When does awareness become prejudice?

[GatorDude]

Relocating at risk kids to rural Georgia

Arc-Lite, there are a couple of problems with relocating at risk youth to rural Georgia:

1. Creepy Banjo People. (At least in North Georgia). Valdosta, Folkston, etc., I can handle. But, North Georgia kind of creeps me out. It's Hollywood's fault. But, you won't catch me on any canoe trips...

2. Relocating an at risk youth from Atlanta to Plains might not be far enough. They are still within car or Greyhound ride range of their bad influences. That's why they need to go far, far, away. Rural Georgia could take at risk kids from Idaho or California. Plus, if Georgians send at risk youth to the farms so they can pick cotton, people from New York would say really bad things about us. Idaho doesn't have that stigma.

 

[Matt Dillon]

It's not the color of the skin - it is the values that are accepted and promoted by various ethnic groups.

 

[ctdonath]

Just because profiling sometimes looks like prejudice doesn't mean it is.

 

[obmax1212]

I'm surprised people find tattoos and other body modifications to be similar in purpose as gang-banger style dress. Tattoos and piercings alone generally do not raise any suspicions from me. Most of the people I have ever met with them are anything but violent thugs. Maybe people are thinking gang-related tattoos? I guess I have just never had a bad experience with someone who was heavily tattooed.

 

[Jeff White]

I'm surprised people find tattoos and other body modifications to be similar in purpose as gang-banger style dress. Tattoos and piercings alone generally do not raise any suspicions from me.

Jail house tats, usually made with a #2 pencil and saliva are a good indicator. It's usually pretty easy to tell what was done that way by the subject or a cell mate and what was done professionally.

Jeff

 

[SomeKid]

Jeff,

For those of us who avoid tattoos as a rule and try to stay around clean cut people, do you know a website that can show a few examples of each side by side for comparison?

 

[ridata]

I profile people based on what I estimate they could do do me physically.
Standing at around 6' 2", I am generally not worried about any women.
I keep myself well aware of males between 17 and say 30.
I keep my distance from well built, older, shiny bald headed men, wearing sunglasses. Whether or not they are wearing business suits; in fact, that makes them look more intimidating.
The rest of the population I am slightly less alert for, I just watch how they act and generally keep a distance between myself and anyone.

 

[FerFAL]

Jeff,

For those of us who avoid tattoos as a rule and try to stay around clean cut people, do you know a website that can show a few examples of each side by side for comparison?

It’s generally made of a single color, most of the one’s I saw were blue ink.
They are generally a name (wife/girl/kids) or some poorly drawn skull, knife, spider or spider web, or some other drawing, always pretty amateur, sometimes look almost like a kid made it.
They are very basic, most of the time with a single kind of line thickness, usually rather fat lines, very rudimentary.

At least those are the ones around here, and yes, they are very different from what artists do. Not hard to tell one from another.

FerFAL

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

Okay, so I was looking through the various S&T headings and found this one, and though it is old, firgured I'd add my .02 cents.

To the OP, you aren't racist, atleast not by my definition. Racism is believing one group of people are better than another group(s) because of skin color/ancestry.

If you seriously dated black women, and have adopted a black child.... yeah, not racist.

Are you prejudiced?

You bet. But so is everybody. Everybody is prejudiced to some degree or another. It's what those prejudices lead you to that presents a problem. A 60-year old Asian woman is probably the least likely in this nation to assault you. A 19 year old black or Hispanic male is most likely to assault you.

But, you gotta have common sense. A black male wearing baggy pants, acting like a poster boy for "thug life" is different than a black man wearing khakis that fit, and going to college.

Anyone can tell the difference. You should be prejudiced. It's helpful. But, if your prejudice centers entirely on skin color, you have a problem.

And, just remember, while that Asian lady almost certainly isn't going to try to start something, you should keep your eyes open no matter what.

 

[XD9WBT]

Okay, I'm going to try this even tho' I see it heading down a bad road.

