REAPER4206969
Member
That's why they've become so crappy. Kimber's motto is "Move the steel!"
Whats the deal with Kimber?
- Thread starter matai
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smoothdraw
Member
I have a couple of Kimber and like them
I think they are being trashed a lot because when they are new they are ultra tight so a lot of problems in the beginning of your kimber experience. They use MIM parts more than any other 1911 manufacturers. MIM parts are not necessarily bad but inferior quality parts compared to cast or forged. Kimbers are relative expensive for the parts that they use. I'll keep my tuned kimbers but will not buy one anymore. There's a lot more better handguns for the price you'll be paying for a Kimber. But if you get the Kimbers in discounted prices then they are good guns. Look at the Colt and Dan Wesson 1st as these 2 weapons are at the pricepoint of Kimbers and for me they are better guns for the money. But if you already have a Kimber then keep them because they are accurate and reliable. They are not anymore the best value gun like before though. I will give that best value title to a Dan Wesson, RIA GI and Taurus.
I think they are being trashed a lot because when they are new they are ultra tight so a lot of problems in the beginning of your kimber experience. They use MIM parts more than any other 1911 manufacturers. MIM parts are not necessarily bad but inferior quality parts compared to cast or forged. Kimbers are relative expensive for the parts that they use. I'll keep my tuned kimbers but will not buy one anymore. There's a lot more better handguns for the price you'll be paying for a Kimber. But if you get the Kimbers in discounted prices then they are good guns. Look at the Colt and Dan Wesson 1st as these 2 weapons are at the pricepoint of Kimbers and for me they are better guns for the money. But if you already have a Kimber then keep them because they are accurate and reliable. They are not anymore the best value gun like before though. I will give that best value title to a Dan Wesson, RIA GI and Taurus.
smoothdraw
Member
Toyota makes Camry with good parts relative to the industry. Kimber makes Kimber 1911's with parts relatively poor compared to its industry. A lot of people buy Camry because it is a value car. A lot of people buy Kimber because it is nice to the eye and your gunstore have a lot of them.
gglass
Member
Why does everyone seem to miss the point here? Kimber's reputation is not built on whether they make 1911's and in what quantities. It is based on one thing only... Customer Service. They generally regarded as having poor customer service by a large percentage of people who have needed that customer service.
The numbers being shown are still drastically skewed by how many firearms a company has produced outside the U.S. Those numbers do NOT show up in the provided figures. Does anyone believe that a company like Springfield is not in the top 5 or 10 manufacturers in total shipments in 2007? I personally hate the fact that Springfield imports a vast majority of what it sells, but they are a company known for outstanding customer service. Smith & Wesson is a company that outsells them all, and they too are also known for outstanding customer service. Ruger has even had a couple of new product hiccups of late, yet they are known for outstanding customer service.
The question of who produces the most of anything is NOT the issue. The issue is how the company handles the customer when service is needed. Kimber is generally regarded poorly in this category and thus that is how people perceive them.
- Smith & Wesson
- Sturm, Ruger & Co.
- SIG SAUER
- Kel-Tec CNC
- Beretta
- Beemiller
- Glock
- Kimber Mfg.
- Heritage Mfg.
- Cobra Ent.
Where is Springfield in the above list of the top handgun manufacturers? Don't they ship boatloads of XD's and 1911's? Sure they do, but a vast majority those firearms are imported and thus not counted. It is also a number that Springfield does not want to emphasize because it could damage their reputation as a top U.S. handgun manufacturer.
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According to the logic some use, it was a poor choice as Ford sells more trucks. I was as shocked as you.
I've handled a lot of Kimbers and never found one that was "ultra tight." Compared to a few others, Kimber fitting sits somewhere in the middle.
Regardless, most of the problems I've experienced or read of should have been resolved BEFORE leaving the shop.
SSN Vet
Member
When you drop a bill on a new firearm you (rightfully so) have a higher expectation of satisfaction with your purchase?
My limited experience is that the customer wants to feel good about their purchase and the brand that they have selected. So if they have a problem and the manufacturers Customer Service turns a back flip to make good on it, the customer will be happy. As far as brand loyalty goes... it may be even higher than if there was no defect in the first place, because now the customer knows "they have great CS" and feels as if they've entered into a kind of relation ship with the manufacturer.
But if the CS is lame, makes excuses, charges return shipping, takes forever, is dishonest, fails to correct the problem, etc.... The manufacturer has blown it big time. And the resentment felt by the customer will be magnified greatly because of the premium price they paid.
