What's all the fuss over "Cam Over"?

[GLOOB]

Perhaps when it gets worn out, it'll start to cam over. But it appears to be designed to stop right at TDC. I've never gotten it to cam over, and I have tightened my dies and pressed on it pretty good, trying to get some stiff rifle brass to behave. (Ended up annealing it, and problem was solved)

This guy agrees:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=635044

Paul5388, the moderator on Handloads.com posted this in 2008:

The RCBS Rock Chucker is an example of a press that "cams over" and the Lee Cast Iron Classics are an example of presses that don't "cam over". That's why Lee gives instructions for both types of presses.

Perhaps our presses are defective. I'm not saying you're wrong. Just curious where you get your information.

 

[918v]

OK then, how much "over" do you want it to cam before you consider it having the ability to do so?

I don't care if it is .000001" or .010", setting up the dies to to compensate for the frame springing is what matters, if doing so is necessary to begin with.

 

[GLOOB]

I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from on this. How much do I want it to cam over? I don't really care. It either does or doesn't.

setting up the dies to to compensate for the frame springing is what matters, if doing so is necessary to begin with.

I've agreed with this all along.

So to be clear, is the definition of "cam over" now meant to be recognized as "setting up dies to compensate for frame springing?"

This word is incredibly ill-defined, isn't it?

 

[bigedp51]

kingmt

biged
If you put a shim under the case all you are doing is raising the deck. No one said to drive a wedge in it. There is no way you are going to shove a case in that far without centering it. Now if the expander is canted that is a different story.

I think that fguffy goes through a lot of trouble I don't need to in my reloading & disregard a lot of it but that doesn't mean he is wrong. I have never read anything he has posted that was wrong. I have read a lot of other misinformation or close enough to work but not right on this form but he is right on everything that I have read.

1. Mark me down as having higher standards than you do kingmt.

2. Show me any reloading manual that tells you to "shim" the shell holder.

3. Shimming the shell holder can prevent the case from floating and being able to self center in the die and thus control how concentric the cartridge case is.

4. Show me a case that has been fired and reloaded that doesn't have dings and dents in the rim that can effect the case from centering in the shell holder especially if you shim the deck of the shell holder.

5. What's all the fuss over "Cam Over"

From the Sierra reloading manual:

Excessive Resizing

Instructions included with most die sets suggest screwing the die body down until it contacts the shell holder, when the ram is at the top of its stroke. We feel that this is undesirable as it often results in excessive resizing, which in turn, can result in reduced case life. While this may be necessary when the ammunition being loaded will be used in a number of different firearms, we strongly recommend that resizing dies be adjusted using the first method described in the Full Length Sizing section whenever possible.

Full Length Sizing

Adjustment of the full length die calls for the die body to be screwed down in the press until it contacts the shell holder at the top of the ram’s stroke. If the ammunition is to be reused in the same gun the cases were originally fired in, back the die off 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn and size a lightly lubricated case. Wipe the case dry, and chamber it in the gun. If any resistance is felt, lower the die body another 1/8 of a turn (or less), and repeat the process with another fired case. This is repeated until the action will just close without resistance. When this has been accomplished, set the lock ring to secure the die in place. This method will ensure that the fired cases are resized with a minimum amount of headspace. This case has now been “custom fitted” to that particular chamber.

Depending on your rifles headspace a properly adjusted resizing die does not have to touch the shell holder.

All this "Cam Over" and shell holder BS because some of you people aren't reading the reloading manuals. And on top of this I don't want someone giving me shade tree mechanic advice about shimming shell holders, inducing error and creating inaccurate reloaded ammunition. And if the competitive shooters at http://www.accurateshooter.com/ didn't want to hear about shimming the shell holder that should tell you something.

Now kingmt, you asked a question and I gave you an answer, there are 6,996,981,398 people on this planet and not everyone is going to agree with you and fguffey, so get over it. I'm NOT shimming my shell holder and I wouldn't even suggest someone even trying it, end of story.

 

[kingmt]

I wish you would get over your attitude.

I'm not telling you to shimmer anything. I don't shim anything. It can be done if needed tho. If you have .010" clearance then a .002" shim on the deck isn't going to keep it from flooting. Shell holders are made to fit more then one case head while being close enough to work.

 

[cfullgraf]

If the equipment manufacturers cannot agree on setting up dies, do you really expect us peons to be able to agree?

The desired result is to resize brass exactly the same every time regardless of what the resizing objectives are (minimum resizing, optimum chamber fitting, fit any chamber, perfectly centered, etc.).

