When is "black powder" not "black powder"?

[old lady new shooter]

First of all, the below statute does not have any current applicability to my personal situation (although I can imagine possibly acquiring and using a black powder revolver at some future date). Rather, as a AZ carry permit applicant I have to certify having studied chapters 4 and 31 of title 13. My question here is purely a matter of curiosity.

Here is 13-31 A.3:
“Explosive” means any dynamite, nitroglycerine, black powder, or other similar explosive material, including plastic explosives. Explosive does not include ammunition or ammunition components such as primers, percussion caps, smokeless powder, black powder and black powder substitutes used for hand loading purposes.

I would like to know what the difference is between "black powder" that I highlighted in blue, vs "black powder" that I highlighted in red.

 

[Mike OTDP]

Most likely the intended use.

 

[RickD427]

Time for da English lesson. Please parse out the content of the paragraph that you quoted above. It should go like this:

1) The first sentence globally defines "Explosives" in a way that includes all forms of Black Powder.

2) The second sentence defines exceptions to the global definition which includes Black Powder used for hand loading purposes.

Therefore, Black powder used for handloading purposes is not an explosive while all other black powder is an explosive.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Time for da English lesson. Please parse out the content of the paragraph that you quoted above. It should go like this:

1) The first sentence globally defines "Explosives" in a way that includes all forms of Black Powder.

2) The second sentence defines exceptions to the global definition which includes Black Powder used for hand loading purposes.

Therefore, Black powder used for handloading purposes is not an explosive while all other black powder is an explosive.

I thought that might be the case, if so I guess what I am interested to know is, what is the difference between black powder used for handloading purposes vs other black powder?

 

[entropy]

Most likely the intended use.

It's beginning to sound like Aboott and Costello, but that's the way it's written. A 1 lb. can of FFFG would fit the second definition, until you drilled the cap and stuck a fuse or blasting cap in it, then it would fit the first definition.

 

[JeffG]

Kinda like a knife is a knife if you are slicing onions, but if you stab your roommate, it's a weapon.
Black powder is an explosive by definition, not a propellant. It propels bullets and balls, but it's an explosive. If you pack black powder into galvanized pipe, and destroy the neighbor's mailbox with it, it's an illegal application of an explosive; blackpowder. So yes, as said here before me, your intended use is the defining factor.

 

[old lady new shooter]

OK, you guys have convinced me, thanks for the explanations.

Abbott & Costello is a good description LOL.

The sticky part would seem to be determining intention before the person uses it for anything...

 

[DocRock]

It's rather like pornography. The definition may not be clear, but you know when you see it.

Black Powder in a cask under Wiley Coyote's arm? Explosive.

Black Powder in container marked "for shooting"? Not an explosive.

 

[FlSwampRat]

I thought that might be the case, if so I guess what I am interested to know is, what is the difference between black powder used for handloading purposes vs other black powder?

See reply (post) #2

 

[Dfwkid]

Make your own black powder: equal? parts potassium nitrate, carbon and sulfur. Actually, if you get the combination right you'll have a blast.

 

[Texas10mm]

Make your own black powder: equal? parts potassium nitrate, carbon and sulfur. Actually, if you get the combination right you'll have a blast.

Equal parts is not the correct forumula.

 

[milemaker13]

OK, you guys have convinced me, thanks for the explanations.

Abbott & Costello is a good description LOL.

The sticky part would seem to be determining intention before the person uses it for anything...

Thats the sticky part of anything... determining end game b4 the game ends.

 

[whughett]

Ok so is black powder used as “blasting powder” IE a farmer blowing stumps, manufactured packaged and shipped differently than a powder manufactured packaged and shipped for firearms.

 

[Coyote3855]

Ok so is black powder used as “blasting powder” IE a farmer blowing stumps, manufactured packaged and shipped differently than a powder manufactured packaged and shipped for firearms.

Guessing here. I think black powder/blasting powder has been replaced by modern explosives for most uses. And any of it is likely to be difficult for the average farmer to obtain. Due to storage requirements, it's difficult if not impossible to find black powder for firearms available in my area.

 

[whughett]

Guessing here. I think black powder/blasting powder has been replaced by modern explosives for most uses. And any of it is likely to be difficult for the average farmer to obtain. Due to storage requirements, it's difficult if not impossible to find black powder for firearms available in my area.

According to my LGS the problem lies with Fed regulation on storage not only for bulk storage but for a ready magazine. There simply isn’t enough profit in black to justify the extra expense. I’ve never seen true black on display at any LGS that sells it over the counter.

A citizen I believe can store up to 50 pounds on ones property.

 

[Coyote3855]

According to my LGS the problem lies with Fed regulation on storage not only for bulk storage but for a ready magazine. There simply isn’t enough profit in black to justify the extra expense. I’ve never seen true black on display at any LGS that sells it over the counter.

A citizen I believe can store up to 50 pounds on ones property.

Yes, I was unclear in my post. One of my lGSs says they don't carry black because of the storage requirements for dealers.

