What's with the P320?

[C-grunt]

When was the statement made?

My main issue with this is Ive not seen any evidence of how this is happening. With the original drop issue there was a mechanical issue that was known and easily demonstrated.

From what Ive seen no one has been able to relay how this new issue is Hakusho and no one has been able to recreate it. None of the "suspect" guns have been demonstrated how it happened.

Im an armorer and LE firearms instructor. Many of my officers I help train carry the P320. Our firearms detail has torrure tested the P320. Organizations all across the country have torture tested the P320. No one has been able to replicate this issue. No one has been able to give a mechanical explanation on how it happens.

On the other hand there are multiple investigated discharges of various handguns in LE holsters. All of them have been because debri got into the holsters.

 

[Kleanbore]

When was the statement made?

What statement?

My main issue with this is Ive not seen any evidence of how this is happening.

If how this has happened is known by anyone, it is the subject of litigation, and you will not see any evidence unless there is a trial court verdict or a recall.

Got it?

 

[C-grunt]

The statement from Sig about knowing that shaking causes discharges, when was that statement made?

Sig doesn't hold some secret mechanical knowledge that is unavailable to the public. The product is widely available and the mechanics of the gun are widely known. Sig openly teaches people on how the gun operates mechanically, how to repair the gun, and how to diagnose issues.

I understand litigation. Been in it. But plenty of people have specifically tried to replicate this issue and can't. With the drop issue, people outside of Sig figured it out within days of the issue coming to light.

 

[Kleanbore]

The statement from Sig about knowing that shaking causes discharges, when was that statement made?

Again. last yrar.

Sig doesn't hold some secret mechanical knowledge that is unavailable to the public.

Bull.

I understand litigation

It is apparent that you do not.

But plenty of people have specifically tried to replicate this issue and can't.

TIf that is true, it would indicate the problem.

With the drop issue, people outside of Sig figured it out within days of the issue coming to light.

Yes, but SIG railed to admit is.

 

[C-grunt]

Again. last yrar.
Bull.
It is apparent that you do not.
TIf that is true, it would indicate the problem.
Yes, but SIG railed to admit is.

1. Sig doesnt have some secret understanding of levers and springs that the rest of the world hasn't figured out.
2. I understand limiting info under litigation. But Im sorry if I dont take info given to me 4th hand that's conveniently unable to be verified as gospel.
3. Armorers testing guns that have reports of issues isn't a sign that the issue is real. That's called doing your due diligence as an armorer.
4. This issue is only happening to guns not fitted with manual safeties. The US military has purchased something like 200k M17 pistols and has not had these mysterious firings. Troops definitely experience more vibrations and shock than a police officer on a regular basis. It is true that the M17 is fitted with a manuel safety, however the manual safety on the Sig P320 is only a trigger bar blocker. All it does is prevent the trigger from being pulled.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Explain to me again why you would want a P320 over a P226/P229?

 

[C-grunt]

Explain to me again why you would want a P320 over a P226/P229?

About a year or so ago I got to try out a Legion P226 SAO model. What an awesome gun.

 

[Kleanbore]

1. Sig doesnt have some secret understanding of levers and springs that the rest of the world hasn't figured out.

so what?

But Im sorry if I dont take info given to me 4th hand that's conveniently unable to be verified as gospel.

The SIG comments RE: shock and vibration became known to the public after the suit was filed. What SIG has said has been verified as autentic, although iit tells us no more than that they adise that the gunds can fire uncommanded.. We have mentioned how you may pursue the direct source, should you so desire.. Are you denying something because you have been ignorant of it?

Armorers testing guns that have reports of issues isn't a sign that the issue is real. That's called doing your due diligence as an armorer.

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

This issue is only happening to guns not fitted with manual safeties

So it seems. There are concealed carriers who do not like manual safeties that require any movement extraneous to drawing and gripping the gun,

Have you read the suit? Did you read the earlier thread that discussed the suit?

 

[Tcruse]

Explain to me again why you would want a P320 over a P226/P229?

It is a lighter, has much better trigger, and has a modular design allowing more options.

 

[.455_Hunter]

It is a lighter, has much better trigger, and has a modular design allowing more options.

Lighter- True

Modularity- Useful if you have problems with decisiveness. If I want a compact, I buy a compact- if I want a duty size, I buy a duty size. I don't expect one platform to cover both.

Better Trigger- Absolutely open to interpretation. The safety of a full DA trigger is a non-negotiable positive for me, and the transition to a P320 like SA trigger for repeated fire is perfect. The ability to return to that safe, non-energized DA trigger with a simple lever press is a wonderful feature. I will take a hard pass on the P320 and what is essentially a cocked and unlocked SA gun.

 

[C-grunt]

Ive read the allegations part but not the full 150ish pages. Ive read multiple threads regarding these lawsuits.

I did note that the lawsuit makes a big deal about the lack of a manual safety or any sort of trigger safety which they say can cause unintended discharges.

"66. A properly functioning and active external manual safety, at the time the subject gun was sold, would preclude a properly functioning P320 from firing in an unintended fashion. 67. Upon information and belief, every striker-fired pistol on the market is equipped with some type of manual safety; whether it is a thumb safety, tab trigger safety, grip safety, decocker, or hinge trigger. 68. Upon information and belief, Sig Sauer manufactures the only striker-fired pistols on the market that are not equipped with any form of external manual safety. Case 1:23-cv-00209 Document 1 Filed 03/27/23 Page 12 of 145 13 69. Upon information and belief, every single-action pistol on the market is equipped with some type of manual safety; whether it is a thumb safety, tab trigger safety, grip safety, or decocker."

