What's the biggest animal a 308 will kill? Elk?

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Having done some ballistic homework, I'm fairly happy with my ownership of the 308 caliber.

Now I guess the follow up question then becomes; what's the biggest thing a 308 will kill (humanely)?

Is Elk too big?
 
A .308 should work on an Elk, with high energy/light magnum 165gr loads. Know where to hit them and keep shots under 200yds. It probably can be done at 300 but I feel thats pushing it.
As for bigger animals, I wouldn't take it to Alaska for Grizzley bear.

Cajun
 
Maybe a better question would be whether the .308 can put a bullet into an elk's neck and break the spine; I'd say yes. Can the .308 put a bullet into the heart/lung area and it be a kill shot? I'd say yes.

Other better questions would have to do with your own abilities as a marksman, and with your judgement as to whether or not to take a shot at all, no matter the cartridge.

Having an animal fold up and be Dead Right There is primarily a matter of shot placement. A gut shot with a .338 or a .375 won't do that. A neck shot with a .243 most likely will.

$0.02,

Art
 
For christmas sake. Take a look at 30-30 ballistics, and then remember that it is probable that more elk have been taken with a 30-30 than any other caliber and probably more than have been taken with all the magnum cartridges combined. Now take and compare the ballistics of a 30-30 to the 308, BIG difference. The 308 is a fargin' CANNON compared to what is needed to take elk quickly and humanely. If you can take your $9.95 box of Winchester 150 grain power points and put the bullet into the heart or lungs of an elk within 300 yards of your position it will DIE within 100 yards of where it stood when you shot it. The difference between that shot with the 308 and the same shot with a 340 Weatherby magnum? NOTHING. Put the bullet where it goes and there is no difference in the result. The 308 is a FINE elk rifle as is the 270, 280, 30-06, 284, 7x57, 8x57 and on and on. You don't need some cannon magnum to hunt elk and kill them as humanely as is possible. Shot placement is everything, if you can't put the bullet where it needs to go don't shoot. Stepping up to a 338 or a 340 buys a small margin of error in shot placement but it is not as big as most people think. Add to that the number of people who can actually handle the recoil of a 338 and up is very small and you come to the conclusion that the 30-06 class of cartridge, like the 308, is the best choice for all but a few people.

Pick a heavy for caliber bullet and make sure you can place it accurately. 180 grains for 30 cal is best in normal ammunition, 165's in premium loadings also work well. I have seen a few elk shot with a 308 using 180 Winchester Silvertips and it was very impressive, two holes and very dead elk. What more can you ask for?
 
YES!!!!!!!!

The .308 win makes a GREAT elk round. My favorite load is the 180gr Nosler PT in the federal HE loading. A 180gr bullet at 2700+fps.

Not only that but the .308 makes such a cute light weight mountain rifle. I love the .308 and have two of them. One in a Savage 99 (my favorite saddle gun in elk country) the other is a Styer scout.

Not only do I like the.308 on elk I recomend it. with the right bullets it's every bit as efective as a .300mag out to 300yds.

Now you'll hear me praise other rounds as well. I love the .375H&H but I'm here to tell you that is only a personal preferance thing with me insofar as I just like the .375.

A 180 gr .308 through the lungs will kill an elk just as dead as a .270gr .375 I promise you.

I've killed a goodly number of African plains game with a .308win and they all dies quite nicely. As have all the elk that I've shot with them. A good friend of mine did his Eland with a little ole .308 a couple of years ago. It died. And I wouldn't hesitate to use it on Moose.
 
Lots of buddies of mine have carried the .308 as an Elk rifle.. and they mostly carried carbine length rifles.. Winchester 88's, Remington 742's, etc. before I purchased my Savage 30-06 I was looking carefully at the Remingtom model 7 as the rifle to replace my 30-30. The biggest drawback of the .308 is the lackof AUTO loading rifles to chamber and fire the heavyweight 30's ala to 220gr roundnose. (like if one wanted to hunt moose)

Nothing at all wrong with a 308.
 
H&H, great ending quote my friend.
IIRC, they (being gunwriters) used to tout the 30-40 Krag as a great Wapiti round, and the Canadians love the ol' .303 Limey round for Elk and Moose. Both of those rounds have less energy, and in the old days, much less choice in bullets. So why not the .308?

Of course, when I went Elk hunting, the guys on the hunt with me gave me considerable crap about carrying the weakling .35 Whelen, but the locals thought it (and the .338-06) were the perfect elk rounds, so does the .358 Winchester rank higher?

Just call me Mr. Tangent
 
I'm a "Bullet placement above all else" type of guy..

But for example, even if I place a .22LR in the lungs of a moose, it ain't going down.. not for like a few hours.. and a .22LR won't even break the hide of some animals...

My friend shoots 8mm mausers, and I think it's a tad bit more stout than the 308, but not by much.

Thanks H&H, I just wanted some first hand reassurance that Elk is not too big if you do your part...
 
Can we PLEASE stop bandying about Bell as an endorsement for foolish behaviour?