 

[DocRock]

Ok so is black powder used as “blasting powder” IE a farmer blowing stumps, manufactured packaged and shipped differently than a powder manufactured packaged and shipped for firearms.

Black powder is used in blasting, but not frequently as the primary explosive.

If you look at cast blasting (surface mining), ANFO is the primary explosive, but black powder is used in the "det cord" (and I don't think I'm using the correct term there) to ignite the ANFO. AN ignition box lights the cord which then ignites the ANFO.

A Cast Blast:

 

[whughett]

Just recall it being used in the 50’s for stump/ rock removal on the farm. Quite a show for a 10 year old

 

[alsaqr]

Black blasting powder is used for blasting in slate, flagstone, marble and granite quarries.

For many years i had a federal explosives permit. A rock blaster stored his blasting powder in my bunker.

https://www.skylighter.com/blogs/fireworks-information/black-powder-grades-sizes-mesh

BTW: Rock of Ages attempted to use Pyrodex in their quarry. A person was killed and ROA was fined big time.

 

[patmccoy]

If you look at cast blasting (surface mining), ANFO is the primary explosive, but black powder is used in the "det cord" (and I don't think I'm using the correct term there) to ignite the ANFO. AN ignition box lights the cord which then ignites the ANFO.

Detonation cord (det cord) uses PETN as the explosive (black powder would be far too slow). One of the trade names for det cord is "Primacord", there may be others. We used det cord in RVN for several purposes, and were told the burn rate was one mile per second.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

All of this raises a question for me regarding black powder. As the OP wrote the law.

Black powder used for hand loading. Normally that means hand loading ammunition for use in a pistol or rifle.

What about cannons though? I don’t know if cannons are legal to own by Arizona law, but in Texas they are legal, and legal to fire, as long as the projectile that is being fired from the canon is NOT explosive at any point.

So would black powder then be considered an explosive since it’s NOT being used for hand loading of ammunition?

in Texas, a canon is not considered a firearm, but still falls under the firearm laws because it expels a projectile using the means of an explosive chemical reaction.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

According to my LGS the problem lies with Fed regulation on storage not only for bulk storage but for a ready magazine. There simply isn’t enough profit in black to justify the extra expense. I’ve never seen true black on display at any LGS that sells it over the counter.

A citizen I believe can store up to 50 pounds on ones property.

Here in Texas, Bass Pro and Cabellas both have it on the shelves, as well as pyrodex and other similar BP substitutes. Although they never have more then 10lbs of all of it combined in the shelves at anyone time. They will allow you to order it for pickup at the store though. I picked up 5lbs of it the other day from Bass Pro that they had shipped to the store.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

Just recall it being used in the 50’s for stump/ rock removal on the farm. Quite a show for a 10 year old

there are people licensed to use explosives for private work. If you have a hill or something that is worthy of the cost and needs excavating quickly. It’s used a lot in hill country Texas.

 

[Paperman]

I hold a couple different ATF papers, one of which is for explosives. Federal law, 18 U.S.C. § 845(a)(5), excepts the purchase and possession of black powder from the Federal explosives laws and regulations provided all ofthe following conditions are met:
(1) the black powder is commercially manufactured
(2) the quantity ofblack powder does not exceed 50 pounds
(3) the black powder is intended to be used in antique firearms or antique devices solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes

The gun lobby successfully defended the rights of gun owners to keep BP at home without any specific storage requirements. A business or any other purpose other than those specified in the exemption have to comply with 27 CFR Part 555, Subparts G and K. This includes record keeping and specific storage needs. The exact same powder that John can store under his bed at home I have to keep in an ATF compliant magazine that has to be dedicated distance from any road, rail, or inhabited structure.

In short as others have said its about intent. Same BP from the same store are different items. Likely when buying it you had to fill out an intended use waiver. Cant use your cannon BP to make a firework shell.

BTW, BP so simple yet very compacted. 75/15/10 is a the standard formula but a simple change to the species of wood the charcoal comes from make a HUGE change in effective power and burn speed.

 

[Rule3]

Time for da English lesson. Please parse out the content of the paragraph that you quoted above. It should go like this:

1) The first sentence globally defines "Explosives" in a way that includes all forms of Black Powder.

2) The second sentence defines exceptions to the global definition which includes Black Powder used for hand loading purposes.

Therefore, Black powder used for handloading purposes is not an explosive while all other black powder is an explosive.

I read the definitions as this:

Explosive” means any dynamite, nitroglycerine, black powder, or other similar explosive material, including plastic explosives. Explosive does not include ammunition or ammunition components such as primers, percussion caps, smokeless powder, black powder and black powder substitutes used for hand loading purposes.
Explosive does not include ammunition or ammunition components

Black powder is black powder but if it is used in ammunition....................... So it is the intended use and what it my be in.
If there were black powder loaded ammo, it would then not be "explosive"

Primers are indeed explosive. They require a Haz Mat form when shipped just as primers. but if the are put in an empty case (primed brass) they do not need a haz mat.

Down the global rabbit hole we go.