Flynt
Member
If you were involved in a SD shooting, even a righteous one, retrieving your weapon would not seem as critical as it does during an armchair discussion.
When police take your gun....
- Thread starter wannabeagunsmith
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davers
Member
There seem to be very few real experiences with this sort of thing short of wildmans..and that's straight from the horses mouth.. 
Mostly conjecture. I heard the same sort of thing regarding the police and my obtaining a license to purchase here in Allen Park Michigan. I heard bad things from a few different people as well as an employee of a gunshop about being hasseled, how they make it so difficult that you just want to give up etc. My actual experience was quite pleasant. I walked in, told them what I wanted, they handed me the test, took my drivers license, ran a background check I hope, chatted about the rain and how their ceiling was leaking all over the lieutenant's office and their break room, checked my test, said wow, you got 100%...that doesn't happen very often, gave me my license back along with my permit, and told me what I had to do from there. Everyone seemed pretty nice. Quite different from what I was told to expect. I was in and out in about 15 minutes.
Just sayin...don't believe everything you hear until you experience for yourself...
Dave
Mostly conjecture. I heard the same sort of thing regarding the police and my obtaining a license to purchase here in Allen Park Michigan. I heard bad things from a few different people as well as an employee of a gunshop about being hasseled, how they make it so difficult that you just want to give up etc. My actual experience was quite pleasant. I walked in, told them what I wanted, they handed me the test, took my drivers license, ran a background check I hope, chatted about the rain and how their ceiling was leaking all over the lieutenant's office and their break room, checked my test, said wow, you got 100%...that doesn't happen very often, gave me my license back along with my permit, and told me what I had to do from there. Everyone seemed pretty nice. Quite different from what I was told to expect. I was in and out in about 15 minutes.Just sayin...don't believe everything you hear until you experience for yourself...
Dave
Jim Watson
Member
I had some guns stolen. Fortunately, the thief had some of them in his stolen car when noticed, pursued, and wrecked the next night; the rest stashed at home not yet fenced.
Being a well known gun nut with a current crime report, I got my stuff back on very short notice. Called to the scene, I took a rifle home right then.
I am only out one gun and the more I thought about it, the more likely I thought it to have been taken earlier by a contractor's worker on house renovation, and not the burglar.
I have not been in a gunfight for data on evidence management hereabouts.
Being a well known gun nut with a current crime report, I got my stuff back on very short notice. Called to the scene, I took a rifle home right then.
I am only out one gun and the more I thought about it, the more likely I thought it to have been taken earlier by a contractor's worker on house renovation, and not the burglar.
I have not been in a gunfight for data on evidence management hereabouts.
I had a client charged with a misdemeanor and the police seized his pistol during the arrest. He was later found not guilty at trial. The dA refused to return his pistol after the trial. I had to file a motion for the return of pistol. At the hearing I recited the facts to the judge. When asked for his response the assistant dis attorney said that it is the policy of the office to not return any firearm. The judge said that the policy was <deleted> and catamount to theft. He ordered the pistol returned or said that he would have the DA in court facing contempt. It's hard to believe that it occurred in gun friendly Texas
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Jim Watson
Member
If a catamount stole my gun, I'd have the lion dogs out to tree him.
Texas is not as gun friendly as those of us brought up on western movies might think.
Texas is not as gun friendly as those of us brought up on western movies might think.
IMTHDUKE
Member
Never took mine at the scene but came and took it when I was indited. Kept it till the trial was over. About a year.
ErikO
Member
Or just a better safe in a different part of the house?
I miss the old days when police auctions could net you a few good guns for cheap...
Viper
Member
That doesn't surprise me at all. During the eight month ordeal of trying to get my stolen SIG back, I spoke to the female ADA who was handling the case against the guy who had my pistol when he was arrested. She actually told me that her office shouldn't give the gun back to me ever, because as long as the police had it, I wouldn't shoot anybody. This is in a highly Republican County in relatively gun friendly Georgia. I didn't tell her I had ten pistols at home, and after that remark, she was number one on my list. <G>
centurion94
Member
Hi Guys, I've been in Chicago for the last week, so if this post covers a previous reply to the thread, disregard this one. In Iowa, recovered personal property is always returned to the rightful owner (if known). In the case of a firearm, it will also be returned as long as ownership can be determined either through documentation or through circumstances AND the owner is lawfully able to possess it, as determined by a records check.
