When the Police Arrive....

[Carbonator]

EDIT: IGNORE THE FIRST SENTENCE IN THIS POST ("I am justifiably...")

I am justifiably holding a criminal at gunpoint and waiting for the police to arrive. As the police arrive how do I identify myself as the good guy without being shot by friendly fire? I can't drop my weapon because the bad guy is then free to panic and attack again and might take my weapon to use against me or the newly arriving officers. I also don't want the police to see me with a gun in my hand when they arrive and think that I am the bad guy.

Is there a procedure or tactic used to transition the situation from CCWing citizen to police, to prevent confusion and friendly fire? This is about in person face to face communication, not cell phone communication.

And if a cop told me to "drop the gun", is that absolutely literal or can I re-holster the gun or place it gently on the ground? I wouldn't want the bad guy to then grab my gun, nor would I want to make any movements or delays that get me shot, nor would I want to actually drop my gun and risk it going off or getting damaged.

 

[armoredman]

Reverse that - you can repair damaged guns, and you can buy a new one; you can't buy a new life if a nervous officer thinks you're trying to get the drop on him. Follow commands instantly and without argument. This is the one place when you want to do what they say, right now. Toss it if need be to get it away from you AND the BG, put safety on if neccesary to do so.
Hopefully you had a cell phone that you called PD with and identified yourself, or there are witnessess who can vouch for you. Carry that phone.

 

[zxcvbob]

If you think about it, you just made a pretty good argument for *not* holding a badguy for the police. (that's not your job) You shoot him, or you let him leave, depending on the circumstances.

 

[tkopp]

I'm not a cop. Just my uninformed opinion.

Who you are, a description of what you are wearing, and the fact that you are armed should have been communicated to the police prior to their arrival. Even so, they don't know you. You're carrying and pointing a weapon, which makes you a threat. You will still be instructed to drop the weapon once they arrive and take control of the scene.

Also, I'd take 'drop the gun' literally. When police arrive, they want to be the only ones armed until they know what's going on. You may communicate that you're putting the gun down to prevent an accidental discharge and set it down then walk away, but you must be absolutely sure of your muzzle control.

 

[JoeSlomo]

"Who you are, a description of what you are wearing, and the fact that you are armed should have been communicated to the police prior to their arrival. "


+1

A good description of yourself can go a long way in making I.D. easier for those that show up on the scene. The info will more than likely be passed on to responding units via dispatch.

 

[Carbonator]

I realize the importance of cell phone communication, which is why I wanted this thread to be about immediate in-person communication to the police and not about prior communication over the phone. My thinking is that any prior cell phone communication should not change anything regarding how to act or identify yourself when the police arrive. I wouldn't trust 100% accurate communication to be relayed to the officer anyway.

What do you say to the police? Do you yell? Do you say nothing? Do you put one hand up to signal the cop while keeping one hand on your weapon? Do you drop the weapon on sight of the officer and put your hands up? Would this make the cop think you are the bad guy? Hands up with gun in hand or holstered or dropped? Trust that the cop will keep the real bad guy from stabbing you? Do you reposition yourself to be at a certain angle or position in reference to the bad guy and the arriving cops? Face the cops or face the bad guy? Drop the gun straight down or toss it towards the cop so the bad guy doesn't see an opportunity and go for my dropped weapon - and would the cop see this as a threat, a gun being tossed instead of droppped? How do you communicate or gesture to a police officer in a dire circumstance where split seconds can get you shot?

 

[mregunz]

I would think the cop's would keep you on the line till they pulled up.So that should help them identify who you are.And I don't think facing a cop in a high stress situation like that with bad guy and gun involved,with your gun still in ur hand would be a good idea, sound's like a good way to get shot.And I'd follow there instuction's to a "T".

