What's the big deal about Weatherby cartridges?
- Thread starter mljdeckard
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dubbleA
Member
mljdeckard said:
Yeah, you pretty much answered your own questions. Roy was a pioneer in high velocity cartridges. He started this in the 1940's by improving the 300H&H case, it took nearly 60 years for the competition to catch up.
You should be glad it didn't take 60 years to improve the internet connection you are reading this on when the old dial up is just as good.
There is no Weatherby advantage. It's simply another choice. You're over thinking this. The guy wanted a cool Weatherby round. /story
Kayaker 1960
Member
Weatherby
I have a Weatherby Mark V in good old 30-06. The action is nice and smooth. It's the most accurate rifle I've ever owned.
I personally don't have a need for a cartridge that cost $3.00 a pop and beats me up but it's a free country.
I have a Weatherby Mark V in good old 30-06. The action is nice and smooth. It's the most accurate rifle I've ever owned.
I personally don't have a need for a cartridge that cost $3.00 a pop and beats me up but it's a free country.
elktrout
Member
Guess I need to post a reply to this one also. I have a Mark V in 7mm Wby Mag with a 26 inch barrel. When I bought it in the early 90s, Remington was making brass for it, and I bought about 600 of their brass for the rifle. I later put the barreled action into an HS Precision synthetic stock shaped with the Weatherby hump back Monte Carlo style cheekpiece. Here is my experience with that gun, after approximately 1000 rounds through it (all handloads, no factory rounds):
1. Using available load data, I easily duplicated factory ballistics with 160 and 175 grain bullets. Best powder has been IMR7828. Super consistent.
2. Many, many 3 shot groups under 1 inch at 100 yards.
3. Brass does not flow near as much as standard bottle necked cartridges. I don't know if the double radius shoulder helps in this regard, but that has been my experience. I trim my 30-06 brass more than my 7mm Wby brass.
4. Recoil with the hump back stock is never in my face. I shot my son's Browning x-bolt 300 win mag and immediately noticed the whack in the face I got from the straight comb on its synthetic stock. My Weatherby never hits me in the face.
5. Even after all the loads I have fired in it over the past 20 years, it is still holding its velocity with my hand loads. I don't know if it helps, but the free boring may be a factor in this regard.
6. I have killed deer and elk with the round. It shoots pretty flat and hits hard when it arrives.
7. I have never had a mechanical failure with the gun. It always feeds, shoots, and extracts as it should.
8. The 60 degree bolt lift makes for very fast working of the action. You can get your whole hand in the motion without hitting the scope. This may not seem like a big deal most of the time, but do it with gloves on (hunting in cold weather) and you will see the difference.
9. The negatives on the gun are these: a. it is definitely heavy (take a look at the size of the action and bolt and you will know why) b. a 24 inch barrel is handier (yeah, sometimes 2 inches makes a difference) but the 26 incher gives top velocities, clean burns of the powder, and reduces recoil somewhat c. the gas vent holes on the side of the bolt are a nice safety feature but open the firing pin mechanism to dirt and moisture. the vents should be on the bottom of the bolt when it is closed d. the trigger is not my favorite. it works ok and I have gotten used to it but a rem 700 trigger has a better feel and break than the wby does.
Last but not least, when I bought mine, one thing that sold me on the gun was the strength and safety features of the action. These include the vented bolt (in case of primer rupture), the bank vault lockup (yes, it feels like closing a vault when the bolt is closed), the rear shroud on the bolt to protect you from hot gases if a primer ruptures, and the fact that the action was designed to withstand up to 200,000 psi chamber pressures.
There are trade-offs with any gun. All the safety features of the gun add up to a lot more weight to lug around. I think there are plenty of good alternatives to a Weatherby, but there are certainly a lot of positives to the design and performance of the gun.
Regards to everyone. Have a Happy New Year, and may we all get out shooting more this year.
1. Using available load data, I easily duplicated factory ballistics with 160 and 175 grain bullets. Best powder has been IMR7828. Super consistent.
2. Many, many 3 shot groups under 1 inch at 100 yards.
3. Brass does not flow near as much as standard bottle necked cartridges. I don't know if the double radius shoulder helps in this regard, but that has been my experience. I trim my 30-06 brass more than my 7mm Wby brass.
