When being attacked, when do you stop pulling the trigger?

[gearbox]

Say you're being attacked. When do you stop shooting? After a double-tap to COM and a head shot? When the magazine is spent?
If you say "when the threat has been neutralized," please define "neutralized."

I ask for the purpose of defending myself (in that unfortunate event) and not seeming legally "overzealous," while still maintaining effectiveness.

 

[c_yeager]

Whatever comes first: The assailent falls to the ground and stops moving, runs away, or i hear a 'click' and am out of reloads.

 

[Sharpie1]

c_yeager

...couldn't have said it better myself.

TD

 

[voilsb]

You stop pulling the trigger when it won't go back any farther. Then you release it. Then you pull it again.

You keep doing this until your assailant stops being a threat. If it means he's lying on the ground in a pool of blood, then that's when you stop. If it's when he stops coming at you and goes away, then that's when.

Also, you should stop pulling the trigger if you need to reload. Kinda hard to do that if you're still trying to shoot. After you reload, the above goes back into full effect.

When you're totally out of ammo, your gun becomes a club. Kinda silly to pull the trigger then, eh?

 

[VaughnT]

Shoot to slidelock. Trying to count your rounds in a combat situation just isn't going to happen. You're going to be scared, terrified, possibly hurt, and definitely not thinking too clearly.

Most attacks occur outside, at 7yd or less, and last no more than 2-3 seconds. This isn't hollywood and you need to realize that our level of training and preparation is minimal to say the least. Draw that weapon, put it in his gut, and pull the trigger as often as possible.

Only once he is on the ground and you have scanned the area for other hostiles do you consider a cease-fire and reload. Seven or eight rounds in one magazine should be sufficient to put them on the ground at the distances we are talking about.

 

[hillbilly]

Shoot to stop.

Shoot until the threat or threats are no longer a threat.

If that's one shot and the bad guy runs off, stop shooting then.

If that's midway through the second mag, and the bad guy is on the ground but still crawling toward you with his knife, keep shooting.

Shoot to stop.

And don't stop until the threat does.

hillbilly

 

[goon]

When the attacker is no longer standing in front of me with a weapon in his hand, that is when I stop.
Until then, it is shoot to lockback, rinse, lather, repeat.

 

[C. H. Luke]

"....when do you stop pulling the trigger?
... When do you stop shooting? After a double-tap to COM and a head shot? .......If you say "when the threat has been neutralized," please define "neutralized."

A "Double-Tap" is a competitve shooting term and technique. It does not really have any place in a true self-defense situation. You need to insure that 2nd shotDOES reach its intend target!

Have spent a good amount of time training under Chuck Taylor. His theory is backed up by much reseach regarding CNS "shut-down". this can take as much as 4 seconds+ so you need to take the time to evauluate and asess the situation once you've completed a "Quick Aimed Pair" to COM. If the target does not go down with two good hits COM he will probably not do so by emptying the pistol into him. After that 3-4 seconds you have a Faliure To Stop situation callingfor a Cranial-Ocular shot. And....you need to know at what distance you can actually make that CO shot under the massive adrenaline dump that's going to happen.

As far as "neutralzing" goes it's the same as CNS Shut-Down.........

 

[MJRW]

I think Tamara said it best. If I recall, she said something along the lines of "shoot until they stop doing whatever it was that made me shoot them in the first place."

 

[LeonCarr]

3F

Fire 'til the Felon Falls

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[Ryder]

Say you're being attacked. When do you stop shooting? After a double-tap to COM and a head shot? When the magazine is spent?

I have no set plan. I'm for whatever the situation demands. I can imagine scenarios anywhere from a single aimed headshot to a full mag. I hope to be able to keep some in reserve. You never know who might be sneaking up behind you for smoking their partner in crime.

I'd cease fire when it's determined that the threat to my safety no longer exists. I believe abandonment of the weapon which was being used to threaten me is an excellent sign of good faith but it's really hard for me to imagine that happening until it's too late for the BG in the first place.

 

[cool45auto]

Like someone else said: "I shot him every time he moved, and every time I shot him he moved." Or something like that.

 

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

cranial-ocular shot? I like it.

 

[Zeke Menuar]

I have no set plan. I'm for whatever the situation demands

Every time I have been forced to draw, the BG has turned tail and ran. One of my best lines was yelled at two teenaged BG that both pulled knives on me. I moved and put a parked car between me and them(remember the 21ft rule) and yelled "You're pretty stupid to bring a knife to a gunfight! Get the hell out of here! Now!" They ran and ran fast.

If that scenario would have turned ugly, my training taught me to put two shots on one BG, two on the other BG, re-evaulate and go from there. Run like hell? Maybe a tactical reload? Certainly call 911 on the cell if possible. Make damn sure the BG's aren't a threat to me or anyone else around, if that takes one round or every round I have on me so be it.
There is no hard and fast rule. Every scenario is different. Fortunatly I am a card-carrying coward. My first rule of self defense is not to place myself in a potentially dangerous situation. ie: I drive to the store now.

ZM

 

[10-Ring]

I would stop when the threat is gone. I guess it would be when the assailant has stopped moving.

 

[Paul Gomez]

As a general rule, keep shooting as long as the thing that you started shooting is still hanging off the front of the gun. If your bang-bang quites going bang, MOVE. Depending on range and circumstances, that may be movement toward (and striking with the empty gun) or movement away from the threat. If the situation allows, reload and, if needed, keep shooting.

Once it has fallen off the end of the gun, drop the muzzle and find it. Assess while increasing distance. Once you're pretty sure he's quit wiglling, Scan 360 [looking for additional threats, a safe place to move to,etc] and move. Move towards that safe place [ie cover], reload & talk. Talk to the threat, talk to anyone in the area and talk to the police. [Don't Move. Stay Back, he's still dangerous. Did he hurt anyone else? Police, Call the Police., etc,etc].