In the case of a suicide, the family generally does not want the weapon back, but this is not always the case. If they want it, it's their property and it's returned. We do NOT mark the weapon; in court I have to testify that it's in the same condition as when I recovered it. Analysis is performed at the state lab in Des Moines and we do not lose evidence. That's an excellent way of beginning the search for a new job.
In a homicide case, Wildman is dead on (actually, he's dead on all the way down the line). Whether the evidence is a human hair, a blood swab or a 6" Python, it's maintained as evidence until it is no longer needed as evidence, in case an appeal results in the case being remanded for a re-trial. When that possibility expires, so does the need for retention as evidence. They can't keep your wife's wedding ring, or your brother-in-law's Harley or anything else beyond that point UNLESS there's a compelling reason, such as a defaced or altered serial number. Then it's hasta la bye-bye.
I realize that I'm referencing a state law enforcement department, and there's a lot more one and two-man departments out there. Levels of professionalism vary. But liability for losing your wife's ring does not. We're not in the insurance racket and we don't do estimates on the value of weapons. If I screw up your Ruger Red Label, the price I pay to say I'm sorry is probably going to make you happy, absent the emotional value aspect.
I realize that there are officers out there who don't belong behind a badge, and who would like you to think that there's nobody above them but God. However, a little persistence combined with a calm spirit of reasonableness on your part will generally enable you to address a righteous grievance with an unfair officer to your satisfaction. Not always, but generally.
Oh, and by the way, when I recover a weapon bearing blood evidence, it's treated just like the underwear of a rape victim, air-dried, packaged and secured. No one gets to clean the blood off that pristine Luger, and has been pointed out, that blood is going to have a very unpleasant effect over a relatively short period of time. That the department is not liable for - only the unnecessary and unwarranted Bubba-damage.
Okay, done spouting off now!
In the case of a suicide, the family generally does not want the weapon back, but this is not always the case. If they want it, it's their property and it's returned. We do NOT mark the weapon; in court I have to testify that it's in the same condition as when I recovered it. Analysis is performed at the state lab in Des Moines and we do not lose evidence. That's an excellent way of beginning the search for a new job.
In a homicide case, Wildman is dead on (actually, he's dead on all the way down the line). Whether the evidence is a human hair, a blood swab or a 6" Python, it's maintained as evidence until it is no longer needed as evidence, in case an appeal results in the case being remanded for a re-trial. When that possibility expires, so does the need for retention as evidence. They can't keep your wife's wedding ring, or your brother-in-law's Harley or anything else beyond that point UNLESS there's a compelling reason, such as a defaced or altered serial number. Then it's hasta la bye-bye.
I realize that I'm referencing a state law enforcement department, and there's a lot more one and two-man departments out there. Levels of professionalism vary. But liability for losing your wife's ring does not. We're not in the insurance racket and we don't do estimates on the value of weapons. If I screw up your Ruger Red Label, the price I pay to say I'm sorry is probably going to make you happy, absent the emotional value aspect.
I realize that there are officers out there who don't belong behind a badge, and who would like you to think that there's nobody above them but God. However, a little persistence combined with a calm spirit of reasonableness on your part will generally enable you to address a righteous grievance with an unfair officer to your satisfaction. Not always, but generally.
Oh, and by the way, when I recover a weapon bearing blood evidence, it's treated just like the underwear of a rape victim, air-dried, packaged and secured. No one gets to clean the blood off that pristine Luger, and has been pointed out, that blood is going to have a very unpleasant effect over a relatively short period of time. That the department is not liable for - only the unnecessary and unwarranted Bubba-damage.
Okay, done spouting off now!
