowing in ignorance.
 
I honestly have never seen someone say so much about handloading/reloading and at the same time say nothing...
 
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I would like to sincerely apologize for ever asking anything about using a feeler gauge to set up a resizing die or a press camming over. I had no idea the furies that question and comment could unleash.
Alex
 
No furies or any other mythological Greek creature was released here, the Greeks didn't have any mythological beasts that spread bovine scat throughout their kingdom.

Read the Sierra reloading link below if you want to know how to set up your dies and press and its that simple. Reading the front of your reloading manuals will prevent the release of the bovine scat monster and keep your life simple.

"All the information in the world is written in books and all you have to do is read" ;)

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/resize.cfm

Adjustment of the full length die calls for the die body to be screwed down in the press until it contacts the shell holder at the top of the ram’s stroke. If the ammunition is to be reused in the same gun the cases were originally fired in, back the die off 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn and size a lightly lubricated case. Wipe the case dry, and chamber it in the gun. If any resistance is felt, lower the die body another 1/8 of a turn (or less), and repeat the process with another fired case. This is repeated until the action will just close without resistance. When this has been accomplished, set the lock ring to secure the die in place. This method will ensure that the fired cases are resized with a minimum amount of headspace. This case has now been “custom fitted” to that particular chamber.

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/index.cfm

Custom shell holders are made to give exact control on how far the shoulder of the case is bumped back for a custom fit in YOUR rifle.

7-17-201054345PM.gif

Or you can raise your dies by placing shims under the dies lock ring to give you the correct cartridge headspace for your rifle.

7-17-201054719PM.gif

And gauges to measure your cases after firing and resizing for the correct cartridge headspace.

7-17-201055522PM.gif

headspace_gauge_rs.jpg

Pushing the shoulder back too far on your cartridge cases will cause short case life and case head separations when the brass stretches and thins in the web area. ;)

f55-movie-dsf1.gif
 
Ed,

That forum! This is from a question about punch primers, and the #1 answer should have been, FIRING PIN SPRING, they went straight to head space, then wanted the OP to purchase ‘Mo-Tools’, Years ago I was warned to never get involved in a fight between two Arabs, seems the logic says both will turn and attack me, I did not get involved in the 15 page assault you made on the forum, had I got involved, well, you understand, and note, when he furnished the link there were only 11 pages, I heard him holler for help, I hear you hollering for help, understand I can not help you.

Bozo699 Wayne ask:
Are you by chance related to Big Ed?
Wayne.




“except of course for Ed”
Bozo699, Who is Ed?

F. Guffey
Quote from: fguffey on 08:40 AM, 09/23/11
"except of course for Ed"

Bozo699, Who is Ed?

F. Guffey

Well I will tell you F.G he is a fella on here that makes no sense what so ever in his posts just like you, he likes to argue just like you appear to like it also. I remember a thread one time he was involved in about case lubing which I might add is a common practice, he just couldn't SHUT UP ABOUT IT!!! page upon page of his colorful illustrations and quotes from his gun Bibles, that's all you lack is the pictures and you could be his clone, here is a typical post of his and if you follow the entire thread on lubing cases you will see what I mean,...or not.


Big Stuff -- 6.5mm, 7mm, 30 Cal and up / experience with frozen bolts...from WAAAAYYYY TOO MUCH VARGET!!
« on: 10:25 AM, 06/03/11 »
Quote from: bozo699 on 10:36 PM, 06/02/11

I'll give you credit Ed, you never give up with the 1929 shooting bible and your personal vendetta against lubing cases for fire forming, I remember this thread the most, 11 pages and 4416 hits and half of them out of the 1929 gun bible, and other wonderful illustrations
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php/topic,3754346.0.html

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php/topic,3760779.15.html



”Are you by chance related to Big Ed?"

In defense of Big Ed? There are three I know of, one is in Kansas City, he is OK, problem, he does not answer the phone, no longer in service and he does not respond to email.

In my opinion there is one of the three that goes way out of his way to make himself look good at others expense, I understand conceited , big ego personalities that are self centered, in my opinion he can not help it.

I am impressed you and I agree, I have no ideal why you suggested I excluded anyone from the conversation.

Again, forgive.

F. Guffey"

And if you will thumb through those pages you will come to a question you ask about the reason the thread was resurrected, or something to that effect, they are bench ‘resters’, I shoot from a bench, they fire form, I form first then fire, they wanted me to get involved, the up side? There have been questions about locating dies for forming, fire forming is done for immediate self gratification, but when they start forming first I believe they will continue to fire form, and in doing so they will continue to lube their cases, as they explained to you, they are not shooting Mausers, Springfields etc., etc..
 
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Hawkins, I should have warned you, I come with baggage.

You were hi-jacked, you deserve the best answers and options, you have just been offered another option, Skip’s Shims, I do not make money from the sales of tools, as to Skip, I do not know him, meaning I have no motive, do not allow someone to intimidate you into limiting your options, after you purchase Skip’s shims you will still need to verify your adjustment with a feeler gage if the purpose is to create a gap between the bottom of the did and top of the shell holder. The question now is “Why purchases Skip’s shims if you are going to verify the adjustment.

Again, I do not secure the lock ring to the die, I secure the die to the press with the lock ring, not easy for most to keep up with but the die has threads, the threads (incline plain), because of the threads on the die the die advances when turned, I advance the die first, make the adjustment, then secure the die to the press.

And this was about a press that does not cam over, one reloader did modify his press to get .001 thousands and no one measured the cam over they do not have but in the beginning all thought they did, and then there is still the part about the linkage at the bottom of the press getting tangled up when the ram is raised, no one removed the die in the top of their press, raised the ram and observed the ram kicking forward, or got under the press
and observed the ram being kicked back.

And no one wondered what was going on when the ram was raised while sizing a case. The ram in the video clearly shows the ram kicking forward, again, China got kicked in all 6 ‘k’nees.

In the beginning there was the 1/4 turn, 1/2 turn etc., now, when you see someone post about bumping the shoulder .002 thousands ask them how they acquired such precision, the best answer? “I made a wild guestimate of a turn”

F. Guffey
 
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