When Did Auto Loaders Become Prevalent?

[jaydubya]

Tipoc wrote: Semi's, other than the 1911 were looked on as foreign. Not American. Revolvers were American. This is why in movies and TV, in general,the bad guys had semis and the good guys wheelguns. Unless the good guy had a 1911. Good rounds were available for hunting with a wheelgun or for self defense. Only ball ammo was available for a semi.

Excellent analysis, especially the last sentence: "Only ball ammo was available for a semi." As a result, only .45 was considered sufficient ammo; 9mm was for those who like to punch tiny tunnels through people, perhaps several at a time (As in that Indiana Jones movie). The Browning High Power, put on the market in 1935, was the first autoloader with a double stack magazine (Grande Puissance was intended to be translated, "high capacity" not "high power"), but it required ball ammo to load reliably. So ho hum, wimp gun. Then in the eighties, effective, reliably-loading hollow point bullets became available for autoloaders (this required design change of the pistols as well as the cartridge), suddenly the advantage of the revolver's powerful hollow point cartridges was lost to high capacity autoloaders carrying powerful hollow point cartridges. And a very capable autoloading pistol, marketed by an equally capable sales staff, appeared on the market. Did someone just whisper, "Glock?"

Personally, my T-series BHP (with a polished feed ramp) still is the best of the autoloaders; bought it in 1967. But Glocks are right up there.

Cordially, Jack

 

[makarovnik]

Mid-80's. Magnum PI and Miami Vice era. Sledge hammer did carry a .44 magnum revolver though. You guys remember him don't you?

 

[hhb]

I think the tide started when the Illinois State Police adopted the S&W model 39 9mm in the late 60's.

 

[Pilot]

The bad guys often had Lugers. I could never figure out why the bad guys got the neat guns.

The bad guys often carried Lugers or P-38's. The reason being, during the Cold War, TV and movie's wanted to depict the Eastern Bloc bad guys and spies as ex-Nazis or like ex-Nazis. The East German connection was often played up. It was unusual to see good guys with these guns but it did happen in shows like "The Man from U.N.C.L.E."

 

[Phil DeGraves]

The Browning High Power, put on the market in 1935, was the first autoloader with a double stack magazine

No, both the Mauser 1896 "Broomhandle" and the Savage 1910 had double stack magazines and preceded the HP by decades.

 

[BlindJustice]

The 1930s was preceded by:
First Semi-Auto with Double Action First shot the
1929 Walther PP later the PPK
.380 Auto Blowback but Police in Europe used em.
1935 - JMB's successor finishes the design adding at
the French request for the first full size
High Capacity 9mm Luger
Browning Hi-Power
THen Walther and the
P-38

In the USA we had a lot of Epic, "B" movies, and Westerns on
the TV TOOB. Colt SAA. No wonder Europe doesn't have the revovler
heritage, no big revo maker - they do prize S&Ws.


Speaking of, I SPy Kelly RObinson (Robert Culp) used a P-38 and
ALexander Scott (Bill Cosby) used a Colt Commander which
like Tom Selleck's Magnum was a 9MM that's what they use for blanks
in Hollywood.

Movie Ronan - De Niro's the older U.S. Agent and asks the french secret
police for a 1911 and gets called grandpa. Later on he does a nice series of double taps and reloads and continues.

TheBrits used the contract S&W, COlt as well as the old Webley revos until sometime after WWII the BHP served them well.

Let's see I have 4 S&W Revolvers, and two semi-autos, a S&W 1911 and a recently aquired CZ 75B - the wonder 9 that was in high demand for a low supply until the Iron CUrtain fell.

 

[jaydubya]

Phil DeGraves wrote: both the Mauser 1896 "Broomhandle" and the Savage 1910 had double stack magazines and preceded the HP by decades.

Didn't know that. Thanks.
Cordially, Jack

 

[RustyShackelford]

ammo-semi auto pistols...

