When do children become adults?

[Jeff White]

This thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=137872
got me thinking about the mixed signals we give young people as to when they grow up.

It seems that you are grown up enough to participate in adult activities when whatever activst, advocacy group that wants to restrict that activity says you are.

Here in Illinois you are an adult as it pertains to the criminal justice system at 17. You can vote at 18. Back in the 70s, after the youth movement that sprung out of the Vietnam War, you could drink beer and wine at 19 and hard liquor at 21. That poorly written law lasted all of 3 years. No one liked it, not the bar and restaurant owners, not the anti drinking advocates..only the 19-21 years olds liked it. Later the influence of groups like MADD got uniform drinking laws throughout the country set at 21.

You can join the military at 17 with parental consent, but you're not a deployable asset until your 18 because of a UN treaty that was signed. But here in Illinois you can't get a FOID card with your parent signing off on it until you're 21. A law was passed last year to change that and the governor vetoed it.

The insurance industry lobby is now pushing graduated drivers licenses. IIRC 35 states do not extend full driving privledges until you are 18 and some model legislation would raise that to 21 or even 25.

Now we have legislation pending to put 17 years olds back into the juvenile justice system here in Illinois:
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ne...F15E1B01AF1F9EB386256FF70013C7AE?OpenDocument

Pending bill would allow 17-year-olds to enter juvenile justice system
By Matt Franck
Post-Dispatch Jefferson City Bureau
05/04/2005

JEFFERSON CITY - From a legal standpoint, 17 is a tricky age, particularly for teens who are a year shy of adulthood in Missouri and Illinois.

The two states are among the few nationwide that do not allow 17-year-olds to enter the juvenile justice system. Critics say that sets up a legal limbo for 17-year-olds who are considered adults in court but not in life.

Legislation pending in both Missouri and Illinois would require juvenile systems to receive youths until their 18th birthday.

Supporters say the measures would help provide more suitable services to older adolescents, while giving parents more options.


But the prospects for either bill passing may be dim, given the potential cost of expanding juvenile programs. Court officials in both states say the juvenile systems already are overburdened.

Rep. Bryan Stevenson, R-Webb City, said he was sponsoring the Missouri bill as much for parents as he was for youths.

He said many parents struggled with rebellious 17-year-olds who are aware they cannot be hauled into juvenile court for dropping out of school or disobeying curfews. At the same time parents are often responsible for their children's actions as minors.

Melissa Sickmund, a researcher for the National Center for Juvenile Justice in Pittsburgh, said parents in states such as Missouri and Illinois were trapped in a confusing set of laws.

"The parents are responsible for 17-year-olds, and yet if they commit a crime, they are hauled off to criminal court and treated as if they are 40," she said.

The bills in Missouri and Illinois would allow 17-year-olds to be tried as adults if a judge transferred them to adult criminal court.

The Illinois Senate approved the juvenile justice bill, but it has stalled in the House over concerns that it would overburden the juvenile system with hundreds of 17-year-olds.

The bill's sponsor, Sen. John Cullerton, D-Chicago, said he questions that assumption. He said judges would still likely send more serious offenders to adult criminal court. Others would be placed on probation, just as they are now, he said.

The Missouri bill is facing similar resistance. A legislative analysis estimates that it could cost $68 million, as the state would be forced to construct new juvenile correction centers for 17-year-olds. Stevenson says the estimate may not fully count savings in the adult corrections system.

Regardless of whether the estimate is accurate, juvenile court officials across Missouri are opposed to Stevenson's bill. A survey done by the Missouri Juvenile Justice Association shows court officials from nearly every circuit believe that serving 17-year-olds would make them less able to help younger offenders.

"What it would result in is that we would have less manpower to work with kids that are 16 and under," said Kip Seely, administrator of the St. Louis County Family Court.

Seely estimates that the bill would add at least 3,000 referrals to the St. Louis County Family Court each year.

Seely questions whether the juvenile court would be much help to parents of 17-year-olds. He said parents of younger teens often have a hard time getting assistance, since most services are offered only to serious offenders.

Some parents say that until the state resolves the issue, many 17-year-olds will continue to exploit their peculiar legal status.

The Missouri bill is HB572. The Illinois bill is SB458.

Reporter Matthew Franck
E-mail: [email protected]
Phone: 573-635-6178

This bill if passed would put this man, into the Juvenile Justice System:
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ne...63E9A10EA3EC2DF286256FFA0006A47D?OpenDocument

Teenager is accused of rapes in East St. Louis
By Doug Moore
Of the Post-Dispatch
05/07/2005

Turns 18 today

Maurice D. Brown lives in the East St. Louis neighborhood where at least seven women have been raped in the past nine months. On Friday, the day before his 18th birthday, Brown was charged with breaking into the homes of three of those women and sexually assaulting them.

