When Called: Conscription
- Thread starter roo_ster
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You are wrong, it is all there in Article I, Sec. 8 of the US Constitution:
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;
To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;
To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;
To establish post offices and post roads;
To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;
To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;
To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;
To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;
To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;
To provide and maintain a navy;
To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;
To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress; SNIPPED
According to the US Supreme Court, every time a case about military drafts has arisen, Congress has wide latitude to pass such laws as are necessary to enable it to pcarry out its ennumerated powers. It is beyond all reasonable legal question that legislation instituting a draft for manpower for use by the military is within the operative language empowering the legislative branch.
If you want to change that fact of life, you are going to need a more specific amendment than the Thirteenth as the draft has never been legally or constitutionally equated to slavery in this country.
Autolycus
Member
I dont think conscription is a good idea. I may answer if I feel that it is a just cause. If drafted I dont think I would fight if I was against the war they wanted me to fight. If someone attacked the country it would be different. However if it is to go get some oil or to help make government cronies richer I might not go.
Have you ever wondered why it seems that the majority of people fighting in the majority of wars are usually middle class or lower class?
Have you ever wondered why it seems that the majority of people fighting in the majority of wars are usually middle class or lower class?
Lone_Gunman
Member
Haven't they changed the entrance requirements be meet quotas?
Hobie
Member
Right now, 1% (or less) of the population is doing defense of nation work. 72% of our young people are not qualified for military service under the current rules/regs/policies/law according to the VFW magazine.
I enjoyed serving the in VOLAR Army but I enlisted so long ago that there were still draftees being processed through training sites. My first AIT roomate was a draftee. Several of those folks found themselves in service and will tell you to this day that the service "saved" them.
I enjoyed serving the in VOLAR Army but I enlisted so long ago that there were still draftees being processed through training sites. My first AIT roomate was a draftee. Several of those folks found themselves in service and will tell you to this day that the service "saved" them.
Boats, simply being legal doesn't make something right or just, just as being illegal doesn't automatically make something wrong. A quick perusal of US gun laws should make that obvious. I wouldn't care if the Constitution specifically allowed the government to conscript soldiers, I would still do everything in my power to escape its grasp.
How is it that so many people can think that wars in Vietnam or Iraq or Korea are actually about defending the US, or bringing freedom to the unwashed masses, or ensuring Americans' civil rights?
How is it that so many people can think that wars in Vietnam or Iraq or Korea are actually about defending the US, or bringing freedom to the unwashed masses, or ensuring Americans' civil rights?
JesseL
Member
Boats said:
As sovereign individual human being, who is anyone to tell me how to use my life? Government exists to serve individuals, contrary to JFK's little socialism tainted speech. I am not a national resource.
Pilgrim
Member
You guys would have loved press gangs.
Pilgrim
All too often, the "national interest" is in fact the financial interests of a small elite. Don't believe me? Maybe you would believe a man who won the Congressional Medal of Honor twice, Major General Smedley Butler, who said: “War is a racket. It always has been.”
“I was a high class muscleman for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers,” Butler said. “In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.”
In a speech in 1933, Butler said the following:
“I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.”
Fighting to defend your home and your neighbors from invaders is one thing, BEING an invader of someone else's home to further the interests of the 3000 or so people who really run this country is entirely another.
The draft is slavery, by any rational definition. "free riders?" "atomistic cowardice?" A lot of people these days seem to mistake jingoism for patriotism and a refusal to scrape and grovel and march to the tune of our all-knowing masters (who love us and obviously know what is in the "national" and hence our own, interest) for cowardice. For crying out loud, the Founding Fathers warned repeatedly against even having a standing army, never mind enslaving people to fill it's ranks.
Eleven Mike
Member
The other side of Kim? Did he revamp his site, or does he have two of them?
The following should be agreed upon by all, no matter their opinion of the draft.
If one's countrymen are being drafted into war, any citizen worth his salt will answer the call and take his lumps with his brothers, even if he feels a draft is slavery. Draft-dodging is poor citizenship, selfish childishness and cowardice, not necessarily in that order.
For the record, I remain undecided on the issue.
The following should be agreed upon by all, no matter their opinion of the draft.
If one's countrymen are being drafted into war, any citizen worth his salt will answer the call and take his lumps with his brothers, even if he feels a draft is slavery. Draft-dodging is poor citizenship, selfish childishness and cowardice, not necessarily in that order.