4. Recoil with the hump back stock is never in my face. I shot my son's Browning x-bolt 300 win mag and immediately noticed the whack in the face I got from the straight comb on its synthetic stock. My Weatherby never hits me in the face.
5. Even after all the loads I have fired in it over the past 20 years, it is still holding its velocity with my hand loads. I don't know if it helps, but the free boring may be a factor in this regard.
6. I have killed deer and elk with the round. It shoots pretty flat and hits hard when it arrives.
7. I have never had a mechanical failure with the gun. It always feeds, shoots, and extracts as it should.
8. The 60 degree bolt lift makes for very fast working of the action. You can get your whole hand in the motion without hitting the scope. This may not seem like a big deal most of the time, but do it with gloves on (hunting in cold weather) and you will see the difference.
9. The negatives on the gun are these: a. it is definitely heavy (take a look at the size of the action and bolt and you will know why) b. a 24 inch barrel is handier (yeah, sometimes 2 inches makes a difference) but the 26 incher gives top velocities, clean burns of the powder, and reduces recoil somewhat c. the gas vent holes on the side of the bolt are a nice safety feature but open the firing pin mechanism to dirt and moisture. the vents should be on the bottom of the bolt when it is closed d. the trigger is not my favorite. it works ok and I have gotten used to it but a rem 700 trigger has a better feel and break than the wby does.
Last but not least, when I bought mine, one thing that sold me on the gun was the strength and safety features of the action. These include the vented bolt (in case of primer rupture), the bank vault lockup (yes, it feels like closing a vault when the bolt is closed), the rear shroud on the bolt to protect you from hot gases if a primer ruptures, and the fact that the action was designed to withstand up to 200,000 psi chamber pressures.
There are trade-offs with any gun. All the safety features of the gun add up to a lot more weight to lug around. I think there are plenty of good alternatives to a Weatherby, but there are certainly a lot of positives to the design and performance of the gun.
Regards to everyone. Have a Happy New Year, and may we all get out shooting more this year.
Sav .250
Member
Different strokes for different folks...............
Corn-Picker
Member
I can't believe that with all the Weatherby fans that have posted no one has corrected the misperception that the Mark V bolt lift is 60 degrees -- it's 54 degrees
I don't own a Mauser based Weatherby or a Mark V, mine is "only" a Vanguard (series 2), but I like it a lot. Seems almost every other manufacturer makes American style stocks that feel like they were designed for open sites or euro style stocks that center the middle of the butt pad on your collar bone. Weatherby rifles on the other hand have the nice high comb and extreme drop at the butt to allow a nice cheek weld while keeping the butt pad where it should be in the meat of the shoulder pocket, and the Monte Carlo keeps the stock out of your face on recoil.
I don't own a Mauser based Weatherby or a Mark V, mine is "only" a Vanguard (series 2), but I like it a lot. Seems almost every other manufacturer makes American style stocks that feel like they were designed for open sites or euro style stocks that center the middle of the butt pad on your collar bone. Weatherby rifles on the other hand have the nice high comb and extreme drop at the butt to allow a nice cheek weld while keeping the butt pad where it should be in the meat of the shoulder pocket, and the Monte Carlo keeps the stock out of your face on recoil.
elktrout
Member
Corn-Picker, you are correct. It is 54 degrees, not 60. I was in error. Good catch. And, you are correct about the stock and how it keeps recoil away from the face.
DM~
Member
I can't believe that with all the Weatherby fans that have posted no one has corrected the misperception that the Mark V bolt lift is 60 degrees -- it's 54 degrees
I'm surprised that the Wby. fans here didn't know that RARELY are more than 4 or 5 of those locking lugs actually touching! In fact, usually it's only 3 or 4, and i've "lapped" more than a few of those actions to get all 9 lugs working. I guess that's why Wby. use to (and may still ?) offer "hand lapping" of the actions.
One time i bought a new Mark V in .340 mag... I was on it's "wringing it out" hunt, as it was going to be used as my "crawling through the willows" brown bear rifle. Anyway, i took a shot at a moose, and when i pulled the bolt back to chamber another round, the bolt came out of the action and almost flew out of my hand!! BROKEN bolt stop!
I repaired the rifle, and down the road it went!
