What's the latest trend in 9mm self-defense ammo?

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fxvr5 said:
Gel data of the Lehigh bullets is very good. The Xtreme Defense bullets act like a hollow point bullet but don't require expansion like a hollow point bullet. If a hollow point bullet doesn't expand, which happens, it acts like a FMJ.
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The wound cavity is the reference for how it acts. The higher velocity along with the edges create considerable hydraulic pressure which creates a hollow point like wound in soft tissue.
 
I wouldn't carry handloads under any circumstances, and would want to see reliable data from IWBA and/or FBI testing before using anything radically different from what's already proven to work.
 
Balrog said:
I am not sure what that means. Can you explain further?
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The flutes on the bullet profile literally propel fluid, or fluid like substances, away from the bullet point with hydraulic pressure. This force will tear a star pattern in gel blocks and actually creates a larger permanent wound channel than hollow points. So if you are being attacked by rabid gel blocks, Lehigh bullets are ideal and worth every penny.

If you believe the gel block tests, then they are quite impressive. I don't believe them.

Until there are some actual use of these and testing in animal tissue, and a permanent wound channel is measured in an animal shot with one, I don't buy the hype. Yes, gel provides a repeatable test medium that approximates human muscle. No, a living body is not consistent enough to expect the exact same results. I'm not saying these bullets don't work, only that they are unproven.
 
I'm off of memory from the article a few months back in american rifleman I believe was the mag.

They stated that the bullets rotation combined with velocity, when entering soft tissue, would create high fluid pressure. Hydraulic if you will. Think of it like a boat prop. They went further in their explanation to determine that the direction of the rifling didn't change the damage done by this projectile. I'm not starting I've purchased or even plan to purchase them. I just remember the article as it was quite interesting.
 
I will say, if you want something that penetrates deeply, the penetrators do that.

But if I'm trying to maximize penetration a hardcasts or monolithic with a large flat meplate is what I want. Not something with a pointy nose.
 
fxvr5 said:
Hollow points are old-school.

The latest trend (which is what you asked for) are Lehigh Xtreme Defense and Inceptor ARX bullets.
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Not sure if these have really taken hold in the self defense market or not, but they sure are fast.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/calling-all-powder-gurus.829589/page-4#post-10714340

index.php
 
I have been watching the Lehigh type (Phillip's head) bullet style from the very beginning. And these could very well out perform JHP and/or Ballistic tip bullets. But that's a very tall order. Just more good stuff for those of us that reload.
 
I think the new Federal Hydra-Shok Deep was introduced after the Lehighs or Arx. If the Federal Hydra-Shok Deep represents a "trend", its a trend that started shortly after the 1986 Miami FBI Shootout...


 
Google Shooting the Bull Ammoquest 9mm,
Lots of tests in gel with and with out denim in front of the block.
Of course gel is not tissue but it is interesting how some bullets that worked great in bare gel didn't do as well after going through a couple layers of denim.
Since most attackers don't attack while naked the denim tests are interesting IMO.

Nothing against what the FBI selected but they require things like car door, windshield penetration that is not something that happens a lot in civilian SD cases.
I may be old school but until some of the new designs have proven performance I will stick with Gold Dots or another premium HP.
 
460Shooter said:
The flutes on the bullet profile literally propel fluid, or fluid like substances, away from the bullet point with hydraulic pressure. This force will tear a star pattern in gel blocks and actually creates a larger permanent wound channel than hollow points. So if you are being attacked by rabid gel blocks, Lehigh bullets are ideal and worth every penny.

If you believe the gel block tests, then they are quite impressive. I don't believe them.

Until there are some actual use of these and testing in animal tissue, and a permanent wound channel is measured in an animal shot with one, I don't buy the hype. Yes, gel provides a repeatable test medium that approximates human muscle. No, a living body is not consistent enough to expect the exact same results. I'm not saying these bullets don't work, only that they are unproven.
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That's really my impression too. Sure they look good in gel, but they were engineered to do so. I want to know how they actually work in real life before I switch from something with plenty of data out there.

Plus, from Paul Harrells videos it seems that some of them, in some guns, have significant deviation from POA. Which means a lot of testing in your carry gun.

Again, what I have works fine and I'm confident in it (JHP, usually Speer GD, HST, or GS). But I am keeping an eye on the screwdriver bullets, who knows, the hype may be true.
 
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the four-layer heavy denim test is NOT intended to simulate any type of clothing; it is merely an engineering evaluation tool to assess the ability of JHP handgun bullets to resist plugging and expand robustly.


.
Why Four Layers of Denim Cloth?
There continues to be misunderstanding about testing JHP handgun bullet expansion using gelatin blocks covered with four layers of heavy denim cloth.

The four-layer heavy denim test was jointly developed by engineer Duncan MacPherson and California Highway Patrol to force manufacturers to design bullets that will expand more reliably when heavy clothing is encountered in actual shooting events. According to MacPherson:

Modern JHP handgun bullet designs perform very reliably in testing; expansion failures are rare. It seems likely that occasional expansion failures in service are inevitable, but the number of failures in [actual California Highway Patrol shooting incidents] appeared excessive to me even though they were a relatively small fraction of all shootings. The unavoidable conclusion seemed to be that these expansion failures were a result of the fact that the expansion of existing JHP bullet designs were not robust; in engineering terminology, lack of robustness simply means that small changes in conditions are likely to cause failure. Initially, this conclusion seemed surprising because heavy clothing stages have been common in handgun ammunition testing protocols ever since this approach was initiated by the FBI handgun ammunition test protocol defined in 1989, and the best modern JHP bullet designs have almost no failures either in these stages or against bare gelatin. A little more thought made this seem less surprising, because the heavy clothing stages in various tests seem to have been selected to represent specific clothing without any systematic investigation directed at evaluating what aspects of the cloth were critical.