For the record, I remain undecided on the issue.
National interests? No. But it's my life, and I've got no guilt over unilaterally deciding what's in my own best interests. -Ian
that's ok. just don't be upset when the federal government unilateraly decides to impose whatever penalties it institutes for avoiding service.
that's ok. just don't be upset when the federal government unilateraly decides to impose whatever penalties it institutes for avoiding service.
Lucky
Member
Why would you need a draft, if every male between 18 and 40 is already in the militia? Is it because recognizing that would mean you'd have to allow those people to own the arms their positions would suggest? I figure that if someone goes out of their way to avoid that, they must be up to something.
brerrabbit
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Not very likely truth be told. If the federal government decided to hold a war and no one came, and then was silly enough to put all the draft dodgers in jail, they would immediately alienate quite a few people and pretty much multiply the people in federal custody by many fold.
BTW the federal government pretty much lost its free lunch card on this issue in Vietnam.
Eleven Mike
Member
Lucky, I'm not sure I understand you.
A Country like the USA should not have any need for a Draft.
(See: 2nd Amendment US Constitution)
We should be as Kim Du-Toit's own website says "A Nation of Riflemen" and should have as a WWII Japanese Admiral has been reported as saying "A rifle behind every blade of grass".
Personally I don't support the Draft in any way, if someone does not want to Volunteer for military service, forcing them is only going to cause problems no matter which way you do it.
I don't Volunteer myself because of various reasons, although if the USA were to be Invaded tomorrow you wouldn't need to even ask me to defend myself, family, friends, etc, I'd be one of the first to grab a rifle & open fire.
Another good Argueing point to use with the Liberals if you ask me
Just my $0.02
(See: 2nd Amendment US Constitution)
We should be as Kim Du-Toit's own website says "A Nation of Riflemen" and should have as a WWII Japanese Admiral has been reported as saying "A rifle behind every blade of grass".
Personally I don't support the Draft in any way, if someone does not want to Volunteer for military service, forcing them is only going to cause problems no matter which way you do it.
I don't Volunteer myself because of various reasons, although if the USA were to be Invaded tomorrow you wouldn't need to even ask me to defend myself, family, friends, etc, I'd be one of the first to grab a rifle & open fire.
Another good Argueing point to use with the Liberals if you ask me
Just my $0.02
Zundfolge
Member
If the second amendment was followed to the letter than I could understand those who oppose a draft no matter what (still maybe not 100% agree, but understand)..
For the most part I agree that forcing citizens to be soldiers is wrong, plus its a bad idea (conscripts generally don't work as hard or fight as well as volunteers, sure some conscripts do, but by and large they are a less effective fighting force).
HOWEVER, if the choice is between having our nation invaded by a foreign army, or having our position in the world downgraded enough that invasion or collapse is clearly down the road then we must be pragmatic and if there aren't enough volunteers than we reinstitute the draft. Yes it sucks, but if we stand on the principal that all drafts are wrong and allow our nation to fall then there WILL be drafts (and likely worse) when the new bosses show up.
Unfortinately this is one of those few areas where libertarian theory just doesn't mesh with harsh reality.
For the most part I agree that forcing citizens to be soldiers is wrong, plus its a bad idea (conscripts generally don't work as hard or fight as well as volunteers, sure some conscripts do, but by and large they are a less effective fighting force).
HOWEVER, if the choice is between having our nation invaded by a foreign army, or having our position in the world downgraded enough that invasion or collapse is clearly down the road then we must be pragmatic and if there aren't enough volunteers than we reinstitute the draft. Yes it sucks, but if we stand on the principal that all drafts are wrong and allow our nation to fall then there WILL be drafts (and likely worse) when the new bosses show up.
Unfortinately this is one of those few areas where libertarian theory just doesn't mesh with harsh reality.
The Iraqi people allowed themselves to be controlled, abused, tortured and dominated by a minority regime for over 30 years. The Afghans, fought off the (other) superpower...only to let a rag-tag bunch of Taliban rabble take over, mostly Pakistanis. The Taliban did as much, if not more damage than the Soviets. Why didn't they fight them? Skin color and religion (name of it only) the same? People often accept unimaginable cruelty and do not fight. There are big cultural differences to be sure, but at the root of it, many people would rather put their head down and hope for a liveable result, than risk their lives to fight for a better world for their children. Often the result is not "liveable" for millions and millions of people...sucks to be them.