 

[rondog]

I think I'd try to move out of the BG's line of sight and try to reholster my gun just before the cops come screeching to a halt. AFA being on the phone and telling them what I look like, you're not going to be talking to the responding officers, you'll be talking to a 911 operator, who'll be relaying the info to a police dispatcher, who'll be relaying the info the the officers, etc. They won't know you're the good guy in the polka-dot shirt with the gun for several minutes after you speak those words. They'll see your gun and start screaming at you to drop it, if you don't get shot first. I'll prefer to not have it in my hand anymore when they pull up.

 

[sidheshooter]

One good argument for a reinforced holster opening. This is another situation where a little bit of training goes a long way; an LFI lecture class, for one example, will cover this scenario in detail.

 

[mrokern]

Guys, I don't care what anybody says about reholstering. I'm sure a few of our current LEO members will be along shortly to back this up.

When you are told to "DROP IT" by a police officer, you do exactly that. Carrying a Nighthawk that cost you a month's salary? Drop it. Carrying an antique revolver? Drop it. On the ground. Your carry gun IS drop safe, right?

Responding officers aren't going to notice your clothes, or a cell phone, or anything other than the gun in your hand. TRUST me. This is why off-duty officers fear being in this scenario so much...even a badge doesn't mean squat. They will have tunnel vision on your gun, and if you do anything they construe as dangerous, you may not live through the encounter.

Here's why I ask about the drop safe part...

You are going to be put at gunpoint. The officers don't know that you aren't the bad guy, and they are going to be on edge, with guns aimed at you, possibly fingers resting on triggers.

If you drop your carry gun, and it goes "BANG", there will be additional "BANG"s following the first one in immediate succession. You won't like the additional ones.

-Mark

 

[BullfrogKen]

Blue on blue shootings happen. Departments and Agencies have sometimes gone through great lengths to find ways to prevent it.

When the Police Arrive....

I am justifiably holding a criminal at gunpoint and waiting for the police to arrive.

I'd like to know why we'd need to be doing this. The risk this criminal, or one of his friends you might not know about, is going to do something to put me or someone I care about in danger is a very big concern.


Even if one of the officers I know personally was on his way to the call, I'd still be very reluctant to hold someone at the scene.


Re-think your premise.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

unless i'm being shot at by a criminal at that precise moment there will not be a gun in my hand when a cop gets outa his car. i'll be dropping mine while the cop car is slowing down. someone wants to try another way have at it and good luck.

 

[wishin]

I would have the BG lay on the ground face down and my weapon holstered and not visible, with my hands in the air showing that they're empty, when the LEO arrives. Tell them the perp's on the ground and that you're carrying.

 

[Carbonator]

Even if one of the officers I know personally was on his way to the call, I'd still be very reluctant to hold someone at the scene.


Re-think your premise.

Sounds like you are just as reluctant just as I would be to "hold" someone, and the scenario was not necessarily holding/detaining the person. We can all imagine a situation where we would draw our gun but not pull the trigger. Recently a poster here described a real situation where he confronted and almost shot a mentally disturbed man who had a knife in his front yard. There are many other scenarios... but this is about identifying yourself to prevent friendly fire from police.

 

[Gouranga]

I'd like to know why we'd need to be doing this. The risk this criminal, or one of his friends you might not know about, is going to do something to put me or someone I care about in danger is a very big concern.


Even if one of the officers I know personally was on his way to the call, I'd still be very reluctant to hold someone at the scene.


Re-think your premise.

Ditto. We are not cops. IMO, the job...end the threat. Do that by killing the threat or in the case you described, he is disarmed, tell him to walk away, he runs away, threat ended. Give the cops a good description.

Let's assume you did not follow that advice and are holding a suspect at gunpoint. I would assume you had him drop the weapon(s) you could see. here is what is going to go down, the officers WILL draw their weapons, and you WILL follow their instructions as if they were being given by God himself or you may be killed.

You will be handcuffed and put in the patrol car while the officers assess the scene, take statements, etc, you may even be taken to the station.