A thoughtful investigation of the effects of soft barriers (e.g., clothing, as opposed to the hard barriers represented by building materials and automobile glass) seemed to me to be overdue. [California Highway Patrol Firearms Training Unit Lieutenant] Ed Fincel agreed with this assessment, and he, State of California Associate Procurement Engineer Nick Miloskovich and I set about implementing this investigation in the last quarter of 1996. This activity was very successful, and has led to a new ammunition test protocol [International Wound Ballistics Association (IWBA) Handgun Ammunition Specification]; ammunition satisfying the requirements of this test protocol has been developed [Winchester Ranger T] and is now commercially available in .40 S&W. This new ammunition has much more reliable expansion after penetrating soft barriers than any ammunition previously available in this caliber. Improved .45ACP and 9mm ammunition designs are in the final development stages.1

(MacPherson's article presents 3-4 pages of additional, detailed information about how four layers of denim cloth was selected.)

The test protocol was established in 1998 by IWBA, which recently disbanded as an organization. It is superior to the FBI Heavy Clothing test event.

As described in IWBA Handgun Ammunition Specification Supplement, section 6.2:

Most expansion failures of JHP handgun bullets reported in actual shootings where hard barriers are not involved are probably due to factors that effectively plug up the hollow point cavity and reduce pressure in this area, although the dynamics model that occasionally leads to this result is not completely known in detail. This requirement in the IWBA Handgun Ammunition Specification is designed to force JHP bullet designs that expand much more reliably against soft barriers (hard barriers are discussed in more detail below). This requirement was selected after experimentation to provide a standardized, inexpensive, and precisely defined soft barrier that was a stressing but reasonable protocol for ammunition evaluation; it does not represent a simulation of specific clothing. The JHP bullet design features required to satisfy this requirement are well understood, and ammunition having these design features expands much more consistently and reliably against soft barriers than ammunition without these design features....

Therefore the four-layer heavy denim test is NOT intended to simulate any type of clothing; it is merely an engineering evaluation tool to assess the ability of JHP handgun bullets to resist plugging and expand robustly.

Properly prepared and calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin is the most accurate realistic soft tissue simulant currently available. It provides a reasonable indication of how a bullet can be expected to perform in soft tissues. All other barrier materials aside, clothing and bone are the primary reasons why a bullet recovered from a human body may not resemble one fired into a block of gelatin.

A well-designed bullet exhibits little difference in expansion and penetration between the bare gelatin test and four-layer heavy denim test. In actual shootings, performance usually falls between results exhibited in these two tests, unless bone is hit early in the penetration path. Thus bullets that expand reliably in four-layer denim testing perform well on the street.

Most modern, premium JHP handgun ammunition from U.S. manufacturers is designed to perform well against the IWBA four-layer heavy denim test.

Nowadays, unless the bullet hits bone or an intervening obstacle, or impacts the body at an extreme angle, it is more likely to perform in human soft tissues almost exactly as it performs in standard ordnance gelatin. More often than not, a bullet designed to perform well in the IWBA four-layer denim test that is recovered from a body looks like the same bullet fired into a block of gelatin. It did not used to be that way a decade ago, and criticism about the limitations of gelatin testing was valid indeed.


Source:
FirearmsTactical.com
TacticalBriefs
April 2006
...
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I've looked at the Extreme Penetrator in regards to how they perform vs. hard cast bullets for use against four-legged critters. I use hard cast in my woods bear loads and have not seen any evidence that the Extreme Penetrator is superior to good ol' hard cast lead.

 
What performance metrics have you gathered concerning terminal ballistics against four-legged critters ?
 
This force will tear a star pattern in gel blocks and actually creates a larger permanent wound channel than hollow points.
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The "larger permanent wound cavity" is nothing more than cracks produced in gelatin by the temporary cavity. These cracks DO NOT accurately represent permanent damage to soft tissues.
 
Shawn Dodson said:
The "larger permanent wound cavity" is nothing more than cracks produced in gelatin by the temporary cavity. These cracks DO NOT accurately represent permanent damage to soft tissues.
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Yes, that's my concern as well. Even though gel mimicks living flesh, I just don't trust these gel tests without some real world verification.
 
Captains1911 said:
Massad Ayoob and other recognized deadly force law experts strongly recommend against using self reloaded defensive ammunition.
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I am aware of the recommendations against using self reloaded defensive ammunition and have researched this before starting to do so. Then I started using my own self reloaded defensive ammunition.
 
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460Shooter said:
Yes, that's my concern as well. Even though gel mimicks living flesh, I just don't trust these gel tests without some real world verification.
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Properly prepared and calibrated ordnance gelatin HAS been validated against living soft tissue for well over three decades. The problem is not everyone knows how to properly interpret the wounding effects depicted in ordnance gelatin.
 
Shawn Dodson said:
Properly prepared and calibrated ordnance gelatin HAS been validated against living soft tissue for well over three decades. The problem is not everyone knows how to properly interpret the wounding effects depicted in ordnance gelatin.
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I understand it's been validated, but it's been done so with comparisons and correlative data from actual use. That hasn't occurred with these new bullet types. Until some hunters start using them and verifying the performance compared to the gel block performance, I'm going to remain skeptical.

The cracks/tears look pretty permanent to me. If this was reproduced in a living animal I would think the bleeding would be very extreme. But that's a big if.

That interpretation is the manufacturer's claim. Not mine.
 
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