One trouble is we are dealing in a thousandth or two of variance. The tolerances in the various components of the press ram mechanism can add up to more than a thousandth or two. Add in lubrication and dirt in the system as well as any flex in the press and those tolerances now become variables themselves.

As with many things, there are several ways to skin a cat. Several good, but different methods have been presented here. Each has advantages and disadvantages. One method would probably work better for a particular desired result than another. And vice versa.

The best solution is to work with the different methods of setting dies and find the one that provides you with the best results for your reloading and shooting objectives.

 

[Walkalong]

A couple of folks seem to be confused and think they are setting up the press. You set up your dies. The press is constant, except for stretching, which can affect the outcome a little. The differences in spring back from case to case show up as well. Those irregularities remain constant as well, but they are small compared to the adjustments on dies. We get things screwed up adjusting dies wrong.

 

[StandingTall]

If the equipment manufacturers cannot agree on setting up dies, do you really expect us peons to be able to agree?

The desired result is to resize brass exactly the same every time regardless of what the resizing objectives are (minimum resizing, optimum chamber fitting, fit any chamber, perfectly centered, etc.).

One trouble is we are dealing in a thousandth or two of variance. The tolerances in the various components of the press ram mechanism can add up to more than a thousandth or two. Add in lubrication and dirt in the system as well as any flex in the press and those tolerances now become variables themselves.

As with many things, there are several ways to skin a cat. Several good, but different methods have been presented here. Each has advantages and disadvantages. One method would probably work better for a particular desired result than another. And vice versa.

The best solution is to work with the different methods of setting dies and find the one that provides you with the best results for your reloading and shooting objectives.

Best response I've seen yet.

Before that, I was fixin' to take my Lee Challenger and throw it in the trash because it didn't "cam over". LOL

 

[bigedp51]

kingmt

I wish you would get over your attitude.

I'm not telling you to shimmer anything. I don't shim anything. It can be done if needed tho. If you have .010" clearance then a .002" shim on the deck isn't going to keep it from flooting. Shell holders are made to fit more then one case head while being close enough to work.

Right now I have 100 brand new unfired 30-06 cartridge cases that bind in a RCBS shell holder and do not spin let alone float in the shell holder. Then you tell me I have an attitude about the theoretical advice you have given out here but have never done, attempted or tried yourself.

I don't have an attitude but I do get heart burn and indigestion from reading some of these postings. :banghead:

It's amazing what you can find in the front of your reloading manuals and it isn't shimming the shell holder and four pages of "cam over".

 

[918v]

Right now I have 100 brand new unfired 30-06 cartridge cases that bind in a RCBS shell holder and do not spin let alone float in the shell holder.

Lots of brass with QC problems out there.

ATK changed the dimensions of some of their brass. Their newer 9mm and 45 ACP cases, for example, are a couple thousands bigger in diameter. Or maybe you have a POS shell holder.

 

[kingmt]

Wow. You just arn't able to grasp things. I'm not retypeing so you should go back & reread. I never suggested it only agreed it would work. I'm smart enough to be able to see it without doing it. Do you remember math when the teacher used oranges & apples?

 

[bigedp51]

kingmt

Wow. You just arn't able to grasp things. I'm not retypeing so you should go back & reread. I never suggested it only agreed it would work. I'm smart enough to be able to see it without doing it. Do you remember math when the teacher used oranges & apples?

Addition



Subtraction (.003 removed from top of shell holder)



Higher math



"Cam Over" calculator



Checking the math



No third grade apples or oranges here

 

[kingmt]

Nice tools. Now what does it have to do with the clearance in the shell holders? All I said was 10ths - 2ths is 8ths. Your shell would still be free to center. It should be rear that it would be needed.

I don't know what you mean by measuring cam over.

 

[fguffey]

“If the equipment manufacturers cannot agree on setting up dies, do you really expect us peons to be able to agree?”

cfullgraff, depends on the ego, I have helped with different concepts, methods and techniques, two days after helping, the person I helped has forgotten where he got the information, and that is in the real world.

I believe a few reloaders are capable of determining if a case has been sized before the ram is lowered, I believe a few reloaders are capable of determining the length of the chamber before firing, others insist on firing to form, I believe a few reloaders are capable of understand transfers and standards.