I does note one lady who had a improperly assembled gun. She definitely has a case if it came from the factory like that.

Copied from Page 7 of the Glock manual:

"Like any other mechanical device, if your GLOCK pistol is subjected to unusual and extreme forces a part failure can occur. Therefore, safe firearm handling practices and the instructions and safety warnings in this manual must always be followed to minimize the risk of a negligent discharge.  WARNING! In case any of your GLOCK pistol's safeties prove to be ineffective for any reason, the possibility of an unintentional discharge exists. If so, your GLOCK pistol should be immediately unloaded and not be used again until it has been examined by a GLOCK-Certified Armorer."

So Glock also notes that unusual and extreme forces could cause the gun to fire.

Just because Sig might give some examples doesn't mean the P320 is the only gun that can fail mechanically. Which again no one can show how a properly functioning P320 will fire without the trigger being pulled and only 1 plaintiff in the lawsuit that I saw has shown proof that her gun was assembled wrong.

 

[C-grunt]

Modularity- Useful if you have problems with decisiveness. If I want a compact, I buy a compact- if I want a duty size, I buy a duty size. I don't expect one platform to cover both.
.

The modulairty is great for military or gov agencies as they can tailor the weapon for the mission. But on the civilian side, I agree with you.

 

[Kleanbore]

"Like any other mechanical device, if your GLOCK pistol is subjected to unusual and extreme forces a part failure can occur.

Not the same thing.

Which again no one can show how a properly functioning P320 will fire without the trigger being pulled

That has been seen on CCTV videos--though that would, by definition, not involve "properly functioning" pistols--and that seems to be the problem.

 

[InTheSwamp]

The P320 was the "Meh" pistol before the US Army adopted it (unexpected by many) ... it has a cultish following now.

 

[C-grunt]

Not the same thing.

That has been seen on CCTV videos--though that would, by definition, not involve "properly functioning" pistols--and that seems to be the problem.

Where are these videos?

 

[C-grunt]

So when the Sig manual says extreme conditions can cause failure its one thing, but when the Glock manual says the same thing it's different?

 

[Kleanbore]

So when the Sig manual says extreme conditions can cause failure its one thing, but when the Glock manual says the same thing it's different?

Think!
The SIG release stated that a pistol that is, or has been, subjected to shock or vibration [of unspecified magnitude] can fire uncommanded. The Glock manual says that unusual and extreme forces can cause part failure.

Can you comprehend the difference?

 

[Col. Harrumph]

MAN I'm sorry I got this thread started! Things are getting rather hot here. Please, everyone take a breather, OK? Lets stay friends.

Oh crap I forgot I don't have any (see avatar).

 

[SwampWolf]

Things are getting rather hot here. Please, everyone take a breather, OK? Lets stay friends.

I agree. There are some people who just have to always be "right" and end their posts with sarcastic, condescending "rebuttals". Friendship is precious and I'd like to think that we are all friends here having a common cause and purpose. Let's stay that way.

 

[C-grunt]

According to the lawsuit the Sig P320 manual states "like any mechanical device, exposure to acute conditions (e.g. shock, vibration, heavy or repeated drops) may have a negative effect on these safety mechanisms and cause them to fail to work as designed."

Definition of acute per the Oxford dictionary "(of a bad, difficult, or unwelcome situation or phenomenon) present or experienced to a severe or intense degree."

The wording between the Glock and Sig manual is different, but they relay the same message.

 

[Riomouse911]

The local sheriffs department has nearly 1,900 sworn, they put the ixnay on their deputies carrying the entire P320 series on or off duty last fall because of the alleged issues with them. My former office only had one guy who ever carried one, but he retired out in 2021 so that issue is moot.

Stay safe.

 

[Kleanbore]

MAN I'm sorry I got this thread started! Things are getting rather hot here.

Would have been simpler for us to provide the link to the original thread.

[URL="https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/milwaukee-pd-to-replace-p320s-with-glocks.912069/"]Milwaukee PD to replace P320s with Glocks[/URL]

The high point is probably the discussion by Attorneys Ahn and Branca.

According to the lawsuit the Sig P320 manual states "like any mechanical device, exposure to acute conditions (e.g. shock, vibration, heavy or repeated drops) may have a negative effect on these safety mechanisms and cause them to fail to work as designed."...The wording between the Glock and Sig manual is different, but they relay the same message.

Those are not the words we have been discussing here. See the attorneys' discussion for the details

As of 8 December, 2022, there was no such reference in the then-current SIG manual.

 

[Col. Harrumph]

Would have been simpler for us to provide the link to the original thread.

Milwaukee PD to replace P320s with Glocks

This is the original thread. The article I referenced in the OP was in a local newspaper few here will subscribe to, and didn't mention the MPD decision. Perhaps this thread should be closed to further comments.

 

[Kleanbore]

This is the original thread.

I should have said earlier thread.

I do not think there has been anything new in this one.

 

[SwampWolf]

I will take a hard pass on the P320 and what is essentially a cocked and unlocked SA gun.

Like the M8, which I have, I believe the 320 can be had with a manual safety. Most Glock-like striker-fired pistols are "essentially cocked and locked SA guns" (some at least have a grip safety), which is why the only two striker-fired pistols I have (the M8 and a 365 XL) are equipped with a manual safety. I think it's true that most shooters prefer not having a manual safety on their striker-fired pistols and that's fine by me.