DM
Peter M. Eick
Member
I can say as a big 25/06 fan, I have been looking at a 257 Weatherby as the ultimate step up from my 25/06's. Am I gaining much, no, but I have already committed to the 25 caliber, I am used to the idea of burning the barrel and so why not go to the natural limit?
I have not decided if I will buy a Weatherby rifle or just rechamber my Ruger #1. Probably the later as it will be cheaper to do.
I have not decided if I will buy a Weatherby rifle or just rechamber my Ruger #1. Probably the later as it will be cheaper to do.
I'm not sure I'd trust a local gunsmith to get that double-radius shoulder right. Consider a Vanguard S2 if you want to save money over a Mark V. You may give up 50fps with the 2" shorter barrel, but the S2 is more accurate and has a better trigger than the Mark V.
Blackrock
Member
I was guiding an Antelope hunt for a Wisconsin hunter who had bought a .300 Weatherby to hunt out west at the longer ranges than he was used to in the woods of Wisconsin.
This was in 1968 when the .300 Wby was the gold standard for long range accuracy and stopping power.
Came a cross a lone Antelope buck that was way out on a prairie ridge at 600 yards. I knew we couldn't get any closer to this cagey old goat so I set my hunter up in a solid prone position and told him to hold it about 4 inches over the bucks back. Well he fidgeted and fussed and finally touched it off and dropped that buck where it stood.
Nowadays a .300 WSM is capable of duplicating the ,300 Wby but it still ain't a Weatherby rifle.
This was in 1968 when the .300 Wby was the gold standard for long range accuracy and stopping power.
Came a cross a lone Antelope buck that was way out on a prairie ridge at 600 yards. I knew we couldn't get any closer to this cagey old goat so I set my hunter up in a solid prone position and told him to hold it about 4 inches over the bucks back. Well he fidgeted and fussed and finally touched it off and dropped that buck where it stood.
Nowadays a .300 WSM is capable of duplicating the ,300 Wby but it still ain't a Weatherby rifle.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Shame Canjar is no longer in business. That snapping-glass-rod trigger was the answer for my Mark V.
Arkansas Paul
Member
I'm surprised the .270 Weatherby isn't more popular with the shortage of .270 caliber rounds on the market. The 7mm and .300 have countless different cartridges chambered in them and the .270 only 3 that I know of. You'd think it would get attention just for that reason from the .277 fanboys.
When I first saw Weatherbys in the sixties, they were hands-down the flashiest and most appealing commercial rifles on the market. The marketing of the cartridge was successful, and Roy Weatherby filled a real market niche.
That said, I have never owned one and likely never will. The owner of the small SoCal gun store I frequented in the early sixties was contemptuous of the 9-lug bolt, and I have always wondered if 9 lugs really added anything to strength that was not accomplished by two lugs that were the equivalent in total size? It sounded good when Weatherby marketed it, but really, two lugs lapped in have every bit as much steel bearing the recoil as 9 -- and more if the 9 are not well lapped in. My then gunsmith said he had seen Weatherby rifles that had only 2-3 lugs with full bearing. That would not be reassuring, but I must say I never saw that with my own eyes; just repeating hearsay. I do know my first Mauser (a Santa Barbara) had lapped-in lugs with nearly total bearing when closed. I felt very confident they would hold the pressures I was exposing them to, and they have.
They are nice looking rifles that are used by wealthy hunters all over the globe, so they pretty much become a self-fulfilling prophecy regarding effectiveness.
That said, I have never owned one and likely never will. The owner of the small SoCal gun store I frequented in the early sixties was contemptuous of the 9-lug bolt, and I have always wondered if 9 lugs really added anything to strength that was not accomplished by two lugs that were the equivalent in total size? It sounded good when Weatherby marketed it, but really, two lugs lapped in have every bit as much steel bearing the recoil as 9 -- and more if the 9 are not well lapped in. My then gunsmith said he had seen Weatherby rifles that had only 2-3 lugs with full bearing. That would not be reassuring, but I must say I never saw that with my own eyes; just repeating hearsay. I do know my first Mauser (a Santa Barbara) had lapped-in lugs with nearly total bearing when closed. I felt very confident they would hold the pressures I was exposing them to, and they have.