I think the important thing here is that you comply 100% with the officers instructions. Do not get all ranting and raving hollering about how you are the good guy. Their adrenaline is jumped up, they just showed up to an active crime scene with at least 1 armed individual. On top of that if you have the BG lying face down, they may think he has been shot already. You yelling, or trying to identify yourself, can make it worse. When the officers have the scene secured they will take statements and you will be able to identify yourself.

 

[Carbonator]

We are not cops. IMO, the job...end the threat. Do that by killing the threat or in the case you described, he is disarmed, tell him to walk away, he runs away, threat ended.

I'm not shooting anyone with the purpose to KILL, but I'd shoot to STOP an imminent threat. I am not going to use deadly force to detain someone, but I am also not going to use deadly force to make him flee the scene. If he runs away from me I'm not shooting unless he is an imminent threat to others.

Please keep on topic - which is why I used the word "justifiably" as the 3rd word in the original post to keep that from derailing this thread.

 

[DCR]

Do exactly what the officers say, and repeat their commands back to them while you are complying for purposes of creating a recorded record (they will be recording the contact). Something like "Yes, sir, I am dropping my weapon. Yes, sir, I am lying down on the ground." Sounds goofy, but it's just one more record of your compliance and cooperation should it ever be an issue.

 

[Shadow 7D]

There was a thread a few months ago about a homeowner who was shot by the cops holding a BG, most accounts point out that the cops didn't listen, even with his wife in the front yard yelling at them that her husband was holding the guy, and he was on the phone with the dispatcher.

this happened in Arizona, point is, I don't think I would hold someone (after all, if they run, you can't shoot them...) and most certainly not in my house.

 

[Kleanbore]

I am justifiably holding a criminal at gunpoint and waiting for the police to arrive.

Your question has to do with what to do when the police arrive. You obviously realize that there is a real risk associated with the reaction of the arriving police officers. However, that's not all.

There's also the risk of being ambushed by an accomplice or being shot by an armed citizen who misreads the situation. There's the risk that the criminal will get the upper hand and that you will become a victim. There's the risk that your gun will go off and that you will become a criminal.

Those are in addition to the enormous risk of civil liability that you assumed when you effected a citizen's arrest in that manner; that varies by jurisdiction. Incidentally, so does the threshold for making a citizen's arrest (or "detaining " a suspect, if you are in North Carolina) in the first place.

Given those very real risks, and given that you may not lawfully fire your gun at a criminal who refuses to stay, you have not made the wisest decision, in the first place.

Yes, "drop the gun" is literal and it means "right now", and you may not be quick enough. "Get on the ground" also means "right now" and you may end up with some chronic pain issues afterwards in addition to a bruised ego.

However, you should be aware of all of the other very serious risks before you decide to attempt to "justifiably hold a criminal at gunpoint."

Take a cell phone picture. Reduces your chances of being shot, sued, arrested, and possibly charged and convicted.

 

[Stirling XD]

If I didn't have the opportunity to call in a description of myself and the situation, when LEO arrived I would yell things like, "I'm the homerowner and this guy broke in." "This guy tried to rob me." "This guy theatened to kill me and pulled a knife." Basically, I would explain what he did to provoke me to draw a gun. I would also inform them that I have a concealed carry permit. Not too many bad guys have those. Then I would follow every command without delay. I may not drop the gun for fear it might go off and that would lead to bad reactions. I know that's very uncommon with most modern weapons. I might be tempted to drop the magazine and lock the slide back, but that depends on the level of intensity shown by the officers.

As for holding someone at gunpoint, I'm not that worried if this took place in my home. I would tell him to lay face-down on the floor with his hands where I could see them. If he decided to turn and run for the door without posing a threat, I would let him run. If he decides to comply with my request, that's his decision. In public, holding someone at gunpoint is more of a slippery slope. An abundance of witnesses would be nice as opposed to your word against his. But I would never shoot someone for fleeing in a safe manner. Just my $.02.