Police say Brown is a "person of interest" in four other rapes, but they refused to discuss the ongoing investigation. However, police and city officials emphasized that East St. Louis residents should feel safer with Brown off the streets.

"I'm happy that the citizens of East St. Louis will be able to sleep easier tonight," said Capt. Craig Koehler of the Illinois State Police.

The State Police joined the investigation in February at the request of East St. Louis Police Chief Marion Hubbard. State troopers stepped up patrols in the city's central corridor where the rapes occurred.

Police say the case broke when Brown was arrested on Wednesday and accused of trying to carjack an employee at a Popeye's Chicken about a half-mile from his home in the 2900 block of Renshaw Avenue. The female employee saw Brown in the back of her car and called police. He was charged with unlawful use of a weapon.

After talking with Brown, police were able to link him to three rapes, Hubbard said. Police would not say whether Brown admitted to the rapes or if there could be a second man involved, as police had said earlier.

Police said the attacks Brown is charged with happened on March 5 in the 1800 block of Cleveland Avenue; April 4 in the 1600 block of St. Louis Avenue; and April 5 in the 1400 block of St. Louis Avenue.

Brown was being held Friday in the St. Clair County Jail, with bond set at $500,000.

News that police had a man in custody for the rapes was welcome news to women who work and live in East St. Louis.

"Hey, they caught the rapist!" shouted Sybilfelita Cox, 49, to co-workers at the St. Joseph Head Start Center at 15th Street and Martin Luther King Boulevard. Cox said she and a co-worker changed their morning routines after word got out that there was a serial rapist in town.

"We'd call each other before we left for work and then whoever got here first would wait to get out of the car until the other one arrived," Cox said.

Renata Muhammad, 41, also a teacher at the Head Start center, said the search for the rapist made for tense times at work, where a father of one of the students was questioned by police and volunteered a DNA sample. He looked like the composite that police had posted in the community and was one of at least 20 men that volunteered for DNA testing, Muhammad said.

"I'm relieved for myself and all the women in East St. Louis," Muhammad said.

We need one standard as to when the age of majority is. If it's 18 then it should be 18. That means 18 to serve your country, vote, drink, drive withh full privledges and go to the big boy's jail if you mess up. I don't think we're doing anyone any good by extending official childhood to meet someone's political or financial agenda.

Jeff

 

[sm]

We need one standard as to when the age of majority is. If it's 18 then it should be 18.

Agree, I have no problem with the age of 18.

That means 18 to serve your country, vote, drink, drive withh full privledges and go to the big boy's jail if you mess up.

- Responsiblity used to be taught by parents in the home.Thank goodness many families still do.
Liberals prefer to indoctrinate today's youth.

I don't think we're doing anyone any good by extending official childhood to meet someone's political or financial agenda.

Same persons who have YET to take responsibilitis for themselves, or the folks they represent. Same folks that still cannot keep knees together,and/or have a problem with repetitive elbow bending.

 

[thorn726]

thoughts, and a GREAT joke in there

oh it's such an impossible judgement.

there are so many variables.

we like letting 18 year olds with less than long distance judgement intgo the military cuz they wont wrry as much about being killed.

we dont like letting under 21 drink cause they dont care enough if they get killed.

i think a person is an adult when they realize they are one in five billion+, that any wrong move on earth can be the end of you, and that what happens today has great impact on how tomorrow will go.
\
like i said its an impossible judgement. some people figure it out younger, some never figure it out ever. and then there are all the levels.

in some things, i feel like im a hundred years old. other times i know i am coming off like a total kid..............


OK= here's my joke on it, i hope no one finds it offensive, it's really just a cute joke=

when it comes to women, it is EASy to tell if they are adult or not.

ha ha. call a lady a "little girl".
her response will tell you the answer.
the woman knows it is a compliment, a term of endearment, and has no problem with it.
the little girl gets upset, offended, "i am NOT a little girl".

really , i hope you don't find it offensive, but i do take it a little serious, and my sister (an MD/PhD for real) actually thought i should do a study on this theory, expanded it's fairly interesting.

so it's crazy, it is really more a mindset than an actual age, and there are sort of averages, but there are always exceptions.

like my test above, almost every woman under 22 gets mad, i have never had a woman over 30 get upset at the comment. BUT= last week a 19 year old girl was totally cool with it, and really, she was put thru some stuff and was quite mature for her age (RARE, and yeah so my ladies are 20 years apart, so what i dont date them at the same time)

when it comes to cirmes, wow that is even tougher. i think putting anyone in prison is torture i mean prisons are horrible.
but ok- a kid does a murder.
why cant they serve 20 years, but stay in youth facility at least until they are 18 or more?

i understand adult size punishment, but putting a little kid in with people who have already BEEN in prison for years, i mean this is again tantamount to torture

 

[Barbara]

That would be because the ones over 30 think you're quite likely deranged and don't want to disturb you further.

