When do you want a full-auto gun?

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dbooksta

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The NSSF is starting a “Modern Sporting Rifle” campaign to get people to stop calling semi-auto black rifles “assault” weapons. They suggest that the “assault” term applies only to fully automatic firearms. I don’t disagree with the campaign, since the term was coined to sow confusion and fear about guns.

But it reminds me of a question I have had for a while: When is a fully automatic firearm tactically advantageous?

AFAIK a select-fire gun, if available, would always be preferred to a semi-auto gun because when ammunition and conditions permit you would always prefer to deliver three-round bursts to a target you’re trying to put down than a single round with each trigger pull. (Of course, if ammo is limited or precision is required you would stick to single-shot mode.) Following this argument, everyone who carries a Glock 17, for example, would absolutely rather carry a Glock 18 if they had the option. And training and tactics for self-defense would make liberal use of its full-auto mode.

AFAIK, the only other purpose for a full-auto weapon is to lay down suppressive fire to support advancing or retreating. But this is not a tactic that would normally be attempted with a fully-automatic version of any current civilian-legal firearm. Rather, this role is ideally met with “squad” automatic weapons – i.e., rifles that sport one or more of the following features: (1) shoot from an open bolt; (2) accept drum magazines or linked ammunition; (3) allow for rapid barrel changes. Also, suppressive fire would never be tactically expedient unless the shooter had both a copious supply of ammunition and a rifle with the aforementioned features.

Are these assessments correct? Am I missing any other reasons for full-auto firearms (of course, other than the fact that they are a hoot to shoot and a great way to burn up spare ammo)?
 
When is a fully automatic firearm tactically advantageous?
For civilian SD use, never.

Most untrained folks can't hit anything.
But you can hit a lot of things you don't want to hit, and you can't even begin to carry enough ammo to feed one.

rc
 
Bad lighting conditions combined with moving targets at variable (but short) distances. Short bursts + point&shoot - works for me.

Also, I would NOT use full auto when providing cover, because you end up spending all your ammo very fast, and that is not a good thing in a real situation. I do not know about your armed forces, but in ours we do not have unlimited supplies (apprx. 180/day per soldier here).
 
When is a fully automatic firearm tactically advantageous?

In any situation likely to be encountered by an armed citizen, most likely never. And since we don't usually discuss military and LE operations here... I doubt there's much more for us to say on the matter.

But in case anyone thinks they can make a case to the contrary, we'll give 'em a few hours to try.

lpl
 
I pretty much agree with the OP. Even when my soldiers ask me when they get to shoot full-auto, I tell them not to worry about it, they need to get their slow-fire game together for their rifle qual. I want their first shot hitting the mark before they even touch the happy switch.
 
Even in Uncle Sam's Hunt Club I think I preferred single-shot to even three round burst for anything but supressive/covering fire. And three rounds per pop do just fine for cover/supression. It may be different nowadays, but with the M60 and then the SAW we were always taught 6 - 8 round bursts. I could see full burn, barrel-melting mayhem only when facing "human wave" attacks (a la Korea).

But in the civilian world it's hard to imagine that scenario, even in the event of SHTF. Well, 'cept maybe zombies. I'd want one then. No, head shots for zombies, iirc. Ok, no full auto for civy is my final answer. :D
 
If law+order broke down (Katrina - L.A.)and looters are driving around and possibly firing from vehicles, wouldn't a full-auto be useful in incapacitating their vehicle and ending their joy-ride?
 
I might see a psychological advantage to one in an 'angry mob' scenario, or protecting your business from masses of looters...
 
And no TJ. I would call emptying a magazine into the radiator of a charging vehicle a measure that would stop them about five minutes after they turned me into road pizza. Controlled fire at the driver has a much higher chance of stopping the vehicle.
 
Back in Jeff Cooper's day, he ran a bunch of tests out at Gunsite in order to determine if the subgun would outperform a traditional handgun (1911 of course). I believe they were using Uzi's if I'm not mistaken.

The Uzi shooters ALWAYS lost to the 1911 guys.............they just couldn't keep their rounds on target. As the old man said "Only hits count".

Just to clarify, the Uzi shooters in the tests were skilled users, not novices.
 
typically... it isnt... I would say it is possibly warranted if the enemy is engaging you with full auto... even then, only to provide suppression fire to allow time for someone who is actually aiming their weapon to take out the threatening party.

time for someone to pick my answer apart... 3...2...1.....go!!!
 
Clarence's post reminded me of my old range buddy, who was a private contract soldier in El Salvador. On his first night he was given an Uzi and two magazines. In the darkness he saw 3 intruders crossing the perimeter and fired upon them. In just a few seconds, his two Uzi mags were empty and he was left with an M9 pistol with two magazines. And three unharmed intruders shooting at him. He learned a very important lesson about fire control that night.

So, my answer to the OP is this: How many civilians have learned that important lesson about fire control? None?
 
Frankly when I was a soldier we had a lot of ammo to burn and got allowed to run our M-16's full auto on the Known distance range. The target frame is 6x6 foot, bulleye was about 6 inches. We all shot a couple of magazines from prone position and then went to inspect our handiwork. Our result were dismal!! Maybe 10 hits on the 6x6 paper!! I think with a burst capable rifle the results would of been a little better.
Lastly, we were members of the All Army Rifle team!!! So, with a big A@@ truck of ammo, let it rip, but misses don't count.
 