1. Bell only took head shots.

2. Sometimes the head shots DID NOT WORK.

3. Bell eventually moved to the 318 Westley Richards. (250 grain Soft Nose Bullet or Solid; Muzzle Velocity 2400 ft/sec. )

People have taken some of the biggest brown bears in the world with .22 LR.

They were damn lucky. I remember one story of an Inuit lady and a male friend that were hunting small game, some years ago. A very large brown bear began following them. They tried to evade, and eventually, the lady shot the brown in the head.

He fell. She then shot him another 10 or 11 times in the head as he lay, IIRC. This bear was the world record for some years.

Can it be done? Yes. Can it be done wisely? Until YOU are willing to go out in the wilds and face a behemoth with a dinky deer round, I would advise not touting it in endorsement of anything. Even then, all that will be proven, is that fate was merciful to you.

John
 
Large bear?

WhythehellRUalwayspostingenormousblastersifa.30isenuffJohn
 
For the record, I never bandy'ed Bell about, I bandy'ed Selous.:rolleyes:

These "Is X- caliber OK for Y-species " questions always get a touch ugly, like we were arguing about the effectivness of buckshot or something.
Oh, crap, I mentioned buckshot...:cuss:

Hey, just because someone references that a guy used a smallish gun in the past doesn't mean we're all lining up to go after a dagga boy with a .243. (a Rem 700 at that)
The neaderthals used spears and rockslings and such, but I'm not trying to go that route, just saying they used 'em once.:banghead:
 
Back on topic:

Just this morning I had a conversation with my dad (76 years old, 35 some elk and countless deer under his belt) about this.

His Granddad, my great-grandfather, Marion Grant Ashcraft, used a Winchester 1895, 30-40 Krag for elk. His rifle was considered the "BIG" rifle in camp. Everybody else used a 30-30. Nobody lost game because they didn't have enough gun. Of course, the American rifleman of the 1930's-1940's was a different breed than many of today's rifleman.

Even more absurd, my grandma always went hunting with the men. When she wasn't working around camp (that's what women did back then), she hunted close around camp with a .250 Savage, took her share too.

My granddad broke the mold in the 1940's when he bought a "new-fangled" Winchester Model 70 in .270 Win. caliber.

A new era had begun. :)
 
For the record, I never bandy'ed Bell about, I bandy'ed Selous.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, I must have missed the Selous reference in this thread.

Since the thread title mentions .308, perhaps we are safe...one can hope.

I'm a big fan of the .35 Whelen for just about all North American game. Wouldn't be my first choice on Cape Buff, though, nor my first choice on close bears. :)
 
Ok this is off subject but as long as we are talking Bell. Here are a few facts that Bell quoters always fail to mention.

By Bells own admission the first full charge Bell faced from an elephant nearly killed him. His tracker was in fact killed in that incident. And when he faced his second charge in thick cover he did so with a .416 Rigby in his hands. While Bell perfered the 7mm he always carried a .450/400 and later the .416 while following up in thick cover.

This is not ment to trash anyone or to cast dispersions. Just a little known yet true fact about Bell and common sense while hunting dangerous game.:)

Wildalaska put me on his ignore list after I disagreed with him about .308's on brown bears and then accused me of having no hunting experience because I like a little more on big bears. So I think his statement is probably aimed at getting my goat.

H&Hneverbeenagunstorecommandohunter.
 
WA, if you just say "people use it", it sounds like an endorsement. Glad to see that you don't agree. Everyone should take most internet advice with some salt, but still, I'd hate to suggest something that may well get someone killed.
WildilistentocaliberdebatesalldaylongAlaska
Click to expand...

Fair enough. :)

OH- to get back to the original question- I think a heavy, solidly constructed .308 round, well placed, will work fine for elk, though I'd like an even heavier bullet for moose. Used a .308 PSS loaded with a 165 grain SXT to drop a deer Jan 2, believe it was. Performance led me to believe that round would have gone through AT LEAST another deer, and maybe two.
 
Shirley, I was kinda referring to the ".308 for Brown Bear and such" thread, where you made comment to my "Selous used a 6.5 on elephant" statement, and in your reply, you mentioned Bell and his use of smallbores.
On the other hand...
I think the .35 Whelen is maybe the best all around medium-to-big game cartridge for northern North America. Packs a good hard punch, not too hard on the shooter or the gun, shoots flat enough for a majority of shots taken above the Mason-Dixon Line.
But if I were restricted to short-action only, it'd be a .308.
 
WA, if you just say "people use it", it sounds like an endorsement
Click to expand...

On the other hand J, I know at least one Kodiak Guide that uses 06 (functionally equivalent to the 308)...

And of course need we mention the Natives who routinely shoot Polar Bears with 243.

Next time one of the Guides stops by, Ill ask him how they feel about clients using 308 on bear. I suspect that they might say it depened on how good a shot the client is..