One quick point, on all this moving around. Don't just back away from the badguy. Move off the line of attack. You don't want him to know where you are if you can help it. If he has no other information, he will probably move &/or shoot towards the last place he saw you. Don't be there.

 

[Erik]

I plan on stopping when they are no longer a threat. As already mentioned, that may be after one, or several shots.

 

[King]

When the BG stops doing what he was doing.....stop when the threat stops.

 

[Powderman]

There is no hard and fast rule. Every scenario is different. Fortunatly I am a card-carrying coward. My first rule of self defense is not to place myself in a potentially dangerous situation. ie: I drive to the store now.

Coward? I think not.

Aware of your limitations? Probably.

Smart enough to try to keep out of dangerous situations, and to not engage when the threat ceases? Most assuredly.

You, my friend, have realized that any fool can pull a trigger. It takes maturity to know when not to.

Mucho hombre, my friend. Mucho hombre.

 

[marauder220]

I've had to fire my weapon on a few different occasions, both on duty and off. I've done a good bit of training over the years and practice on a weekly basis. Everytime I had to fire my weapon I usually ended up firing 3rnds. I am usually moving towards cover the entire time pending the situation. Honestly, the threat was usually no longer a threat by the time I touched off the third round. They were either running away or on the ground. I have witnessed officer involved shootings where the officer shot to slide lock and kept going, thinking he was still firing. I would also follow-up with head shots as the situation needed. The weirdest situation I've ever had was on a domestic related traffic stop, the driver just attacked us with a large kitchen knife from the get-go. There were 3 of us involved, and OC was used as the guy charged me head on. I got off 2 rnds and was able to retreat behind my patrol vehicle. I thought I had missed and was going to take a head shot when the guy dropped the knife and sat down on the ground. He put his hands on his head and said "you guys don't have to get so ruff." He was taken into custody without further incident. I had hit him twice in the abdomen. He was so jacked up on cocaine and pcp that he didn't even know he had been shot. He survived surgery and recovered. Interestingly enough I was trying damn hard to get behind my car, that I thought I had fired alot more than 2 rnds. After-action assesment told me I fired 2, and my partner fired 14 and missed every time. I didn't even hear him shooting. During the interviews that followed, my partner kept saying he was trying to shoot the actor, but his gun just wasn't working. I just guess he got off the 14rnds and his mind didn't click onto exactly what was going on. I'm a firm believer in shot placement and mindset, and use of cover no matter what.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

As noted, you shoot to the threat. As long as there is a threat that warrants shooting, you shoot.

With that said, I will have to stop by the end of the 2 reload regardless of whether there is a threat left or not. I only carry two spare magazines on me.

Card-carrying coward? Does this mean we can form a support group? While a little older now, in my younger adult years, I can remember two episodes (long before I carried a gun) that involved me running like hell and there was this little girl with a piercing scream at each event...and she was loud too! I never saw the little girl and word is I was the one screaming. Tension went up and so did my voice.

A good pair of running shoes are an excellent defensive weapon when used for their intended purpose.

 

[Kenneth Lew]

When do you stop shooting?

You shoot to stop the threat

After a double-tap to COM and a head shot?

Grand juries have indicted people in the past for doing a Mozambique drill. (It shows that the defender tried to intentionally kill the attacker) All the CHL instructors I know will fail a person if they are caught doing head shots and may recommend to the Texas DPS that the applicant should not get a CHL.

When the magazine is spent?

Excessive force. Ex-Class III dealer I know was indicted by a grand jury a long time ago for shooting a robber with both barrels of a 12 gauge. Reason behind it, excessive force.

 

[Jeff White]

Kenneth Lew said;

Grand juries have indicted people in the past for doing a Mozambique drill. (It shows that the defender tried to intentionally kill the attacker) All the CHL instructors I know will fail a person if they are caught doing head shots and may recommend to the Texas DPS that the applicant should not get a CHL.

Can you cite some cases please? Both the Mozambique and the Non-Standard Response are widely taught to police officers. Here in Illinois the use of deadly force doesn't differentiate between peace officers and private citizens. A private citizen may use the same force a peace officer may in defense of his/her life.

Excessive force. Ex-Class III dealer I know was indicted by a grand jury a long time ago for shooting a robber with both barrels of a 12 gauge. Reason behind it, excessive force.

Again I'd like to see some details. Surely there were other circumstances, involved. What was the outcome of the trial? You can usually get a grand jury to indict anything. Was it ruled to be excessive force at trial.

What is the standard for use of force where you are at?

Jeff

 

[rayjay]

I'll stop shooting when the BG falls down and is no longer approaching me in a aggressive demeanor OR if the BG(s) turn and vacate the area. If I shoot a BG in the head.....well......OOPS! I didn't mean to do that your honor Thats my story and I'm stickin' to it. Bad Guys wear body armor too.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Kenneth Lew, what are you talking about? I have a feeling you aren't in Texas. The CHL instructors here do NOT fail people for head shots. In fact, head shots are in one of the better zones on the target to get the points needed to pass the qualification aspect of the CHL license. I have seen folks who targets in just the head for the quals. It is a valid area.

I think your CHL instructors are idiots if that is what they are telling you. That is pure garbage. In a self defense situation, we talk about shooting to stop, but there is nothing wrong with "shooting to kill" so long as the response meets the threat. I don't know of a single state in the US with laws where a situation for a justified use of lethal force says you can't make head shots. What the heck do you think lethal force is? To the head, neck, chest, arm, leg, hand, foot, and WARNING shots are all uses of lethal force. They may or may not have as much lethal impact on the recipient, but they are lethal force.

Jeff White is right, there is some information missing from your interpretations of indictments.