 

[jefnvk]

Honestly, I don't think you can set an age. I have met 16 year olds who I'd trust more than some 30 year olds.

I do agree though, that everything needs to be standardized. Whether it be 18 (preferably, most people at 18 should be adults), 21, or somewhere else, it needs to be one age.

Honestly, sometimes I think the continual raising of legal ages is just some parent's attempt to keep their children as kids for longer.

 

[thorn726]

That would be because the ones over 30 think you're quite likely deranged and don't want to disturb you further.

hahahahahah
you're probably right!!!
heheh

 

[shermacman]

In Floridah a 13-year old girl can have an abortion without her parents' consent.

Makes the little girl an adult, right?

 

[Standing Wolf]

Police said the attacks Brown is charged with happened on March 5 in the 1800 block of Cleveland Avenue...

I wonder whether that was aggravated what happened or just regular what happened.

People who can't write should content themselves with flipping hamburgers.

 

[zahc]

Let us not forget handgun laws. At 19, I've been living on my own for about a year, pay my own rent, buy, insure and liscense my own vehicles, manage my own finances, the whole nine. I am an adult with adult assets and responsibilities, but I cannot be trusted to keep a handgun in my home.

 

[jefnvk]

zahc, is it legal to buy one from a private seller in OH at 18? Just something to think about.

EDIT: same thing goes for NFA weapons. Can't get until you are 21

 

[PMDW]

As far as I know, you can own a handgun at 18, but you can't purchase one from a licensed FFL dealer, or carry it. Both of which I disagree with. At 18 you can join the military and shoot people with belt fed automatic weapons, but when you're not at work you can't be trusted with a handgun.

Age to get a carry permit should be 18, but as I understand, that's a state thing.

 

[cracked butt]

If I had things my way, I'd lower the drinking age to 16 and raise the driving age to 18.

Let me explain:

When I was a teenager, my parents allowed me to drink in their presence or in the presence of of thier friends, who happened to be the parents of my friends. I learned my limits and how much I could drink, and to be able to imbibe without becoming a complete jackass. Off to college I went, and I did drink there socially, but rarely lost control of myself, with the exception of once when I really did cut loose in the presence of trusted friends on my birthday- I ended up yacking into a toilet that night, but that was the only time I made an ass out of myself. I saw a lot of kids in college that never had any kind of parental guidance when it came to things like alcohol who turned into alcoholics, many of them dropping out of college because they couldn't balance their new found freedom and the exposure to unlimited supplies of alcohol with their academic pursuits. I even knew a few people that died- one of alcohol poisoning and another of a car wreck due to drinking- both had never tasted alcohol until they were free from their parents.

I'm not saying that drinking is a virtuous activity or that it should be encouraged, but college kids are going to experiment with it, just like they experiment with sex and drugs.


Driving- I don't think too many 16 or 17 year old boys are mature enough to drive, period. When I was that age, all I wanted to do was jump in a car and see how fast I could go, how fast I could make it go around corners, and try to make the biggest burnouts with it from stopsigns. When I was that age, I thought I knew it all, thought I was a superb driver, and I would bet that most other boys my age thought the same of themselves. Its a fact that at least in males, the brain activity between a 16 year old and someone 5 or 6 years older is very very different. Looking back, I was probably 18 or 19 before I was an adult, judging by my standards now, and I still feel that I was ahead of the curve by a bit, mainly because I had cut the financial ties with my parents when I was 17 to go out and start a life of my own, on my own terms- those that do the same or enlist in the military seem to mature a lot faster. I rememember working with a 18 year old in a factory who was kind of an irresponsible clown, he joined the army, 12 weeks or so later he came back to work after boot camp, and he was definately an adult. Nowadays, there are a lot of 30 year old children who still live in their parents' basements.

 

[PMDW]

Driving- I don't think too many 16 or 17 year old boys are mature enough to drive, period. When I was that age, all I wanted to do was jump in a car and see how fast I could go, how fast I could make it go around corners, and try to make the biggest burnouts with it from stopsigns.

I hate to say it, but you were an immature little kid.

I'm 17. Why would I want to see how fast I could go? The speedometer tells me without even trying, much less getting an expensive speeding ticket and/or losing my license. Why the hell am I going to try to find the line between taking a corner as fast as I can and taking a corner too fast and slamming into a tree? What's the sense in doing burnouts? It messes up your tires, and those things are expensive.

Don't punish me because you and your friends were a little too carefree.

 

[WT]

When do children become adults?

When they have moved out of the house and become financially independent of their parents!

 

[zahc]

zahc, is it legal to buy one from a private seller in OH at 18?