WildbutitsallacademicanywayAlaska
 
Considering the first half of the 20th century, and before we get to rhapsodizing about the good ol' daze and how men wuz men and the women wuz glad of it and everybody killed monster elk with a thutty-thutty and shot out gnats' eyes at a gazillion yards:

In many hunting areas the animals were not as wary, and often there were just flatout more critters. By and large, in those "old days" with the U.S. population of less than half what it is now, there was less hunting pressure in the regulated areas. Hunting skills may have allowed closer approaches, but I'm not even sure of that. At any rate, most shots were at closer range due to the known limits of the .30-30 and the Krag. With more animals, "If not today, then tomorrow." wasn't an uncommon attitude.

It is often mentioned that the primary reason for the popularity of such as the 7mm Rem Mag was the ability to play Ma Bell. Fewer and more wary elk played an important role in the development and use of such cartridges.

And so it's back to the usual deal: If you're a patient sitter or a skilled stalker, and you're a good marksman, it's not that hard to take large animals with relatively "small" cartridges.

:), Art
 
HuH !!!

First one of the best elk hunters I know packs a Belgium BLR in .308, I have seen him only not fill his tags once in 10 years, and that was after a bad winterkill. Must work for him.

Comment on a .308 and short action, my choice would be the ever unpopular .358, 9x57, 9.3x57 and 375x57 on big critters I subscibe to Elmer Keith theories. None of these would be my first pick for a big brown in a willow thicket.

Somewhere buried in my reloading room I have a study and report done by the U.S. Forest Service on the effective cartridges against bears. It was given to me by a friend who worked as a surveyor in coastal Alaska. Seems the Forest Circus was having problems with brown (grizzly) bears and particularly survey teams. A small problem of multiple engagements with the teams that the human side usually lost. Got to be a civil servants nightmare, liability, insurance, survivors benefits, neglegence, etc. So they proceded to spend our tax dollars to figure out what was effective on stopping a bear. They pretty much went through the gambit of readily available hardware and cartridges, ( there is none more cautious or thorough than a civil servant covering his ???).

The findings were somewhat as expected in some cases, and big suprises on others. The minimum recommended cartridge was a 30-06 with 200gr bullets, big suprise ( to me anyway ) was a 12 guage shotgun with slugs ( buckshot sucked ) and the 3" mags are what they recommended. The other tested guns were 458 winchester, Weatherbies Magnums, 338 mag, 30 Mags, 45-70 and 375 H&H. The Weatherby magnums overpenetrated and were less effective. The 458 didn't do bad but didn't fare as well as I had thought it might. The most effective ( at least in our governments eyes ) was a 375 H&H mag, with 300gr bullets, with the barrel sawed off to 18". Longer barrels than that were deamed to difficult to wield rapidly in thick timber and brush ( seems that is one of the things they really disliked about the Weatherby rifles). Remember this was done for close in encounters of the personal kind. They wanted to stop a charging bear at 10 ft dead.

I believe in all good traditions of our most esteemed civil servents there now is a policy in place ( in Washington ? who knows ), where survey teams have one member of the survey team is issued a sawed of 375 which he cares at all times in bear country. I think there standard rules of engagement are they are to shoot any bears closer than 15 yds. ( I need to find that article cause I want to check that range again as it has been several years ).

If it works for them who am I to second guess my government tax dollars at work.

Comment on 243 against polar bears. Yea I been to Barrow and the locals seem to prefer the 243 for everything. But they do some really stupid things on a regular basis, I wouldn't call heading of across 35+ miles of ice blind drunk in -50 degree weather real smart, yet that was a Darwin award during my time there. They hunt the bears usually with their dogs, and almost always have much greater distance between them and the bear, than a typical encounter with a coastal brown.

Edited: I must be drinkng too much caffiene and reading Kafka
 
They hunt the bears usually with their dogs, and almost always have much greater distance between them and the bear, than a typical encounter with a coastal brown.
Click to expand...

Yeah I've mentioned that before on another guns&bears thread. But that is not really what this thread is about.

PS my .375H&H is shaved to 20" just for that reason....

What you ment to say I'm sure is that buckshot "sucked" the air out of the surrounding 10 square miles and killed all living beings. therefore was deemed to dangerous for human consumption.:D

(I edited this because I had made a childish and stupid remark towards another member. I apologize to everyone on this board)

H&Hunter
 
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Remember they were evaluating performance at very close range, and a one shot quick kill was all they were looking for. Sucked is a poor chioce of words on my part, but it was one of the worst performers in the test. It shotguns in general were nowhere near being the best performers. These were all wieghted neatly with performance percentages. Other honorable mentions were the 45-70, a 50 Alaskan, and a 338 mag. The 45-70 was hurt by available off the shelf ammuniton and bullet selection, the 444 Marlin suffered the same fate.

A point to remember was if they couldn't buy it, it wasn't evaluated. Wasn't there a fellow in Coopers Ferry ( Landing) that developed the 50 Alaskan? seems he used a sawed off Model 71 Winchester, will a 50 cal barrel. I think he took 50 Cal machine guns bullets cut them off and loaded them backwards so the boatailed end was out. Must be where they got the one they tested, but wasn't selected cause it wasn't common enough.

I also seem to remember the final rifle selection was the Interarms Mark X, chopped of with some fiddle on the iron sights, NO SCOPE.
 
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