P320 Discharged in Transit Policeman’s Holster

[Logwood]

Anything is possible, but unless there's a video of the incident - I'd say the officer had a ND.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

Wonder what type of holster it was?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Wonder what type of holster it was?

Type? Thigh holster.

Brand and model not stated.

 

[sequins]

I'd be more open to the idea it was simply the officer at fault if it were any other model. On the other hand perhaps this individual knew the gun had a rap and this was a convenient lie.

Either way the p320 has a cloud over it in my eyes with all these reports. I'll follow this most recent case with interest.

 

[JohnKSa]

Either way the p320 has a cloud over it in my eyes with all these reports. I'll follow this most recent case with interest.

The resolution has already been reported in this thread.

Two independent agencies examined the gun and found no issues with it that could account for it's firing spontaneously while holstered.

 

[J2FLAN]

After reading this post, I was looking at my 320 and thinking, Maybe, I won`t have to pull that useless trigger every single time.
Sorry, but a holstered P320 firing on its own, really ??

 

[edwardware]

I can't imagine a gun going off in a holster I am wearing and not feeling when the gun fired.

He really ought to have at least a bit of scorching down his pants, eh?

I suspect the officer(s) forgot some relevant details in their reports. No mechanical failure is impossible, but this seems overwhelmingly unlikely.

 

[Robbins290]

Either the officer is not telling the whole truth or something like a string from some clothes got into the holster and some how pressed the trigger. I don't trust this story. Too many red flags. lab could not replicate the discharge. Maker of holster is unknown. No video evidence. And why would they replace 130 P320's over something that they found "none defective"? Sound like someone is charge just wanted to swap pistols.

 

[sequins]

The resolution has already been reported in this thread.

Two independent agencies examined the gun and found no issues with it that could account for it's firing spontaneously while holstered.

I dont think departmental internal investigations put this to bed at all, and they certainly can't be called independent. I just re-checked the SEPTA article to ensure I had my facts straight and it referred to an internal investigation. I would put more stock in test results from a redneck with a hammer as he'd have more demonstrated credibility to be honest.

The p320 was 100% good to go according to all sources until Omaha started doing exactly that, and multiple police agencies were using that gun and whatever testing they had done at that time revealed no flaws- they didn't find it then, why would you think they must have found it this time? I recall everyone on this forum also saying it was impossible, SIG wouldn't do that, the army tested it, etc. Then as well, and the drop test angle that caused the failure was a few degrees outside of testing norms and thus not found. It doesn't make me feel very confident in the tests if that's how thorough the "professionals" are.

 

[zaitcev]

I am not a qualified armorer or even a graduate of SDI, but here's something I noticed.

The SIG P320 uses a sharply different striker block than most other pistols out there. Instead of a button, it includes a little swinger that is very narrow. It can get damaged if officers drop the slide while cleaning. I know, it's a pretty remote possibility, but it can be jammed into the slide. Well, same can happen to a traditional button, but it's less likely because a button is this much sturdier and the friction surface goes around a cylinder.

In addition, the striker safety lever on P320 is co-located with the sear. I see an opportunity for the sear affecting the safety lever, or vise-versa (although they do not sit on the same pin). All you need to have is a little piece of foreign matter working its way in. On most other striker firing pistols, such as Glocks, these mechanical elements are far apart and the mechanical connection between them is highly unlikely. Specifically on the Glock the connector cannot pull on the cruciform and thus the transfer bar, only push, so its failure cannot disengage the striker safety.

And one other thing, on a Glock the striker is not fully cocked, but on P320 it is. Of course that is only comforting if primers are hard enough to make a difference.

This case also brings up to mind a member of these forums who had an SCCY CPX-2 go off on its own in his house. The notable part about the story is that CPX-2 is a full DAO gun, and its hammer is never cocked. The poor guy maintained his innocence and the general opinion ended being that either his child or his wife fired the gun, but didn't own to it. But some of the most ridiculous theories were floated in order to explain how it could happen, mechanically speaking.

Likewise, it's most likely that officers were not entirely honest here. But nonetheless, P320 has a uniquely intricate mechanism with some rather obvious weak spots.

 

[WYO]

Type? Thigh holster.

Brand and model not stated.

There have been reports of certain types of weapon mounted light (WML) holsters for the P320 having an inordinate amount of space between the gun and the holster in order to accommodate the insertion of the WML. The gap is sufficiently large to allow a finger or object/debris to access the trigger while the gun is holstered. I know someone who experienced a discharge in this manner.

 

[sequins]

I am not a qualified armorer or even a graduate of SDI, but here's something I noticed.

The SIG P320 uses a sharply different striker block than most other pistols out there. Instead of a button, it includes a little swinger that is very narrow. It can get damaged if officers drop the slide while cleaning. I know, it's a pretty remote possibility, but it can be jammed into the slide. Well, same can happen to a traditional button, but it's less likely because a button is this much sturdier and the friction surface goes around a cylinder.

In addition, the striker safety lever on P320 is co-located with the sear. I see an opportunity for the sear affecting the safety lever, or vise-versa (although they do not sit on the same pin). All you need to have is a little piece of foreign matter working its way in. On most other striker firing pistols, such as Glocks, these mechanical elements are far apart and the mechanical connection between them is highly unlikely. Specifically on the Glock the connector cannot pull on the cruciform and thus the transfer bar, only push, so its failure cannot disengage the striker safety.