They are nice looking rifles that are used by wealthy hunters all over the globe, so they pretty much become a self-fulfilling prophecy regarding effectiveness.
Nom de Forum
Member
First off, I have limited experience shooting a Mark V. I did have an friend with a .378 that I spent some time shooting. It was not pleasant. More unpleasant than shooting other heavy recoiling guns like a bolt action .50BMG, .458Win, .338-416 (what we use to call .338 Lapua), simultaneous firing of two 12ga 3"mag, and other thumbers. The weight and stock design did not work well for me in mitigating recoil, YMMV.
The issue with the lugs I believe to be true from hearing it over several decades from too many people who ought to know. If it is really desirable it would be more popular in similar rifles.
Nice looking rifles? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think the self-fulfilling prophecy comment is fairly accurate. I also wonder (somewhat doubt) if the expense of the Mark V and proprietary cartridges were not an issue if that would really make their use more common.
Kayaker 1960
Member
Weatherby
My Weatherby is one of the last to be built by Howa in Japan. I had a Browning Bolt Action 7mm Rem. Mag that I finally decided was too heavy and sold it. I was at Segal's in Oakland (1996) checking out a new Browning in 30-06 when the salesman pointed out the this Weatherby is on sale. The fit and finish were far superior to the Browning and it was only $60.00 more. SOLD!
It's got a plain black plastic stock, 22" barrel and flat blued finish. It's got the Mark V action and it's a 30-06. It's a sweet shooting gun, as I said before it's the most accurate rifle I've ever had.
My Weatherby is one of the last to be built by Howa in Japan. I had a Browning Bolt Action 7mm Rem. Mag that I finally decided was too heavy and sold it. I was at Segal's in Oakland (1996) checking out a new Browning in 30-06 when the salesman pointed out the this Weatherby is on sale. The fit and finish were far superior to the Browning and it was only $60.00 more. SOLD!
It's got a plain black plastic stock, 22" barrel and flat blued finish. It's got the Mark V action and it's a 30-06. It's a sweet shooting gun, as I said before it's the most accurate rifle I've ever had.
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Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
I put about 4,000 or so rounds through mine. Toted it across many a mile of hill and mountain. I guess it will always be "Ol' Pet", to me.
Last time I shot it, I put three 180-grain bullets into 0.4 MOA, so it has a bit of life left in it.
Last time I shot it, I put three 180-grain bullets into 0.4 MOA, so it has a bit of life left in it.
Nom de Forum
Member
I put about 4,000 or so rounds through mine. Toted it across many a mile of hill and mountain. I guess it will always be "Ol' Pet", to me.
Last time I shot it, I put three 180-grain bullets into 0.4 MOA, so it has a bit of life left in it.
I'd say you definitely have a keeper there and are in an enviable situation.
JTMcC
Member
That right there says it all. If it's your cup of tea then good on you, if it's not then there are a whole lotta choices. Variety, as they say, IS the spice.
If it's your buddy's choice then good shooting to him. Lot's of great response here, buy what makes you happy and shoot it with enthusiasm!
Like cars/trucks, women and rifles, it takes all kinds and if you like yours then good on ya, enjoy it daily, even if it doesn't suite my personal taste.
I do find it kind of quirky that these guys own a Weatherby rifle in 30-'06. Nice, but just a slight bit quirky : )
J
GooseGestapo
Member
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The original post had a number of errors or inaccuracies in it.
1. The Weatherby ballistics are easily matched and exceeded with currently available components. I regularily see 3,600fps+ from my 24" bbl Vanguard in .257wbymag. w/100gr bullets. However, it does require using Norma brass, Federal 215 or Winchester LMR primers, and either H4831, IMR7828, or Reloader25. Most of the factory ammo is loaded with Norma MRP powder. Not a real secret.
2. The ammo has generally been loaded by Norma for Weatherby. Superior components and quality manufacture with Hornady bullets. Result; consistent, superior performance in the field.
3. Weatherby marketed and sold the rifles and ammo as a "system", with carefully and precisely manufactured ammo. Not the "regular gas" in a Chevy Malibu. More like racing fuel in a race prepped Corvett or Viper.
4. The double "ogee" or "radius" shoulder and neck was "unique" but had the effect of the 30deg-45deg neck of the "Ackley Improved" cases which indeed does limit case stretch.