I see continued posts here about "living in yellow" being always aware of your surroundings. And yet if someone mentions being leary of someone because of how they look they are immediately branded as being closeminded at best, racists at worst.

Recently I was involved in a thread that for some reason took a turn to discuss the folks who walk around with tattoos covering every inch of their body. It was stated by many folks with tats that those of us who are a little more suspicous of a fully inked fella were just old fashioned and closed minded. I will fully admit that if I'm walking down the street and there's a 6 foot guy behind me, covered in tattoos with long hair and a goatee, I'll touch the grip on my pistol to make sure it's right where I want it. You should also know that the guy I just described could be either my brother, the nicest most harmless fella you'd ever want to meet, or my son, not quite so nice or harmless, but a nice guy who would never hit you over the head for your wallet. Maybe me, but not you.

Same with young black males who walk around with their pants to their knees. I should mention that almost half of the women I dated before I locked on the ball and chain were black and that my unofficial adopted son is too.

Young Hispanics I view the same way, and yet I'm probably one of the only posters to this board who would argue that we should allow illegals to stay if they can prove they are contributing to society.

So am I just playing the odds and being aware of my surroundings, or am I a redneck racist?

I just want my wife and I to stay alive, if that means I have to live with someone thinking I am a racist because I treat people I perceive as threats differently then so be it. I am alive and I don't care.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

One who deliberately presents themselves as different from normal society should not be offended when they are treated as different from normal society.

 

[INSULATION TIM]

I'd like to think that I'm not a "racist", as much as I am a "behaviorist".

The behavior of blacks, at least those that seems to make the newspapers is abominable. 75% of all black children are born to a single mother. Bad Behavior. The unbelievable school drop out rate, incredible violence and killing all equate to Bad Behavior. Yet, they refuse to take control of their bad behavior.

I see that the newest president of the NAACP says that there is still much work to do. He claims that black males are the most heavily incarcerated group in the country. Rather than accept the fact that it is due to Bad Behavior, he, like all liberals, insinuates it is due to racism. What a crock of hooey.

Yes, I am a "Behaviorist".

 

[expvideo]

Life experience will make you prejudice, whether you like it or not. It's a natural reaction, just like you are prejudice of the burners on the stove. You touch them and they burn you, so your mind associates them with burning and you get cautious around them. Now you should treat people like people, but you can't change the fact that your subconscious will label people as threats based on previous experiences.

I'll give you a personal example. Granted I may be admitting too much for a public forum, but for the sake of conversation I'll do it anyway. I am not a racist, or anything like that, so please don't take my comments to mean anything like that.

I was involved in a situation where a guy dressed in gang-banger attire, specifically a loose fitting white t-shirt, baggy jeans, and a blue bandanna, threatened a crowd of people with a Mac11. This was a fairly traumatizing experience for me. Ever since that event, I am cautious around people that wear that style of clothing. Is that an accurate view of those people? Probably not. But in my mind, I need to take that possibility into account, and when I see someone dressed that way, I will be a little bit on guard. It doesn't matter what race they are, it is the manner in which they act and the style of clothing they wear, which I will admit is prejudice.

Now you may have a different experience that shapes your prejudice. Perhaps you witnessed a tattooed biker beating someone senseless. Probably not an accurate description of most bikers or people with tattoos, but you might subconsciously be a little more on-guard around people that match that description.

Personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with being more cautious around a certain type of person, as long as you treat them with the same respect that you would treat anyone else. I think that it is a completely natural reaction to traumatic experiences, but I also think that it is important to be aware of what prejudices you have, so that you can remind yourself that it might just all be in your head, and that this person is not the person that traumatized you in the past.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Ya know, the amazing thing about stereotypes is how hard people work to fit into them.

They are like ancient myths ... distorted a bit, but with a basis in fact.

When is the last time you heard about a middle aged, slightly overweight balding white guy in a suit sticking up a 7-11?