"Any law enforcement people here that might be able to explain WHY the need to "electro-pencil" or scratch ANTHING on to a fine gun to further "identify" it ... "
It hasn't been that long since marking firearms was TAUGHT as part of crime scene processing. I have a copy of Vernon Geberth's "Practical Homicide Investigation" 3rd edition (1996) that still says (page 517)
"All weapons recovered should be marked for identification as soon as possible in the following manner: Revolvers - mark on frame, barrel and cylinder."
I think this grew out of a perceived need to be able to "identify" a weapon without referring to case notes or an evidence receipt.
Luckily, our agency and the State lab realize what a crock that is, and we no longer mark firearms. The only exceptions is with older weapons that do not have an individual serial number - or the occasional old-timer that hasn't seized a gun since the 90's.
(Some of our Latent Print Examiners will still place their initials on a firearm they have processed, but they are now using indelible markers, and that comes off easily using a little acetone and a Q-tip.)
Of more concern is the use of Ardrox, basic yellow 40, or some of the other dye stains used to develop latent fingerprints. These may permanently discolor wood or rubber grips, and will transfer to your hands, clothes or holster if the weapon isn't thoroughly cleaned. And if your firearm has been "cyanoacrylate fumed" to develop prints, you may have a fine coating of SuperGlue ALL over your piece - including firing pin channels and other tight tolerance fittings. If you get a gun from the police - ASK what was done to process it.
It hasn't been that long since marking firearms was TAUGHT as part of crime scene processing. I have a copy of Vernon Geberth's "Practical Homicide Investigation" 3rd edition (1996) that still says (page 517)
"All weapons recovered should be marked for identification as soon as possible in the following manner: Revolvers - mark on frame, barrel and cylinder."
I think this grew out of a perceived need to be able to "identify" a weapon without referring to case notes or an evidence receipt.
Luckily, our agency and the State lab realize what a crock that is, and we no longer mark firearms. The only exceptions is with older weapons that do not have an individual serial number - or the occasional old-timer that hasn't seized a gun since the 90's.
(Some of our Latent Print Examiners will still place their initials on a firearm they have processed, but they are now using indelible markers, and that comes off easily using a little acetone and a Q-tip.)
Of more concern is the use of Ardrox, basic yellow 40, or some of the other dye stains used to develop latent fingerprints. These may permanently discolor wood or rubber grips, and will transfer to your hands, clothes or holster if the weapon isn't thoroughly cleaned. And if your firearm has been "cyanoacrylate fumed" to develop prints, you may have a fine coating of SuperGlue ALL over your piece - including firing pin channels and other tight tolerance fittings. If you get a gun from the police - ASK what was done to process it.
Mike1234567
member
RE: Blood evidence on a firearm...
I think most will agree that's very important. But, if it's so important to preserve evidence, then why aren't the guns (and evidence) better preserved in small sealed nitrogen-filled containers, perhaps even special bags? That'll help preserve both.
I think most will agree that's very important. But, if it's so important to preserve evidence, then why aren't the guns (and evidence) better preserved in small sealed nitrogen-filled containers, perhaps even special bags? That'll help preserve both.
Jenrick
Member
Dried blood is still capable of being processed for DNA without doing anything special . From a cost conscious point of view there is no reason to store it in a container that prevents oxidation. Certain things that might degrade when exposed to the atmosphere are stored in special containers if available.
-Jenrick
-Jenrick
Maple_City_Woodsman
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Buddy of mine had a very expensive 45acp pistol stolen from his home by a 'friend of a friend'. The gun was used to knock over a local 'choke and puke' (which had less than $50 in the register) and quickly recovered by the local sheriff...
It took a few YEARS to get the gun back.
Some of the 'suspects' were not found after the crime, so the sheriff would not release 'evidence' on the 'open investigation' (not that they were actually putting any effort into solving it).
Some time later, the other accomplices were rounded up in relation to another crime, and the gun was finally allowed to return home. The gun was fine - not rusted or damaged in any way. It had simply been sitting in the county evidence locker all that time.
It took a few YEARS to get the gun back.
Some of the 'suspects' were not found after the crime, so the sheriff would not release 'evidence' on the 'open investigation' (not that they were actually putting any effort into solving it).