I think because most US ammo in the 60s/70s/80s was not so great, the revolvers(mostly the old warhorse, .357magnum ) stayed in the hands of most LEOs/armed citizens. When more semi auto pistols were made/sold improved loads were designed and then the pistol replaced the 6 shot Rooney guns.

Fun gun fact; In the first Dirty Harry film, 1971, the prop dept used a big N frame .41magnum not a .44mag, . In the DH films, the propmaster/Clint Eastwood would carry/hold different sizes of the model 29 .44magnum too.
For example, Eastwood would wear a 6" barrel model 29 in a shoulder holster but point a big 8 3/8" N frame in close ups.

Rusty

 

[Mk VII]

I wouldn't necessarily use Hollywood as a guide to social trends of this type.

It's a lot easier to make revolvers work with blanks than autos .

 

[Drail]

Don Johnson on Miami Vice singlehandedly accomplished the big switch in one season. Don't you guys remember this show? Every cop in the U.S. suddenly decided they NEEDED a magazine fed weapon. And Mk VII is right, getting Johnson's gun to function with blanks for one scene was a nightmare. If you watch closely almost every shot he fired showed a locked back slide that the camera quickly cut away from.

 

[RustyShackelford]

SoF magazine, Miami Vice...

I bought a issue of Soldier of Fortune magazine in the mid-80s when Miami Vice was very popular. The magazine explained that Michael Mann wanted to use stainless steel and nickeled firearms as much as they could because they looked better on film, this is very true, . The news story also said the props dept would load blanks with higher muzzle flashes to look more dramatic. This factor combined with the less than stable semi auto pistols of the era, , may have led to the feeding problems/jams.

The series did have many cool gunfights/shooting scenes. I still remember Don Johnson's Sonny Crockett slide across a large mall floor shooting about 4 or 5 .45acp rounds at some jewelry store robbers.

Rusty

 

[Quoheleth]

Fun gun fact; In the first Dirty Harry film, 1971, the prop dept used a big N frame .41magnum not a .44mag,

As I understood it, it was actually a hand-built .44 Magnum, as all of the Maggies in the pipeline were already designated for customers. Give Smith credit, they didn't bump any "average joe" orders for the sake of H'wood!

But you know, even as late as the late '90s, on Walker Texas Ranger, Church Norris began the series with a revolver (686, maybe?) in a crossdraw holster, interestingly enough, but went to the autoloader about season 3 (Beretta 92-stainless, I think) that was at 3 o'clock on his belt.

COuplea observations...
Q

 

[akodo]

I remember eddie murphy carrying what I believe was a browning hipower in the first Beverly Hills Cop, when the two beverly detectives where both carrying revolvers, as were all the beat cops.

 

[tipoc]

What the flicks and TV did was reflect the change that was occurring in real life. They did not drive it.

On Dirty Harry, the actual story is that the director wanted a 8 3/4" M29 they could not find one so they settled for a 6". But it was always a M29 that was used in the films. Nothing hand built, not a .41 just a stock M29.

tipoc

 

[RustyShackelford]

Dirty Harry/Walker Texas Ranger...

I am almost sure it was a .41 magnum in the first Dirty Harry film but I'd have to research it.

For the Chuck Norris TV series; Walker Texas Ranger, I think Ranger Walker started with a N frame stainless .44 S&W 629 model or maybe a 627 .357. Norris had to switch weapons because of a dispute with the film producers of LoneWolf MacQuade who claimed Chuck Norris stole the Texas Ranger character from that film for the new TV show, . The first Walker film was a TV pilot/movie called; "One Riot, One Ranger", www.imdb.com . Norris later used a Taurus PT-92 stainless and then a S&W pistol. I'm not sure if the were 9mmNATO or .40S&W. I could tell it was a Taurus because of the frame mounted safety, . Why Norris had Walker use the smaller S&W pistol in later seasons I do not know either. Maybe it was easy to carry and did not get in the way in fight scenes like the other sidearms, .