TTBOMK it is not legal for a person under 21 to be in posession of a handgun unless directly supervised by a non-minor.

It's a pretty hazy part of the law and I've heard a lot of conflicting things about it, but that's the way it reads to me.

Besides, I still can't buy handgun ammo. They will sell me all the 12ga slugs, 50bmg and 300wsm I want, but I have to have an older friend sneak me .380s.

No person under twenty-one years of age shall purchase or attempt to purchase a handgun, provided that this division does not apply to the purchase or attempted purchase of a handgun by a person eighteen years of age or older and under twenty-one years of age if the person eighteen years of age or older and under twenty-one years of age is a law enforcement officer who is properly appointed or employed as a law enforcement officer and has received firearms training approved by the Ohio peace officer training council or equivalent firearms training.

A) No person shall do any of the following:




(1) Sell any firearm to a person who is under eighteen years of age;




(2) Subject to division (B) of this section, sell any handgun to a person who is under twenty-one years of age;




(3) Furnish any firearm to a person who is under eighteen years of age or, subject to division (B) of this section, furnish any handgun to a person who is under twenty-one years of age, except for lawful hunting, sporting, or educational purposes, including, but not limited to, instruction in firearms or handgun safety, care, handling, or marksmanship under the supervision or control of a responsible adult;

 

[cracked butt]

I hate to say it, but you were an immature little kid.

No doubt about it. But I hate to say it, you are the exception and not the rule.

 

[pax]

My sig.

pax

A boy becomes an adult three years before his parents think he does, and about two years after he thinks he does. -- Lewis B Hershey

 

[jefnvk]

don't think too many 16 or 17 year old boys are mature enough to drive, period.

Dunno, I never had a problem at 16 or 17. Never had a ticket, never did anything stupid. Still don't, and haven't.

Like I believe, it has to do alot with the individual. Most people don't believe I am as young as I am, because of my looks and maturity combined. They usually think I am about 4-5 years older than I am, and this has been going on for years.

If only there were some rite of passage that would happen to each person, but not necessairialy at the same age...

 

[PMDW]

No doubt about it. But I hate to say it, you are the exception and not the rule.

Maybe it is you who were the exception and not the rule. If most teenagers drove the way you described, we'd have alot more crashes. Of all my male friends age 15-17, I can't name any that drive like you say you did.

 

[cracked butt]

Or... maybe you just know it all already, and I'll shut up and listen

 

[PMDW]

Or... maybe you just know it all already, and I'll shut up and listen

That may very well be.

 

[cracked butt]

I'll give you a lot of credit. You are interested in Guns, RKBA, and hanging out on a failry intellectual board like this at your age. When I was your age, all I cared about was football and chasing skirts. I did date the prom queen, I played varsity footaball and graduated at the top 1/4 of my class, so I figured as much that I had my stuff together more than most of the peons my age at the time. Maybe things are different these days, That did not stop me from taking big risks, though I never got caught

 

[Byron Quick]

Maybe it is you who were the exception and not the rule. If most teenagers drove the way you described, we'd have alot more crashes. Of all my male friends age 15-17, I can't name any that drive like you say you did.

Okay, paragon of teenaged virtue, tell you what: look up the driving statistics for your age group and then write a report for what you found. I, too, knew many teenagers who did not drive recklessly. The vast majority belonged to one of two subsets of teenagers, i.e, most female teenagers and male teenagers who did not have access to a car to drive.

 

[bjbarron]

Biologically the human is considered truly adult in their early twenties...that's the age at which the brain finally matures into the pattern which will continue thru adulthood.

Teenagers may look physically mature, but their brains certainly are not. Even the recognition of the facial expression of emotion in others is stunted until the brain matures. For example, many studies have shown that teenagers cannot realize that someone is showing anger or concern just by the look on that persons face. Many parents of teenagers get frustated because their kids don't seem to realize how PO'd the parent is if the parent doesn't actually speak to the anger. Weird but true.

I think the minimum age for whatever should be a sliding scale to take this biological morphogenesis into consideration.

The prime age for the military has always been young...by the time you get into your middle twenties, you are not as tractable as the military needs. Drinking and driving require maturity, and I think there should be some age limit on them.

While there are always exceptions to the rule, like you and I were, the truth is that young people are not physically or mentally ready for some challenges until they are in their twenties. Just a fact of nature.

 

[PMDW]

Okay, paragon of teenaged virtue, tell you what: look up the driving statistics for your age group and then write a report for what you found. I, too, knew many teenagers who did not drive recklessly. The vast majority belonged to one of two subsets of teenagers, i.e, most female teenagers and male teenagers who did not have access to a car to drive.

Pass. Believe it or not, your opinions don't mean that much to me.

It's just that stereotypes (in which I am included) piss me off.