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

oh heck i'm self aknowledged racist. i consider making any kinda prejudgement based on race to be racist. be it a positive or negative presumption.it a character flaw. what i try to do is be aware and make sure that my behavior towards all folks is polite and that my character defect doesn't hurt anyone else or reflect poorly on me.


the posts about the image folks chose to project applied to me. i chose to look a way that inspired fear and suspicion. for me it was because i wanted folks afraid of me so they couldn't spot my fear. i got indignant one nite in my mid 30's when a "lil old lady " at the train station acted visibly fearful of me when i went to carry her bags. she was nice as could be wanted to tip me for carrying her bags and we talked as i waited for her sil to ick her up(train station is in so so part of town no place for a lady in the dark) but i was burning up a lil inside because she was so visibly fearful at first. i went home and looked in the mirror.
hmmmm long hair in ponytail to waist, leather jacket, 4 earings 3 of which would make decent spinner baits that hang to my shoulder, scowl. in short over the years i had protected a go to heck look.
no wonder i scared her when i walked directly towards her after the commuters fled the train platform.
cut my hair next day and worked on the rest of the lingering adolescent angst.

 

[rainbowbob]

And, just remember, while that Asian lady almost certainly isn't going to try to start something, you should keep your eyes open no matter what.

That middle-aged Asian lady purposefully involved me in a traffic "accident" in which she made a left turn from the outside lane across my path in the inside lane (we were traveling in the same direction). I saw what she was doing and managed to slam on the brakes and come to a stop bumping her driver door. She was clearly at fault (but no witnesses). The only damage to her vehicle was a black smudge on her door from my rubber bumper (not even a dent).

She later claimed I totaled her car (she apparently had a co-conspirator at a body shop) and that she had serious injuries requiring months of physical therapy, etc. Turns out she had a history of insurance fraud - and her own company denied her claims and paid mine (busted turn signal).

My point: There are exceptions to every stereotype. Keep your eyes open indeed.

On the other hand...a section of my single-family neighborhood was re-zoned a number of years ago for high-density multi-units. It has since become a ghetto. I frequently have to travel throught that area and see the baggy pants, sideways hats, and "colors", etc. When LEOs and the media were asking questions regarding a recent shooting there - they were told that they shouldn't be asking questions in this neighborhood. In other words - my suspicians based on my prejudices triggered by appearances were confirmed. This is now "claimed" territory.

One who deliberately presents themselves as different from normal society should not be offended when they are treated as different from normal society.

If a person dresses like a thug, walks like a thug, loiters with other thug-like beings - I'm going to assume they ARE a thug. I'm actually glad they "advertise"...makes it easier in some ways.

 

[CoRoMo]

This thread is too old for my comments today.

 

[pbearperry]

If all of a sudden Eskimos are causing most of the crime in the country,you can bet I will keep my eye on them,Until then I will continue to be wary of the ones that are now doing the most violent crimes in this nation.Those damn Swedes.

 

[zombienerd]

What gets me are those guys who get the horns and teeth implanted, etc., etc...

Sorry, but if one of those guys surprises me in a dark parking lot with a recent viewing of The Exorcist under my belt, all bets are off.

Just imagine the courtroom...

"Your honor, here is a recent picture of the deceased."

"[ ]? Dismissed!"

Body modifications does not a criminal make.

Tattoos, Piercings, Etc, are a form of self expression for many people. I have had many friends who have done these things, one even had his teeth filed into points, and none of them were criminal in any way (besides the light MJ usage). They all held regular jobs in retail, paid taxes, and didn't go out looking for trouble.

Tatoos, and odd body modifications don't automatically raise a flag with me. It comes down to how a person is acting. Situational awareness.

I'm an average guy, one tattoo on each arm that are covered by a shortsleeved shirt, no piercings, flannel shirt and jeans, sneakers. I'm sure, that somewhere, somebody, will think that my attire means I'm up to no good, or puts me into a stereotype, I'm fine with that. Once you meet me, all worries go out the window.