Some time later, the other accomplices were rounded up in relation to another crime, and the gun was finally allowed to return home. The gun was fine - not rusted or damaged in any way. It had simply been sitting in the county evidence locker all that time.
SharpsDressedMan
member
Would it be appropriate to file a writ to force the police agency to compensate or buy the gun in question, should they decide to "keep" if for an unreasonable (possibly determined by a judge) length of time? After all, when it comes to the price of prosecution, $500-$1000 for the preservation and retention of a valuable piece of evidence should be worth it, right? Why deny the VICTIM the ability to protect himself in the interim? Something like that might even become a practice to be adopted universally in prolonged court cases, enacted in the interest of justice for the victim and citizen.
788Ham
Member
Sounds good to me!
SharpsDressedMan
member
Maybe the US Congress could pass it, and call it the "Victims Rights Protection Act", and it could cover all kinds of injustices. Force the return of property to the victim in a timely fashion, a victims' fund for restitution of lost wages, medical bills, etc. Maybe we could start the movement right here, but it would have to move to a different thread.
Jenrick
Member
SharpsDressedMan: Filing in court isn't a bad idea, just be prepared for the flip side. What do you do if the judge says that holding the weapon until the suspect has completed there sentence (hence past any possible chance of appeal) is reasonable? That's a perfectly legitimate response from a judge depending on the level of the case (capital cases will have ALL the evidence retained until the suspect is executed, heck DWI's have a 10 year retention period on evidence in Texas).
The issue that arises with returning a firearm or any other item of value is when it's evidence. Just because something has value (sentimental or monetary) doesn't mean it's treated any different then a $1 Harbor Freight screw driver. They're all evidence and we are bound by three things: state law regarding evidence retention periods, the DA's evidence retention requirements, and lastly and usually the shortest and easiest our own agencies retention requirements. So take it up with your legislators by and large, then your DA, and lastly with your PD.
I've personally released two long guns to the victim of a burglary on scene. He immediately identified them by description, and we handed them right over since we had the suspect dead to rights for the burglary. At that point they didn't have any evidentiary value, they were merely recovered stolen property. I've also fought tooth and nail to keep from sending a pistol back to a subject who attempted suicide with it (lost that one, and they ended up making it work the second time).
-Jenrick
The issue that arises with returning a firearm or any other item of value is when it's evidence. Just because something has value (sentimental or monetary) doesn't mean it's treated any different then a $1 Harbor Freight screw driver. They're all evidence and we are bound by three things: state law regarding evidence retention periods, the DA's evidence retention requirements, and lastly and usually the shortest and easiest our own agencies retention requirements. So take it up with your legislators by and large, then your DA, and lastly with your PD.
I've personally released two long guns to the victim of a burglary on scene. He immediately identified them by description, and we handed them right over since we had the suspect dead to rights for the burglary. At that point they didn't have any evidentiary value, they were merely recovered stolen property. I've also fought tooth and nail to keep from sending a pistol back to a subject who attempted suicide with it (lost that one, and they ended up making it work the second time).
-Jenrick
LiquidTension
Member
Of the numerous guns I've confiscated over the years, we didn't mark any of them. We wrapped the chain of custody sheet around the barrel with a rubber band and put them in the gun cabinet. Pistols were put in an evidence bag. Very few were returned to the owners because just shy of 100% of the time they were confiscated from felons who weren't allowed to have them anyway and in my county we never found one that had been reported stolen. They were eventually auctioned. A few times the felon was living in a house and another member of the residence claimed ownership of the firearms and they were returned to the owner.
One method I've seen a local agency use to put the case number on the gun is to use some kind of silver paint on the receiver and then a marker on top with the number. It won't smear but it comes right off with a shot of brake cleaner and leaves no permanent mark.
One method I've seen a local agency use to put the case number on the gun is to use some kind of silver paint on the receiver and then a marker on top with the number. It won't smear but it comes right off with a shot of brake cleaner and leaves no permanent mark.
orionengnr
Member
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If my carry gun has saved my life, and it gets engraved/rusted/beaten to death/added to some cop's collection, the important thing is that I will still be alive to bitch about it, and then replace it.