If we were invaded, there would no doubt be many seemingly good reasons why we should just go along with our new UN, or Chinese or whoever taskmasters. I mean, the Chinese let Taiwan do it's thing, it would still be America....they'll leave us alone for the profits. Why die just to have our government be soveriegn when we can live the same way, just under a new set of UN world government rules...which only have minor changes for the safety of all people? Yep, plenty of excuses why people wouldn't stand up.
Screw 'em, you'll find me on the "recoil side" of blue helmet 600 meters out if you need me. Can't make a slave out of me...I'll volunteer first! Suckers, I know how to beat that draft system.
-bold added by me. What if you would never be needed to protect your family and friends because you just don't live in a strategic area? You are desperately needed elsewhere along with every able bodied person. If you wait until they get to your town...it might just be the new Gestapo by then, too late. Sure, you are free to die now however you like, or live under the new tyranny you did nothing to stop.
Eleven Mike
Member
I think perhaps if our national security depended on forcing people into military service, then it would be necessary, regardless of what freedoms are infringed.
On the other hand, if our national character becomes so thoroughly degraded that too few of us will volunteer to fight such a war, then we may not be worth saving.
I don't know.
On the other hand, if our national character becomes so thoroughly degraded that too few of us will volunteer to fight such a war, then we may not be worth saving.
I don't know.
Zundfolge
Member
This is also something that many on the left don't get when they put that bumper sticker on their car that says; It Will Be A Great Day When The Schools Will Have All The Money They Need And The Air Force Has To Hold A Bake Sale To Buy A Bomber.
No, it won't because it will mean the military is so under funded that they are going to have to draft your little granola munching sons to defend this country ... that or the enemy will burn your well funded schools after they teach your flower child daughter their version of "free love".
Our well funded military is well funded in part to make sure there are plenty of people who want to sign up so that a draft is less necessary.
No, it won't because it will mean the military is so under funded that they are going to have to draft your little granola munching sons to defend this country ... that or the enemy will burn your well funded schools after they teach your flower child daughter their version of "free love".
Our well funded military is well funded in part to make sure there are plenty of people who want to sign up so that a draft is less necessary.
Warren
Member
This being a gov run program I see many less than excellent outcomes.
For example I could see myself being drafted and end up driving trucks in Florida while some poor Floridian gets drafted and ends up driving trucks up here in NorCal.
What if the "crisis" is country wide? Say I'm already invloved where I live, where my family is, why should I let myself be removed to some other area? I see no upside in leaving my family uncovered. Am I supposed to trust that politicians and bureaucrats know what they are doing? I don't think so.
And the politicians probably caused the problems in the first place. They own up to that and, with their fighting age sons, go into the fray first and I'll think about following them.
For example I could see myself being drafted and end up driving trucks in Florida while some poor Floridian gets drafted and ends up driving trucks up here in NorCal.
What if the "crisis" is country wide? Say I'm already invloved where I live, where my family is, why should I let myself be removed to some other area? I see no upside in leaving my family uncovered. Am I supposed to trust that politicians and bureaucrats know what they are doing? I don't think so.
And the politicians probably caused the problems in the first place. They own up to that and, with their fighting age sons, go into the fray first and I'll think about following them.
Malice
Member
If there was a draft tomorrow, because soldiers were needed in Iraq, I would volunteer ASAP. That is me. I am not a particularly big fan of that particular war, but I would go so someone else would not have to go.
There has been no war in U.S. history that I would not have volunteered for if a draft was announced.
However, the draft is wrong.
For all the talking people on THR do about the principals of our founding fathers, people need to pay more attention to what another poster said on the previous page.
The Founding Fathers warned against ever having a standing army, much less forcing people into a bloated one to fight a war with a country halfway around the world which posesses no way to harm a single U.S. citizen (Vietnam, etc)
There has been no war in U.S. history that I would not have volunteered for if a draft was announced.
However, the draft is wrong.
For all the talking people on THR do about the principals of our founding fathers, people need to pay more attention to what another poster said on the previous page.
The Founding Fathers warned against ever having a standing army, much less forcing people into a bloated one to fight a war with a country halfway around the world which posesses no way to harm a single U.S. citizen (Vietnam, etc)
Eleven Mike
Member
Well spoken, Malice.
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