5. The "free-bore" was to allow the bullet a longer "jump" to the lands to ease the pressure rise on the ammo loaded to the upper limits of allowable pressures with available powders/primers of the day (late '40's to mid '60's).
Only with the advent of better testing and materials were other cartridges such as the RUM's (I have one of those too, a Savage M110 in .300RUM, which oddly enough, Savage chose to use the "Weatherby free-bore" throat, rather than the much shorter Remington throat). Even with the ~15% increase in case capacity over the .300wby, it only gets about 80-120fps gain over the Weatherby. Ole Roy actually kinda knew what he was doing....
He never really intended to appeal to the mass market, but those well "heeled" enough to be willing to spend the extra $$$$ for the very best money could buy without becoming "purests" and "hobbyist" seeking the very last bit of performance just for performance sake. Exactly the audience he captured. ie: astronauts, politicians (as in Shah of Iran, King of Saudi Arabia), movie stars (ie: Roy Rodgers), ect. ect. ect.
1. The Weatherby ballistics are easily matched and exceeded with currently available components. I regularily see 3,600fps+ from my 24" bbl Vanguard in .257wbymag. w/100gr bullets. However, it does require using Norma brass, Federal 215 or Winchester LMR primers, and either H4831, IMR7828, or Reloader25. Most of the factory ammo is loaded with Norma MRP powder. Not a real secret.
2. The ammo has generally been loaded by Norma for Weatherby. Superior components and quality manufacture with Hornady bullets. Result; consistent, superior performance in the field.
3. Weatherby marketed and sold the rifles and ammo as a "system", with carefully and precisely manufactured ammo. Not the "regular gas" in a Chevy Malibu. More like racing fuel in a race prepped Corvett or Viper.
4. The double "ogee" or "radius" shoulder and neck was "unique" but had the effect of the 30deg-45deg neck of the "Ackley Improved" cases which indeed does limit case stretch.
5. The "free-bore" was to allow the bullet a longer "jump" to the lands to ease the pressure rise on the ammo loaded to the upper limits of allowable pressures with available powders/primers of the day (late '40's to mid '60's).
Only with the advent of better testing and materials were other cartridges such as the RUM's (I have one of those too, a Savage M110 in .300RUM, which oddly enough, Savage chose to use the "Weatherby free-bore" throat, rather than the much shorter Remington throat). Even with the ~15% increase in case capacity over the .300wby, it only gets about 80-120fps gain over the Weatherby. Ole Roy actually kinda knew what he was doing....
He never really intended to appeal to the mass market, but those well "heeled" enough to be willing to spend the extra $$$$ for the very best money could buy without becoming "purests" and "hobbyist" seeking the very last bit of performance just for performance sake. Exactly the audience he captured. ie: astronauts, politicians (as in Shah of Iran, King of Saudi Arabia), movie stars (ie: Roy Rodgers), ect. ect. ect.
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Thanks. I would've absolutely loved Sako L61/L691 magnum action but couldn't find a decent one for sale when I started the project. It was a coin toss between Sako 78/85 and Mark V, and a rare(ish) all-matte, new old stock barreled Weatherby action fell in my lap for a fraction of the price I expected to pay for one. That left enough room in my budget to contact Wes at Accurate Innovations and have an all-out custom stock built for it.
I love my old .460 Mark V Deluxe (unless I have to shoot it
); the .375 is externally identical, except that it's all matte/satin and has all AI high-tech bells and whistles (aluminum bedding, mercury recoil reducer, Decelerator pad etc.) built in a traditional high-grade walnut stock.I know... having a Mark V in a non-Weatherby caliber is bordering on blasphemy. I still love mine, it shoots ~MOA with factory ammo, felt recoil is incredibly tame and AI alu bedding/frame eliminates POI changes normally caused by temperature and humidity. Some day I might have another one built in .300Wby, when I've saved enough cash for the rifle AND a Marco Polo argali hunt to use it on...
Nom de Forum
Member
I agree "Ole Roy actually kinda knew what he was doing". You just listed a big part of what he knew that I alluded to in my first post with my comment about marketing. The technology of the cartridges and rifles was definitely at the leading edge at the time of introduction, but realistic performance was less than the marketing hype would have prospective buyers believe.
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