“manufacturers cannot agree” ? There are many reloaders out there that can not measure cam over, not knowing how is OK, not wanting to know identifies those that can not ask “HOW?” Then there are those that have thrown the term “cam over” around as though they understood the concept, then, someone comes along and says “I have 4 Rock Chuckers, not one of them will cam over, they lock up, jams up, cram up, but not one of them will cam over”, and I have said I am not a fan of abusing a press, there is no shortage of press here (as in where I am), and I have choices, moving to a ‘tuffer’ press is not an option (opinion), a presses inability to size a case is not a problem of the press, it is caused by bad habits “do you really expect us (form members) to be able to agree?” To answer that question I suggest you read through 4 pages of responses then make an attempt to determine agendas.

I have deflection gages, I have a strain gage, impossible concept for most reloadrs to understand, nothing sizes like a new, unfired case, then comes the once fired case, after that comes all the bad habits repeated over and over like fire your cases 5 times, first fire form, then neck size 4 times, then full length size???? back to minimum length and start over?????? “do you really expect us form members to be able to agree?” Again, go back and read through responses posted by members that have repeated the 6 time sizing and firing information and then explain how they will/would respond to someone that disagrees. Then drop down a couple of responses where Walkalong goes into ‘spring back’ as though that is an excuse for the failure of a presses ability to size a case when he knows working the case hardens the brass, firing is working, sizing is working, in the perfect world the press sizes new unfired brass, then it sizes once fired brass, somewhere after more work and firing the press is no longer able to restore the case to minimum length/full length sized. Again, I size cases for the chamber, I do not fire form, I form first then fire, after firing I eject fired cases, I then adjust the press, die and shell holder to size cases that fit my chamber. Jump back, snap back or pop back of the case does not lock me up, again, I have a rifle with .016 thousands head space? or explained in another way, the length of the chamber is longer by .016 thousands than a 30/06 I chamber from the face of the bolt to the shoulder of the chamber, fire form???? that is what most reloaders do, I find cases that are longer than the chamber in my M1917, not necessary to look far, the 280 Remington case is .041 thousands longer than the 30/06 from the case head to the case shoulder. Again, none of this stuff locks me up, I form cases for my M1917 by adjusting the die off the shell holder with the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage, I adjust the gap to .014 thousands, If the cases were not new or once fired, instead of being hard headed I would decrease the gap, back to the perfect case, I would not form 5 time fired cases by necking them up from 284 to .308 and I would not erase the shoulder and form it .027 thousands further back.

Again, I size cases with the die adjusted off the shell holder when necessary, again, I have no agenda, if the case needs to float and center it has already floated and centered before the case has a chance to take on the appearance of a bent/crooked case with run out.

Again, I have said not all shell holders are alike, I have said a few, very few, reloaders know the difference, and never has anyone ask “How are they different and or for what purpose”.



F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

Kingmt, I have 10 passes that cam over, none of the 10 is a Rock Chuckers, I have 4 Rock Chuckers, none of my Rock Chuckers will cam over, and that is what this is all about, it is not easy for someone to claim they have a Rock Chucker that cams over and according to the story their press cams over, again, I can modify a Rock Chucker to Cam over, but in doing so I have to add a stop to travel to prevent the linkage from jamming up, cramming up or locking up, but, WAIT! That is what it does as demonstrated with the video, with out a die and shell holder, that ram moved up to the limit of travel, and them the ram moved forward (remember this), my presses that cam over reach the top of it’s travel (top dead center) then stops? then continues to travel past top dead center, after reaching to top of travel the ram starts down because of the arch of travel by design. To measure the amount of cam over raise the ram until it contacts the shell holder, secure the die to the press with the lock ring, then raise the ram past top dead center, all one has to do is measure the gap between the shell holder and bottom of the die, the gap when measured with a feeler gage will indicate the amount of cam over.

Back to bump, I said my Rock Chuckers do not cam over, I said I had cam over presses, when adjusted to ‘Zero Load” my cam over presses bump twice, once on the way up and again once on the way down, If I adjust the ram on my cam over presses for die contact to the shell holder after top dead canter the amount of bump is the amount of sizing being done, meaning there is less strain on the press after top dead canter, then there is the fractional adjustments of a turn and wild guestimates of a turn in degrees absent from the reloaders vocabulary is verify and then standards along with transfers.

F. Guffey

 

[Walkalong]

fguffey

I size cases with the die adjusted off the shell holder when necessary,

Many of us do. So what?

If you would write in a clear manner instead of your cryptic style, leave out the insults, and the condescending attitude, you could probably pass some wisdom on from time to time.