The only attire that "peaks" my spidey sense, is one that is severely out of place. The guy in a suit in the "hood", a guy in droopy jeans and "bling" in an upscale hotel parking lot, etc... If I were in the "hood" and saw the guy with droopy jeans and lots of gold chains, I'd probably not even blink twice.

 

[WardenWolf]

There's a big difference in being a racist and realist. Despite what the politically correct people want us to believe, there is statistical evidence for increased violent crime rates among certain racial groups. Like it or not, it's the truth, and acknowledging that fact and rating a person as a higher threat probability based on that is NOT racism. It's realism. It's not innate dislike, it's watching your back. It would only be racism if you continued to distrust someone based on that after you've already seen them to be just a normal person.

 

[expvideo]

Body modifications does not a criminal make.

Tattoos, Piercings, Etc, are a form of self expression for many people. I have had many friends who have done these things, one even had his teeth filed into points, and none of them were criminal in any way (besides the light MJ usage). They all held regular jobs in retail, paid taxes, and didn't go out looking for trouble.

Tatoos, and odd body modifications don't automatically raise a flag with me. It comes down to how a person is acting. Situational awareness.

I'm an average guy, one tattoo on each arm that are covered by a shortsleeved shirt, no piercings, flannel shirt and jeans, sneakers. I'm sure, that somewhere, somebody, will think that my attire means I'm up to no good, or puts me into a stereotype, I'm fine with that. Once you meet me, all worries go out the window.

The only attire that "peaks" my spidey sense, is one that is severely out of place. The guy in a suit in the "hood", a guy in droopy jeans and "bling" in an upscale hotel parking lot, etc... If I were in the "hood" and saw the guy with droopy jeans and lots of gold chains, I'd probably not even blink twice.

Funny, the guy with the mac 11 happened to be in the "hood", and wearing baggy clothes. I guess I shouldn't have worried about him, the machine pistol was probably just a fashion statement.

I disagree about body modification. You are right that body modification does not make a person a criminal, by all means, but I think that it is likelier to cause a fearful response and may get some leniency from a judge. Let's say you were being followed into the parking lot by a guy at night. He's wearing a dark hoodie, and you can't really see his details. You frantically dig in your pockets to find the keys to your car, and he gets closer. Then he pulls off the hood to reveal horns, demonic features tattooed, and smiles with a mouth full of sharp filed down teeth. It's a mental image that I'm sure would cause most of us to fear that we were in some kind of danger. Now let's just say for a moment that we left our keys on the counter at the store, and he was bringing them out to you. So of course, you wouldn't be justified in shooting, and the guy didn't do anything wrong, but you can see how his appearance could cause someone to be horrified and fear for their safety, regardless of how irrational it might be. It might not be fair to that person's free expression, but it is the fact of the matter that if you try to look horrifying, someone might be horrified.

 

[rogerjames]

Funny, the guy with the mac 11 happened to be in the "hood", and wearing baggy clothes. I guess I shouldn't have worried about him, the machine pistol was probably just a fashion statement.

I disagree about body modification. You are right that body modification does not make a person a criminal, by all means, but I think that it is likelier to cause a fearful response and may get some leniency from a judge. Let's say you were being followed into the parking lot by a guy at night. He's wearing a dark hoodie, and you can't really see his details. You frantically dig in your pockets to find the keys to your car, and he gets closer. Then he pulls off the hood to reveal horns, demonic features tattooed, and smiles with a mouth full of sharp filed down teeth. It's a mental image that I'm sure would cause most of us to fear that we were in some kind of danger. Now let's just say for a moment that we left our keys on the counter at the store, and he was bringing them out to you. So of course, you wouldn't be justified in shooting, and the guy didn't do anything wrong, but you can see how his appearance could cause someone to be horrified and fear for their safety, regardless of how irrational it might be. It might not be fair to that person's free expression, but it is the fact of the matter that if you try to look horrifying, someone might be horrified.