 

[Carbonator]

I have edited the original post to keep this thread on topic.

 

[mbt2001]

I can't drop my weapon because the bad guy is then free to panic and attack again and might take my weapon to use against me or the newly arriving officers. I also don't want the police to see me with a gun in my hand when they arrive and think that I am the bad guy.

When the police arrive, if you are holding someone at gun point, comply with their commands. Do not worry about dropping your weapon and having the bad guy go nutty. The police have arrived and it is now out of your hands.

Suppose that you did not drop your gun for the above concerns and while the cops are ordering you to drop the weapon and put your hands on your head, suppose that the perp attack and you shot him... The cops would shoot you to death.

comply with their commands please.

 

[GEM]

Watch someone demonstrate how you can shoot someone quite quickly as you are gently putting the gun down or reholstering. That will demonstrate why you might get shot as you futz around.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Sounds like you are just as reluctant just as I would be to "hold" someone, and the scenario was not necessarily holding/detaining the person. . . . There are many other scenarios... but this is about identifying yourself to prevent friendly fire from police.

My concerns have nothing do with how the police and I are going to sort each other out.

My concerns are with the person, and more than likely the people, that caused me to introduce my gun into the environment in the first place.


I have the impression you don't understand how chaotic these sorts of situations are.



If I can leave; I'm leaving. If I can't leave; they need to. I want as much distance between the problem as I can get.

 

[Crusader103]

....10 years as a full-time police officer in some rough neighborhoods. I am not addressing the merits of holding someone at gunpoint. This is addressing how you should interact with the police should you choose/be forced to do so.

I will echo the importance of your inital call to 911. Nonetheless, your actions upon initial contact with law enforcement should not change.

The moment you see the initial officer arriving on scene you should be backing away from the suspect while reholstering, immediately followed by putting both of your hands up, fingers spread apart and palms showing towards the officer. Keep in mind officers may be approaching in vehicle or on foot (officers often park around the corner and approach on foot).

If you can accomplish that before the officer brings the weapon up and/or start giving commands than you have already gone a long way to show compliance/innocence.

Basically, the moment they arrive on scene you are backing away from the threat and weapon goes to holster. If the perp runs away, so be it. It is no longer your concern. In fact, it is a good thing. Pretty much leads the officers to a quick conclusion about who is the bad guy.

You will receive instructions on how to proceed from there. Follow those directions closely and resist the temptation to give any input/say anything at that moment. They will care about what you have to say soon enough but not before the scene is secured. When an officer has a weapon drawn is no time to explain yourself, the circumstances, or give input.

Putting your hands up is a universal sign of compliance. While you should follow the above advice and holster your weapon during their arrival, before they bring weapons to bear or begin giving instructions, there are conceivable circumstances in which you cannot/will not reholster even during the arrival of the police..... maybe you and the perp are in a confined space and the danger of you holstering is greater than the possibility of being shot by the police. No matter, the action is still the same...

...Keep the general principle of raised hands being a universal sign of compliance in mind. If you cannot put both hands into the air put one hand in the air while maintaining suspect at gunpoint with the other. This will still go a long way to showing compliance and giving a quick picture to the officer of who the aggressor is. Nonetheless, once the commands begin, comply fully. If you are told to drop the weapon I would calmly state, "I am putting my weapon on the ground sir (or ma'am)." Move VERY slowly. I am not of the opinion that you should actually drop the weapon. Moving VERY slowly to put the firearm down shows the same compliance, serving the same purpose, and is truly what the officer wants.

In summary, make every effort to lower/reholster your weapon and back away as the police arrive. Raise both of your hands and if you can't raise both, raise one.

From the law enforcement side, let me take a bit of pressure off of you. Experience has proven that I can almost always tell the moment I arrive on scene who is the good guy and who is the bad guy. Demeanor, actions, stances, dress, age, prior contact with suspect, citizens pointing, who appears out of place, and the tell tale running away are all what experienced law enforcers call "clues."