It will have done it's job, and though I will mourn it's passing, I will move on.
I replace my motorcycle helmet every few years, whether I "use" it or not, and those cost $600-800 each.
Just another form of insurance, which I also purchase in a number of forms.
It will have done it's job, and though I will mourn it's passing, I will move on.
I replace my motorcycle helmet every few years, whether I "use" it or not, and those cost $600-800 each.
Just another form of insurance, which I also purchase in a number of forms.
Mike1234567
member
As mentioned before...
Perhaps the best thing to do for SD purposes is keep the cheapest firearm you can buy that is as fully reliable/effective as any other pricer/prettier piece.
I'm now having second thoughts about keeping a M&P45 as my night stand HD gun.....
Perhaps the best thing to do for SD purposes is keep the cheapest firearm you can buy that is as fully reliable/effective as any other pricer/prettier piece.
I'm now having second thoughts about keeping a M&P45 as my night stand HD gun.....
mine was etched into the bare metal, "a nickel plated" custom walther. I sold it when I got it back, it was pure spite on the cops part. He new he made a mistake and I wan't going away. It took 18 months to get my guns returned, in NYC, they are on your license, so if they take one, they take them all, "pull your permit" until everything comes to a conclusion. The 25 baretta wasn't touched.
SharpsDressedMan
member
As someone brought up earlier, do they hold a vehicle in a capital case as evidence, or do they return it promptly? There is no reason to hold a gun longer than a car, or tie up either longer than they process a crime scene. They don't seize the HOUSE a murder was committed in, and hold it until the trial, do they?..... even though valuable evidence MIGHT STILL BE IN THE HOUSE (they may have to go back in to seach again, etc). We have let due process and powers of the state get out of hand, and the VICTIMS have been brushed to the side. It doesn't have to be that way.
Yes - as a matter of fact, we DO hold vehicles in homicide cases - often for decades.
As for why you don't get your gun, or car back right away - check out "spoliation of evidence" on WikiPedia.
Basically if law enforcement loses, destroys or negligently damages evidence, the trier of fact gets to "assume the worst" about the evidence. If the gun is gone, the trier of fact can assume that it wasn't a real gun, or wasn't functional. What ever theory that would most hurt the prosecution.
So we keep cars, and guns, knives and big bloody rocks until the trial is over, the appeal lost, and in capital cases until the needle slides home.
And in very rare and specific cases, the courts have allowed the police to seal buildings up until trial. Remember the FBI dismantling the UniBomber's cabin and moving it back to wherever and then reassembling it for trial?
This isn't spite or an anti-2A attitude. It's a realistic understanding of what is required in an adversarial criminal justice system. I's must be dotted, T's must be crossed, and sometimes guns get held for a long time. The alternatives are either give up on ever convicting a criminal, or completely changing our legal system.
As for why you don't get your gun, or car back right away - check out "spoliation of evidence" on WikiPedia.
Basically if law enforcement loses, destroys or negligently damages evidence, the trier of fact gets to "assume the worst" about the evidence. If the gun is gone, the trier of fact can assume that it wasn't a real gun, or wasn't functional. What ever theory that would most hurt the prosecution.
So we keep cars, and guns, knives and big bloody rocks until the trial is over, the appeal lost, and in capital cases until the needle slides home.
And in very rare and specific cases, the courts have allowed the police to seal buildings up until trial. Remember the FBI dismantling the UniBomber's cabin and moving it back to wherever and then reassembling it for trial?
This isn't spite or an anti-2A attitude. It's a realistic understanding of what is required in an adversarial criminal justice system. I's must be dotted, T's must be crossed, and sometimes guns get held for a long time. The alternatives are either give up on ever convicting a criminal, or completely changing our legal system.
Maple_City_Woodsman
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This is why I carry my KelTec P32 most - it is easy to carry, has never malfunctioned, and they only cost $200 new.
The S&W Model 25 'Classic', the FN FiveseveN, and the mint Beretta 8040 'D'? All safe queens / target guns.
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