EXP, I hate to admit it... but I actually agree with most of what you said, not in this post... but the one previous to this. But I must remind you... in response to you current post... that Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, BTK, were the worst of the worst ... and they were all white, middle age, no gold teeth, no baggy pants, no gangsta nothin

 

[Th3_M4d_1r1shm4n]

avoid tattoos as a rule and try to stay around clean cut people

Ouch. Hurt my feelings, why don't ya. Although, while rather large, my tattoos can be covered by a t-shirt. And for the record, I'm clean-cut, too.

When it comes to profiling, stereotyping, whatever you call it, experience has led me to this: I suspect everyone, equally.

People talk about clothing being an indicator; I know that most days of the week, I will start off in business/business casual attire, and finish it in worn jeans, t-shirt, hoodie, and hiking boots. And while it's not baggy pants, chains, and a doo-rag...it is still fairly easy to change my appearance. And I can think of a few examples in nature itself where the predator deliberately camouflages itself as something less harmless in order to entice prey closer. So, yes, I agree that radical "gangsta" clothing or whatnot can be a tip-off, as can race...I don't believe whatsoever that should be the gold standard of assessing threat. That broad of a labeling mechanism just doesn't work.

Now, I'm not saying I exist in a state of perpetual paranoia...only that everyone has the potential to harm me, just as they have the potential to be my friend. So the business suit sitting next to me on the bus is going to get the same scan as the dread-locked hippie in front of me at Starbucks. Nothing aggressive on my part - just assessment of threat, calmly and passively.

A couple years ago, before university took over my life entirely, I was enrolled in an excellent self-defense/combatives class. Now, most people I talk to assume that "Gee, self-defense class? Must be a bunch of.." and generally the stereotype fell into the young, athletic, male category. Here's a breakdown of some of the regulars:
- A forty-something weightlifter who looked like Mr. Clean's big brother
- A thirty-something soccer-mom
- The young, athletic college guy (me)
- The balding, pot-bellied CFO
- The balding, pot-bellied CFO's fifteen-year-old daughter (and she was a true harpy - I don't use "harpy" derisively, she was a sweetheart, but an absolute terror to spar with)
- The instructor, who ran his own successful construction company, made a six-digit salary, had a chest like a beer keg and held three different black belts.

My point: if such a sampling of the socio-economic spectrum could be found in a combatives class...isn't is somewhat rational to assume I could be potentially threatened by equally as large a sampling? Wasn't it Julius Caeser who once said something along the lines of "the greatest opponent will hide in the last place you will ever look"?

Forgive my waxing long-winded.

Keep your head down, your wits about you, and your powder dry. Go well.

 

[mbt2001]

People talk about clothing being an indicator; I know that most days of the week, I will start off in business/business casual attire, and finish it in worn jeans, t-shirt, hoodie, and hiking boots. And while it's not baggy pants, chains, and a doo-rag...it is still fairly easy to change my appearance.

You are having a failure of imagination. Wardrobe is a constructive part of an activity. For instance, would you wear the below to a dinner party?

Of course not... Without beating the horse to death, if clothing doesn't matter, WHY would a soldier wear that particular gear? Virtually all the armed forces wear this or similar clothing... Why? Because that particular clothing is functional, functional tools can help you achieve your objective.

IN that line of thought gangsters were multiple clothing layers and baggy clothes and hats, bandannas, panties hose and all kinds of other crap because it best facilitates their objectives. Many times those are the hiding of weapons, the easy ability to change out clothing, "change their appearance" in escape and evade better. Eyewitnesses tend to pick out colors of clothing, jackets, hats and the like.

Identifying these kinds of things early can sometimes be the margin...

 

[Duke of Doubt]

mbt2001: "Without beating the horse to death, if clothing doesn't matter, WHY would a soldier wear that particular gear?"

You got me.

Take a look at photographs of the guys who marched from Brittany to the Volga. Or from Normandy to Pilsen. Those guys didn't carry all that crap.