What's up with 0-EDC in 60 seconds?

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It makes sense if you think of carrying mostly as a psychological crutch. I think that's precisely what's motivating these newcomers to the gun world. They need an outlet for their fear.
that doesn't make any sense. it's a real legitimate tool and not a psychological crutch.

I am not questioning 2A rights. Heck, I'm the guy trying to sell classes and guns. It's the mind set that I'm curious about. Why would an adult who has never held a gun get a concealed carry permit as an intro to guns?
it's completely common sense.
0. they're not looking for an intro to guns. they don't want to compete or be involved in any sport or gun culture. they don't even want to shoot it.
1. they are not looking for training because they believe it's point and shoot, no training required.
2. they know you have to carry the gun to use it. they wouldn't buy the gun if they didn't intend to carry it.
3. you can't carry without a permit in most places, so the first thing they do is jump through the required gov hurdle.

Training is VITALLY important.
historically not really. the VAST majority of "successful Defensive Gun Uses" were no shots fired. outcome would be unchanged if they never even owned ammo for the gun they were carrying.

that means most gun owners are doing the exact opposite of what they should be doing. they should be training to 'brandish' quickly, instead of slow firing for groups.
 
I have had CCW training in two states ( wow ;) ) and there was considerable diffrences in both states. ( one had "duty to retreat").

Slow fire is like taking baby steps for a beginer, gives the end user a feel for the weapon, and starts learning the proccess.

Practicing a quick draw is a must ( with an unloaded firearm!). Practicing to brandish without the legal knowledge of what is, and is not legal self defence in a particular state can be very problimatic.
 
Without being TOO judgemental, I think you have a point there.
Yes. You could also make a statement that many people simply do not have the time. Others would say you should make the time.

Honestly I didn't really mean to imply judgement. I really don't give a rip what the vast majority of the world does any more.

Problem is, the people who don't take it seriously are really unlikely to read this thread and actually consider it. So I just try to encourage folks when I find out they fall into the gun owner but nontrained/nonpracticing group.
 
You left off "ignorant", except in this case the bliss may be worn thin.
Yep, and ignorance can be overcome and isn't anything to be frowned upon. It's only when ignorance is acknowledged by the ignorant, and willfully ignored or disregarded that we venture into true stupidity.
 
historically not really. the VAST majority of "successful Defensive Gun Uses" were no shots fired. outcome would be unchanged if they never even owned ammo for the gun they were carrying.

that means most gun owners are doing the exact opposite of what they should be doing. they should be training to 'brandish' quickly, instead of slow firing for groups.

I dont know where you're coming from. Slow firing for groups? I didnt advocate for that. My guess is you're referencing stats where no shots were fired and no one was hurt or lousy instructors/courses. Um ok. We should be training for "brandishing" as opposed to being safe, skilled and well practiced in all shooting disciplines? That's a head scratcher.
 
Please explain how that supports your claim that I said I have proof.
Very good. So you didn't mean to imply you had the proof, only that you believe it exists but, apparently, you can't access it. Fair enough.

However, that leaves us in pretty much the same situation. You made a claim, therefore by the rules of polite debate, the burden of proof is on you to support it. Since you made the claim, I made the reasonable assumption that you could support it, since that's how these things work. You seem to think you've scored a point by now claiming that you don't have the proof and implying that my reasonable assumption is somehow totally unreasonable. In reality, the fact that you can't support your claim is problematic from the standpoint of polite debate--making claims that you know ahead of time you can't substantiate is actually not a point in your favor at all.
You seriously doubt something but even if it's true, most people would be wrong.
You made a claim that most people believe that expressing a desire for something implies a concern about any other outcome. I said that I don't believe that. I don't. I strongly believe that most people are pretty clear on the difference between preferring something over another option vs. being concerned about the other option.

If I go into a restaurant and say I don't want the mashed potatoes, I want the broccoli, I seriously doubt that "most people" would automatically interpret that to mean that I have a concern about the mashed potatoes.