Rusty

 

[BlindJustice]

Hey these DIrty Harry stories are urban myth.... it has been de-bumked
by S&W Historian Roy Jenks - Eastwood used a Model 29 .44 Magnum and at the time it was filmed it was at least 15 years before S&W changed from
making 29s with the 6 1/2" Bbl. to a 6" Bbl. The longer barrel 8 3/8" was NOT used - funny what some camera lens leads the imagination.

Randall

 

[tipoc]

Blind Justice is right on the barrel lengths, I mistated my fractions.

tipoc

 

[RustyShackelford]

I luv My Highroad.org...

I heard this from a video with disgraced Second Chance founder Richard Chance many years ago and if S&W expert Roy Jinks explained this fact then I'd think it's true...

I loves my HighRoad.org ...

RS

PS: There is no way you can tell me Eastwood's Dirty Harry does not have a 8 3/8 inch .44magnum in some scenes/movie stills. I think it's the big 8 3/8" barrel .44 in the movie poster/ad for The Dead Pool.

 

[Defensory]

My guess is that they used the 8 3/8" barrel for at least some of the publicity stills, posters etc.

But in the actual Dirty Harry movies, I'm pretty sure he carried only the 6.5". The photo below clearly looks like the 6.5:

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Well said, tipoc.

H&K P9S $179.00

Now that just stings.....

 

[akodo]

Jaydubya writes

Then in the eighties, effective, reliably-loading hollow point bullets became available for autoloaders (this required design change of the pistols as well as the cartridge), suddenly the advantage of the revolver's powerful hollow point cartridges was lost to high capacity autoloaders carrying powerful hollow point cartridges. And a very capable autoloading pistol, marketed by an equally capable sales staff, appeared on the market. Did someone just whisper, "Glock?"

I could have swore I heard Beretta and Smith 39, not glock.

Browning Hi-Power set the type as the first high capacity semiauto handgun *
Smith and Wesson has the insight to make it double action, combining their model 39 with the HP magazine to be the model 59 however, it was the Beretta 92 that really was the 'And a very capable autoloading pistol, marketed by an equally capable sales staff'

It was Smith 59s and Beretta 92s that did most of the replacing of old model 10 and model 19 wheelguns.

Glock didn't intorduce the first successful double stack 9, their claim to fame is basically copying the desired features of the Beretta 92 and the Smith 59, but making heavy use of polymer. Glock was Step 3, Browning was Step 1, Beretta 92/Smith 59 was Step 2.

I suppose we can turn back to Smith and Wesson for Step 4, emergence of the 40 SW



*Ill also include "decent cartridge handgun" to skip the Savage 1910 which was a double stack 32acp and ill also include "magazine-in-grip" to differentiate it from mauser of the day which had a top loading magazine in front of the trigger guard"

 

[2ndamd]

If you look at the BOJS (Bereau of Justice Satistics) Homocides were gradually decreasing in this country for many years.

Then, BAM! In 1985 the homocide stats are shooting straight up (no pun intended).

What happen in 1985 to warrent such a dramatic rise in homicide deaths?

Crack cocaine. But, it was not the new drug itself that was casuing the deaths. It was the un-organized distribution and fighting of gangs to control it's distribution that lead to these deaths.

Same thing happen during prohibition. Many bloody battles over who was going to control the booze .... money....power..... judges and .....politicians.

I could go on and on. But suffice it to say that LE felt outgunned and their perceived need for more "firepower" lead the transition to autos. In particular DA autos with hi-capacity magazines.

I always liked Sherriff Jim Wilson's comments on this. He said [if you ever are attacked by the fabled biker gang. The appropriate response is to reverently repeat "feet don't fail me now!" ]

The un-organized distribution of crack cocaine and the resulting rise in homocides does make one think of the Mafia's organized efforts in regards to opiate based drugs, the Biker's control of Meth based drugs, and the Columbian/ Cuban connection with Cocoa based drugs.

That is a topic for another day.

 

[Archie]

It didn't happen all at once. Tipoc does a very good job of an overview. I remember it slightly different, but probably not enough to argue much.

Some highlights.