Most everyone here wants to learn more and get better at the craft, but no one wants to be continually insulted and told they are ignorant and unable to learn.

 

[fguffey]

Walkalong, “Many of us do. So what?”

The question? How do you adjust the die off the shell holder? Put another way, Do you use the fractional guestimate of a turn or the wild guestimate in degrees? Again, I ask if you verify the adjustment when using the guestimate of a turn of the die measured in fractional or some kind of an adjustment using degrees? The last time I ask you that question you responded with “You know how I adjust my dies”, Walkalong, I do not know how you adjust your dies. Again, I skip the fractional turn of the die in fractional turns, I skip the part where most make adjustments in degrees, I do not make guesses when adjusting my dies, Few reloaders verify, to verify the reloader must have standards, they need transfers, another question. “How do you verify an adjustment?

Not possible for a reloader to answer the questions above if they insist on securing the lock ring to the die. I do not secure the lock ring to the die, I secure the die to the press with the lock ring, again Dillon lock rings do not have set screws, Lee lock rings do not have set screws, Dillon does have an integral nut on top of the die, WHY? that is another question.

Again, and I know you are tired of hearing about my M1917 with .016 thousands head space, to make a point, I ask you to tell me how I should adjust my dies when forming 280 Remington cases for the long chamber. I have heard the one where a reloader starts sizing and checking, sizing some more by screwing the die down more and sizing again, then checking to see if the case will chamber, another question. If the reloader knows the length of the chamber, why does he choose to guess when making adjustments? Again, I kinow the length of the chamber before I start sizing.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

Walkalong,

“but no one wants to be continually insulted and told they are ignorant and unable to learn” Go back and apply that statement to every post in this thread, then ask me if I believe you have two standards for different individuals.

I doubt very few will understand what I mean when I say I am very proud of Kingmt. in behavior he is worthy of my respect.

And this is about the point you go to the pop corn or ask ‘who kicked the nest’.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

Gloob, again, as you have noticed, after years of claiming their presses cam over it difficult for some to accept, it will not be long before everyone goes to believing they knew their cam-over press did not cam over.

For me it is easy to continue through like as a humble person, I am surrounded with those that are not, they insist on being the ‘discoverer’.

F. Guffey

And I said (remember this).

 

[cfullgraf]

Remember, you can always set a die so the press cannot cam over.

Remember, you can always set up dies so that the shell holder does not contact the die.

Remember, when the press ram is at "top dead center", small movements in the lever handle will result in imperceptible movement of the ram.

Individual opinions aside, if there was one method of setting up the dies that yielded the absolute best ammunition, everyone would be using that method.

Are we entering the area of the law of diminishing returns?

 

[GLOOB]

No offense, fguffey. But I agree with Walkalong that a lot of your posts seem cryptic.

I think I finally figured out what you mean by "cram over, jam over, wham over." Are you saying that the Rock Chucker moves laterally when it cams over? And that it cams over too much, to the point where you need to add your own stop so that it doesn't lock up at the top of of the stroke, like a vice grip pliers? Woohoo. After reading that description 3 times, I'm glad you finally explained it a little more plainly. You aren't from Luisiana, by chance?

My Breechlock isn't in the same boat as the Rock Chucker. It just stops at the top. No cam over, bam over, thank-you-ma'am over.

BTW, 14 presses, including 4 Rock Chuckers? If you don't like the Rock Chucker, then why so many?!??

 

[R.W.Dale]

Honestly fGuffy I skip reading your posts as I have yet to discern any comprehensible information from them. Its actually easier to figure out what you're saying by reading everyone else's replies to your "commentary".

You fit right in over on accurate reloading. Perhaps you and HOT-CORE can start a 223 and deer thread togeather.

posted via tapatalk using android.

 

[GT1]

Cryptic?

There is an understatement. I enjoy reading input, but when that guy posts I always say to myself 'story time!' and know I'll have to try to decode it, but I have given up.

Anyway, reading this thread so far makes me never want to reload rifle. It is made out to be too complicated.

 

[cfullgraf]

Anyway, reading this thread so far makes me never want to reload rifle. It is made out to be too complicated.

No, it is not complicated. Some of these folks are making mountains out of mole hills.

Excellent ammunition can be made by following the manufacturer's instruction and the printed reloading manuals. You may or may not see benefits from some of these obsessive compulsive practices. There are just too many variables to consider.

But hey, I got my idiosyncrasies as well.

 

[Striker Fired]

Can I have my 45 minutes back?