And one other thing, on a Glock the striker is not fully cocked, but on P320 it is. Of course that is only comforting if primers are hard enough to make a difference.

This case also brings up to mind a member of these forums who had an SCCY CPX-2 go off on its own in his house. The notable part about the story is that CPX-2 is a full DAO gun, and its hammer is never cocked. The poor guy maintained his innocence and the general opinion ended being that either his child or his wife fired the gun, but didn't own to it. But some of the most ridiculous theories were floated in order to explain how it could happen, mechanically speaking.

Likewise, it's most likely that officers were not entirely honest here. But nonetheless, P320 has a uniquely intricate mechanism with some rather obvious weak spots.

The SCCY poster got a brand new pistol when he sent it to the factory. I believe that SCCY did that because of a legitimate defect. He could have made that up to save face but I don't imagine someone trying to hide their negligence would even post in the first place. If he messed up he'd probably quietly try to pretend it never happened...

I consider that SCCY issue as unknown but maybe real based on the action SCCY allegedly took.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

Type? Thigh holster.

Brand and model not stated.

I asked as the Serpas can be thigh holsters and they have had some issues over the years, usually on the draw I think though.

 

[JohnKSa]

I dont think departmental internal investigations put this to bed at all, and they certainly can't be called independent. I just re-checked the SEPTA article to ensure I had my facts straight and it referred to an internal investigation.

They're certainly independent of SIG. It would be one thing of SIG (or a SIG affiliate) looked the gun over and said there was no problem--especially if the complainant continued to state that there was.

In this case, the organizations have nothing to do with SIG. That's what I was trying to point out. Yes, they are closely affiliated with the organization making the accusation--which to most people would give their findings more weight. In spite of the fact that one might expect them to side with the accuser, they are, instead saying that the gun is not defective or broken and have apparently dropped the matter.

Furthermore, nothing's stopping them from sending the gun to SIG for more testing, but after looking at the gun, it doesn't appear that they feel the accusation has enough merit to even take that step.

So, let's say that "JoeBob" accuses a gun company of making defective guns based on an incident he has, but drops his accusation and doesn't bother to even send the gun to the manufacturer after he has two gunsmiths that he trusts look the gun over. I would consider the matter resolved. If a complaint or a lawsuit is withdrawn, or an accusation is dropped, how can one look at the situation and say that It's not resolved?

The p320 was 100% good to go according to all sources until Omaha started doing exactly that, and multiple police agencies were using that gun and whatever testing they had done at that time revealed no flaws- they didn't find it then, why would you think they must have found it this time?

The big, no, the absolutely monumentally huge, difference there was that as soon as people started looking at the guns and testing them, they were immediately able to perfectly replicate the circumstances of the accusation. Even really unsophisticated testing proved that the complaint was valid.

In this case, two organizations with trained specialists in firearms (neither of which had ties to the gun manufacturer) closely examined the gun and were unable to find any problem with it at all.

 

[Fiv3r]

The multiple passive safeties found in pretty much every modern striker fired gun failing are what have me scratching my head about this claim.

I love the SIG p320. It's my go-to polymer firearm. Love the way it shoots, the way it feels in my hand, the way it comes apart. However, I am a believer in that SIG should have deemed the drop safety failure a recall and not a voluntary upgrade. Just call it what it is.

That said, as rare as it is to potentially drop a gun at the exact angle to make an un-"upgraded" go off, I put a lot more weight on it being a reality than I do a gun sitting in a holster just deciding to "go off".

Like I said, I love the 320. Its not everyone's cup of tea, but it's a pretty solid design. I'm kinda excited to see what kind of tweaks they do to it as get more empirical data from the military and thus police departments as it rolls into actual action on the field over time.

 

[ilbob]

I am suspicious that someone inadvertently or unintentionally pulled the bang control and does not want to own up to.

However, it is a mechanically device with some potential for failure.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Having worked for three agencies over 25yrs working from multiple transportation platforms, I can envision a couple of scenarios where a Sig could be induced into firing, while in a holster.

Ive seen thigh holsters flop and wag, and bump into a myriad of objects. I won’t wear one, as I don’t abuse my firearms thusly. Given the alleged slide-frame slop, and shallow sear engagement mentioned, I can see how during an energetic exit from a truck door, enclosed ATV, scooter, boat, ect, that the gun would be slammed or violently jostled and discharged.

While I was required to wear a Don Hume “Bill Jordan” style holster (drop style, hammer-thumb strap), I would have the hammer spur hang on upholstery, tearing it, and infrequently, the thumb strap unsnap and the revolver fall out of the holster. On one occasion, a fellow officer had an S&W Mod65 fall from his holster, and go “plop” into the lake as he leaned over the gunnel of the patrol boat while inspecting safety equipment on another boat. Gun was never recovered! Very embarrassing to say the least. I can imagine that’s why the agency made the decision to dump the Sigs for the Glocks. Embarrassing officials responsible for purchasing decisions.

Like the military would only allow cocked and locked while engaging enemy. Even the M1911 could AD while holstered, given sufficient “motivation “.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

IMO it's almost impossible for the gun to fire while not being touched. The trigger on that gun must be fully pulled to enable the striker to hit the primer. I have a P320 that has gone through the "fix" program but I only sent it in to get a free trigger upgrade which is on the Legend line.