That's my take on it....
I'm the Engineering Manager at a med. sized manufacturing company and Quality Manager is a collateral duty for me. By modern standards, we have a pretty week quality program. We don't do any statistical process control and the owners have zero interest in going ISO 9001. In fact, the owner/president once told me "it's cheaper to pick it up and rework it, than it is to get it right the first time".
But, surprisingly, our defect rates are pretty low... but it's all a subjective analysis, as we don't measure them well. But when I go six months without cutting a single RMA, and we run hundreds of orders a week in a fast paced job shop environment, I feel like I can say we're doing a pretty good job.
But here's the trick..
1. Our pricing is very competitive. Not the lowest in our marketplace, but far from the highest.
and
2. We have awesome customer service! If we screw up, we will turn back flips, eat shipping cost, and repair or replace product ASAP, at no cost.
The result....
Our customers love us and are very loyal. The company is doing very well and is very profitable.
We just hired 15 new full time employees (about a 12% increase in our head count).
How many of you can tell me your company just did that?
My limited experience is that the customer wants to feel good about their purchase and the brand that they have selected. So if they have a problem and the manufacturers Customer Service turns a back flip to make good on it, the customer will be happy. As far as brand loyalty goes... it may be even higher than if there was no defect in the first place, because now the customer knows "they have great CS" and feels as if they've entered into a kind of relation ship with the manufacturer.
But if the CS is lame, makes excuses, charges return shipping, takes forever, is dishonest, fails to correct the problem, etc.... The manufacturer has blown it big time. And the resentment felt by the customer will be magnified greatly because of the premium price they paid.
That's my take on it....
I'm the Engineering Manager at a med. sized manufacturing company and Quality Manager is a collateral duty for me. By modern standards, we have a pretty week quality program. We don't do any statistical process control and the owners have zero interest in going ISO 9001. In fact, the owner/president once told me "it's cheaper to pick it up and rework it, than it is to get it right the first time".
But, surprisingly, our defect rates are pretty low... but it's all a subjective analysis, as we don't measure them well. But when I go six months without cutting a single RMA, and we run hundreds of orders a week in a fast paced job shop environment, I feel like I can say we're doing a pretty good job.
But here's the trick..
1. Our pricing is very competitive. Not the lowest in our marketplace, but far from the highest.
and
2. We have awesome customer service! If we screw up, we will turn back flips, eat shipping cost, and repair or replace product ASAP, at no cost.
The result....
Our customers love us and are very loyal. The company is doing very well and is very profitable.
We just hired 15 new full time employees (about a 12% increase in our head count).
How many of you can tell me your company just did that?
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Full Metal Jacket
member
yep, that and they offer WAY too many models with too many options. they should make a few quality models, and focus on those, like springfield armory does...
REAPER4206969
Member
Kimber, like SIG has become a fashion company instead of a small arms company.
REAPER4206969
Member
JohnBT
Member
"Where is Springfield in the above list of the top handgun manufacturers?"
Those are the U.S. totals for guns made in the U.S. No more, no less. They didn't make the list. Don't take it personally.
The one time I needed a nut for the adjustable sight on my Stainless Gold Match, well, Kimber sent me an entire new rear sight. So I had to install it instead of just staking a new nut on a windage screw. Boo-hoo, it's no fair, they made me work. But that was many years ago, so things may have changed.
John
Those are the U.S. totals for guns made in the U.S. No more, no less. They didn't make the list. Don't take it personally.
The one time I needed a nut for the adjustable sight on my Stainless Gold Match, well, Kimber sent me an entire new rear sight. So I had to install it instead of just staking a new nut on a windage screw. Boo-hoo, it's no fair, they made me work.
But that was many years ago, so things may have changed.John
JohnBT
Member
"SIG has become a fashion company instead of a small arms company"
Shot one of the X-5 guns yet? They still make ultra high quality guns. I don't know about their everyday guns, but the one X-5 I own is about as good as anything I've ever shot and better than most. There was this one P210 I borrowed once, but that's why the 210 is famous.
John
Shot one of the X-5 guns yet? They still make ultra high quality guns. I don't know about their everyday guns, but the one X-5 I own is about as good as anything I've ever shot and better than most. There was this one P210 I borrowed once, but that's why the 210 is famous.
John
Full Metal Jacket
member
springfield armory doesn't produce nearly as many 1911's as kimber each year. they prefer to focus properly on each one, instead of spitting them out on a conveyer belt lol
Kingofthehill
Member
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YUP... just because dealers Pimp them doesn't mean they are great guns... they just make more off them
I have Springfields, Dan Wessons, Kimbers, a Charles daily, 1 Ed brown and a Nighthawk.