1927-1928, Colt introduces the Super .38 Automatic in the 1911 frame. This was directed toward lawmen, specifically the FBI, to shoot at cars with heavier than before bodywork. A small uptick in autopistol use by individual lawmen. One notes FBI SA Melvin Purvis was carrying a Colt Government Model in .45 ACP when John Dillinger was apprehended/killed.

The Illinois State Police adopted the S&W M39 as a duty weapon in the late 1960s. I think that was the first major law enforcement agency to issue semi-autos.

1980s gave rise to many TV shows showing heros carrying semi-automatic pistols. Most of the change was based on the 'shooting sports' of men like Jeff Cooper and others; the producers and directors were striving to be 'cutting edge'. This sort of thing impresses watchers, including cops and bureaucrats who really don't know that much about guns in the first place.

1992, Los Angeles Police Department changed from double action revolvers to Model 92 Berettas. This resulting in a three fold increase in shots fired to accomplish the same number of offenders wounded the same number of times.

In general, Europe was far ahead of the United States in adopting semi-auto pistols. This primarily because their revolvers really, really stank. The European never could make a double action revolver as elegant and functional as the Smith and Wesson. The Webley was a good contender, but all in all, just didn't measure up.

As mentioned, the only serious defense semi-auto pistol in the US was the Government Model. The GI 45 was seen by many as having 'fierce recoil' and being unreliable; neither accusation being particularly valid. Still, it intimidated many for a long time. The next semi-auto pistol available in the US was the Browning High-Power. It was somewhat suspect, being foreign made by the Belgians. Smith and Wesson introduced the Model 39 in the middle 50s. It was another 9x19 pistol - the Luger round - and seemed to many as a complex and mysterious gizmo. Not to mention the magazines could be lost and then were are you?

I really think most of the objections to autopistols were overcome or diminished by two factors: "Combat", later IPSC, shooting convinced many of the shooting fraternity and repeated exposure on television convinced the 'masses'. Like many things, it's all marketing.

Not many people accepted 'foreign' cars when they first arrived, either.

 

[skinewmexico]

I blame Sonny Crockett and the Bren 10.

 

[FEG]

however, it was the Beretta 92 that really was the 'And a very capable autoloading pistol, marketed by an equally capable sales staff'

It was Smith 59s and Beretta 92s that did most of the replacing of old model 10 and model 19 wheelguns.

The book CZ-75: Birth of a Legend is pretty telling in this regard. I do not remember the exact phrasing, but the book goes to great lengths to explain the international market of the 1960s-1970s.

Basically, CZ-UB managment wanted to modernize and expand the Uhersky Brod facility to guarantee it would remain open. (After collectivization, several arms factories were converted to civilian production, only Uhersky Brod and Brno remained.) In order to do so, foreign capital would be required to expand into investment casting, etc. The obvious product was a 9mm handgun that would require adoption of the new equipment, techniques, and processes CZ-UB wanted.

This was in the mid-1960s. Looking around the globe, CZ-UB recognized that 9mm was primed to become the world's dominant handgun cartridge, assuming it had not already done so. Problematically, there were still a lot of WWII surplus arms and ammunition available at that time. In other words, CZ had a plan, make a high capacity 9mm with DA capability, but no real market for it. This gave Koucy the time he needed to develop the pistol. It also gave CZ the opportunity to lobby for the changes needed at Uhersky Brod.

At this point in the book, the authors go to some length to explain that the CZ is more closely related to the S&W 1st generation autos than the SIG p-210. (Interestingly enough, the CZ 75 really does have a lot more in common with a S&W Model 59 than a SIG P-210.)

The CZ 75 was actually completed before the Beretta 92FS, but the authors make it very clear that the Beretta established the market for the CZ. That is, the success of the Beretta enabled CZ to sell its pistols to various nations and/or agencies that could not get Berettas (demand, politics, relative expense, etc.).

I thought this was very compelling reading for anyone who owns a CZ or is interested in the development of 9mm designs. Basically, CZ is saying that the Model 59 and 92FS paved the way for the acceptance of new 9mm handguns in the West.