But, here's the important part. Even in the very unlikely event that it turns otu that most people really are confused about the difference between preference and concern, they would be wrong to interpret my statement as if those two things are the same--because that's not how I meant it and I've explained in detail, and more than once, exactly what I did mean.
This is utter BS.
How is asking you to explain a statement you made utter BS? Did you see how when confusion arose about what I meant by saying I wanted one thing and didn't want another I explained it so my meaning was clear? That's how it works.

Why would you even get involved in a discussion if you are going to get angry when people ask what you mean?
I never said or insinuated that have anything. I did not use any possessive words.
I get that. If you would read what I posted in post #65, you would see that I just quoted your claim EXACTLY, word, for word, and asked what you meant by it. No possessive words added, nothing modified at all.

You posted this statement--here it is exactly as you posted it, without any emphasis or commentary.

I would argue that the states with Constitutional carry prove you concern is statistically invalid.

I would ask you again what you meant, but at this point, it's pretty obvious what you meant--and equally obvious that you really don't want to admit it.

What you meant was: "John, I disagree with your opinion." But that didn't sound good enough to post--it needed some dressing up. So in spite of the fact that you have made it abundantly clear that you had no proof, and apparently that you were also aware you would be unable to point to any proof elsewhere, you decided to use the word "prove" to try to give extra weight to your opinion. Similarly, in spite of the fact that you have no statistics on the topic and can't point to any either, you decided to use the term "statistically invalid" to make your comment seem more like a statement of fact than just an expression of opinion.

That would have worked really well, except for the fact that I was interested enough to ask about the proof and the statistics. In effect, your bluff was called. That left you with two options and rather than making the proper choice, you chose to bluster. At this point I can't tell if you mistakenly believe that your bluster is working, or if you just don't know when to quit.
 
Poor communication choice of words on my part. Should have said “transport”. I know folks who didn’t think they could even have a firearm in their vehicle without a license or even go to a firing range.
10-4...it's amazing to me the number of non gun owning people here around the 'republic' who think they need a 'license' to buy a gun.
 
the fact that you can't support your claim is problematic from the standpoint of polite debate--making claims that you know ahead of time you can't substantiate is actually not a point in your favor at all.

So youre pivoting back to applying the legal standards to the general forum.

Are you implying that you provide support to everything you say?

Is this a new standard or just selectively applied when you try to save face?


You posted this statement--here it is exactly as you posted it, without any emphasis or commentary.

I would argue that the states with Constitutional carry prove you concern is statistically invalid.


And its worth noting that a Mod and several other members liked it.

Youre the only one that fabricated untruths about that comment.



Very good. So you didn't mean to imply you had the proof, only that you believe it exists but, apparently, you can't access it. Fair enough.

No. I flat out said the data used to be on the AZ site about a dozen yrs ago.

You have an odd way of interpretating simple sentences.

You fabricated all by yourself that I said something else because you got defensive & wanted to discredit me.


I never said or insinuated that have anything. I did not use any possessive words.


I get that

Good.


So in spite of the fact that you have made it abundantly clear that you had no proof,

We're on a roll... it's twice now you acknowledge that I didn't say what you claim I did.

It should be abundantly clear because I stated it in plain english that it used to be on the AZ site about a dozen yrs ago and could still could be.

I'm glad it's sinking in with you.

But.... here we go again...

Since you made the claim,

And again....

How is asking you to explain a statement you made utter BS?

It's utter BS because I never made the claim.

You just admitted/acknowledged that twice above.

Another Mod liked my comment and you fabricated untruths.

Youre intentionally being dishonest.
 
I dont know where you're coming from. Slow firing for groups? I didnt advocate for that. My guess is you're referencing stats where no shots were fired and no one was hurt or lousy instructors/courses. Um ok. We should be training for "brandishing" as opposed to being safe, skilled and well practiced in all shooting disciplines? That's a head scratcher.

I’m just saying various researchers have documented and estimated millions of times people used guns to defend themselves. In almost all of them they didn’t need to fire a shot. They were probably justified in pulling their gun and shooting; we will never know. But they chose not to. Firing a gun in defense is very rare but usually better documented as police get involved.

given the above is true, statistically, tactical training isn’t needed in the vast majority of incidents. They don’t even need to load their guns much less practice weak side one handed mag reloads. so it is actually true that just having the gun protects them and it isn’t a psychological disorder
 
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