How about police SWAT/tactical teams? They're issued full auto weapons such as the MP5 and M4 Carbine, are trained in their use and carry and use them for warrants, barricades, etc. quite effectively. Could not a situation arrise in which a regular old citizen's limited use of a full auto weapon be advantageous?

If some of you are making the assumption that the only valid usages for full auto weapons is for military suppresive fire applications then obviously that isn't actually true.
 
And no TJ. I would call emptying a magazine into the radiator of a charging vehicle a measure that would stop them about five minutes after they turned me into road pizza. Controlled fire at the driver has a much higher chance of stopping the vehicle.

Obviously if vehicle is charging you then get out of the way. But if you live in a neighborhood and some guys are driving around and looting, you can disable their vehicle and end the looting. Also if you are standing outside trying to clear away debris from a storm and they see that you are armed, ONE (not the driver) out of maybe 3-4 BGs might decide to shoot at you. It would be hard to hit only the guy that is shooting without hitting the others that may not be armed. An M-14 would work well to disable the engine and if they all ARE armed and return fire then a couple 20-round bursts should quickly end the problem.
 
Could not a situation arrise in which a regular old citizen's limited use of a full auto weapon be advantageous?

Haven't seen one suggested yet.

But if you live in a neighborhood and some guys are driving around and looting, you can disable their vehicle and end the looting.

Still haven't seen one. Does anyone really think the police would do that?
 
And even though police agencies are allowed to have full-auto, most of them don't. Everything a LEA does is looked at through the liability prism. The times they use full-auto are rare if ever.

And T.J., I'll further clarify. If I'm stopping a car, I don't want to use a firearm at all. Exactly how are you going to stop a moving car with an M1A? Have you ever actually tried it?
 
How about police SWAT/tactical teams? They're issued full auto weapons such as the MP5 and M4 Carbine, are trained in their use and carry and use them for warrants, barricades, etc. quite effectively. Could not a situation arrise in which a regular old citizen's limited use of a full auto weapon be advantageous?

If some of you are making the assumption that the only valid usages for full auto weapons is for military suppresive fire applications then obviously that isn't actually true.
The main reason that so many SWAT teams for so many years have had a FA capability was because they could. The MP5 was THE gun of choice for many years mainly due to HK's good marketing. A FA MP5 is the same price as an SA only one (for agencies), and it was normally articulated to the brass that you needed to be able to put more of those pistol caliber rounds on target fast. In the MP5's defense on FA, it will put an entire magazine in a 3" circle at 7yds with a mag dump. It will do about a 2" circle in quick 2-3 round bursts. You can take an extra second or so and put 30 rounds into a 1" dot at 7yds semi-auto. Most agencies ran them on FA and trained to put the sight COM and hold the trigger tell the bad guy fell, due to the intrinsic accuracy and controlability of the weapon. Just prior to the shift in LE to the AR platform most places had gone to SA fire, with a failure drill mindset as there were several cases of offenders taking long burst and not going down due to drugs or body armor. The shift was felt to be more of a tactical decision regarding the need to address a changing level of threat then against the usage of FA.

The AR platform never has been a FA platform for a number of reasons one was control, as it is much less controlable in FA then SA fire (especially compared to the MP5). A FA AR can keep all of it's rounds at 7 yds in a 4-5" circle on a FA mag dump, going to 2-3 rd bursts don't change that much. SA however can stack them on a 1" dot in a few seconds. The next was the higher lethality of the round compared to the MP5's 9mm (I'm talking 55gr Winchester Ranger XT SP's vs Gold Dot 9mm, not M855 Green tip vs. 9m ball), kept anyone from advocating a need to put half a magazine into a target like they had with the MP5. By this point in SWAT/LE liability had become the overriding concern for most agencies and being able to engage in precision fire with each round aimed sounds much better in court.

In a civilian context, the need is for the weapon to provide the capability for fire that strikes the target in an area that will lead to rapid incapacitation to cause a cessation of the threat. The fastest way to achieve this is to have a weapon capable of utilizing aimed precision fire to deliver all rounds to these target areas. If a FA weapon is a capable of maintaining that standard of accuracy I don't see it as a detriment in terms of the gunfight. I don't see it as having any more utility then a SA either though. As civilians we don't have the need to break contact or use suppression fire to fix and flank a target.

I'd say that with a weapon with minimal recoil (MP5, P-90, etc.) FA is not a disadvantage. The ability to control the weapon and still have acceptable accuracy even with a FA mag dump, allows the shooter to avoid stray rounds and put hits on the target. However a larger caliber weapon fired SA can put more powerful rounds (possibly with a higher amount of energy, bullet weight etc in one bullet then a burst of smaller rounds) into a target as/more accurately almost as fast. The choice becomes then which provides faster incapacitation and which lets you stretch your ammo further.

I will admit for stopping a vehicle I would prefer FA, in the form of a M2 .50 or a possibly a MK19 40mm grenade launcher.

-Jenrick
 
about the only time full auto weapons are truly useful is when small fire teams working together want to control large areas of open ground. say between the trenches in WW l for instance. other than that semi auto or burst fire is going to be the way to go when dealing with 99% of any threats you would face. for that 1% situation that you might face, you can either withdraw silently or kyagb.
 
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