Kimbers IMO look very cool, they have a good "Bling" factor... Like the Raptor. But how are you going to charge $1000+ for a gun with a Plastic main spring housing?... what idiot made that choice... way to save $15 and leave yourself open for mocking with your hit it and quit it sales pitch.
JOe
gglass
Member
I should type a little slower so that you can understand. Springfield is not on the list because they are importing their firearms into the U.S. and not manufacturing them here. Is that simple enough? The numbers do NOT show Springfield's sales totals in comparison to the others because they are produced outside of the U.S. by other manufacturers.
You also seem to think that I have a dog in this fight... I don't. I am simply putting things into perspective on the claim that Kimber pumps out soooo many handguns that they will have a higher total number of dissatisfied customers compared to the low sales numbers of other manufacturers. Nothing could be further from the truth. Could you or anyone else produce a sales number for Springfield branded pistols in the U.S.? Not unless Springfield themselves gave it to you. Without that figure, you cannot claim that Kimber sells many times more units.
I do not like Kimber because they had poor customer service when I needed them. I do not like Springfield Armory for importing so many handguns and not putting more Americans to work. (I currently own 3 SA 1911's, but I bought two of them used so as not to reward SA for using foreign labor. The other was finished her in the states)
Give me a company that builds their product here in the states and also has great customer service... That is the dog I want in this fight.
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JohnBT
Member
"I should type a little slower for you it seems."
Okay, you could use the extra time to think things through. Or read what I wrote.
"I do not like Kimber because they had poor customer service when I needed them. I do not like Springfield Armory for importing so many handguns and not putting more Americans to work."
Dang, you don't like Kimber, you don't like Springfield and you don't like me. Time for an attitude adjustment?
"You also seem to think that I have a dog in this fight"
You mean other than that time Kimber mistreated you and you're still trying to get even with them? Other than that dog?
John
Okay, you could use the extra time to think things through. Or read what I wrote.
"I do not like Kimber because they had poor customer service when I needed them. I do not like Springfield Armory for importing so many handguns and not putting more Americans to work."
Dang, you don't like Kimber, you don't like Springfield and you don't like me. Time for an attitude adjustment?
"You also seem to think that I have a dog in this fight"
You mean other than that time Kimber mistreated you and you're still trying to get even with them? Other than that dog?
John
matai
Member
Do you guys think the Kimbers customer service is still bad?
REAPER4206969
Member
They damn well better for $2,925.00
http://www.sigsauer.com/Products/ShowCatalogProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=38&productid=88
The P210 is not representative of current SIGs.
kwelz
Member
Bad finish, MIM parts, bad tolerances, bad machining, I could go on.
Just because they have a great marketing team doesn't mean the guns are that great. I have had good Kimbers. I have also seen some real crap from them. And even the good ones were not near as nice as the equivalent SA or STI guns.
I used to be a distributor for Kimber. Was one very good terms with them. I had a problem with a gun I personally purchased. My main point of contact was great as always. But when I got to CS, even with them knowing who I was they were complete jerks. Rude on the phone, told me to put 500 or so rounds through it before I complained. Of course the problem was that the throat on the barrel was cut at about the 3:30 - 4o'clock point, the finish was rubbing off in my hand and the slide acted like it had sand in it.
I was told CLP was not good lube and I should only use Rem Oil and the gun just needed to be broken in.
Yeah. If this is how they treat a distributor I hate to think of how they were going to treat normal customers that had a problem.
Full Metal Jacket
member
MachIVshooter
Member
Springfield doesn't produce ANY 1911's each year. They IMPORT a bunch, though. And they have their problems, too.
On that note, having read your other posts here, I wonder if you're even old enough to own a firearm. You come across as being 18-ish.
Full Metal Jacket
member
lets not rehash this old argument.
some are completed in brazil, but most are finished in IL.
MachIVshooter
Member
That's like saying Chevrolet "produced" a car when they slap a couple of badges on a Suzuki or Isuzu after it rolls of the ocean freighter and then do dealer prep before final sale.
You think Cimarron guns are produced in America because they engrave their name on them after they get them from Uberti, Pedersoli or Polytech?
Springfield 1911's are made in Brazil, period. I don't care if the two-percent-of-total TGO's have extensive fitting and finishing done in Geneseo. Still imports.
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