Question on this scenario

[Deltaboy1984]

In my metro area(not very far from where I live) a armed citizen witnessed a senior citizen being attacked by a violent robber. The citizen drew his pistol, , then held the robber at gunpoint. The felon used 2 small knives to stab the victim. Sheriff's deputies got on scene & arrested the robber.
The armed citizen was shaken up but not charged or berated for his actions.
The cops on scene even told the media the gun owner was brave & aided the victim.

You can PM me & I will send specific details of this event.
It's just a good example of license holders or private citizens using good judgement & quick thinking.

My training based here on Tx Law means I would have drawn and shot the Perp. I am not getting into holding or restraining criminals.

 

[Jeff White]

When possible they request other officers but that's not always a choice.

I made plenty of solo arrests when I was working. The rural area I worked in made that normal operating procedure. That said, I can relate several instances where I walked away from an arrest and came back later when backup was available.

Once I held burglary suspects at gunpoint at my neighbors house while I waited for on duty officers to arrive.

Now that I am retired I would not consider holding anyone at gunpoint for the police. First problem to consider is what are you going to do if the "suspect" gets up and runs? Shoot him? In most places he's no longer a threat to you if he's running away.

Second problem is legality and civil liability. There are all kinds of citizens arrest laws in this country, some states don't permit it at all and some give a private citizen the same powers as a peace officer for a felony he witnesses. No state that I am aware of extends sovereign immunity to a private citizen making an arrest. I'm not aware of it ever happening but if you shot a suspect and then held him for the police you could conceivably be held liable if you didn't give him first aid, call EMS or provide other aid. The person you are holding at gunpoint is now your responsibility. You have just now taken on the task of safeguarding him from the other patrons in the store.

There is a lot that goes into taking someone into custody. Depending on your location you may be waiting anywhere from 2 to 5 minutes in an urban area to 20-30 minutes in a rural area before officers arrive to take the suspect from you.

I know that no one wants to see someone escape justice, but you need to think of the safety of everyone involved including the criminal if you do take him into custody and the civil and perhaps criminal liability you take on by doing this.

 

[Kleanbore]

Excellent points, Jeff.

 

[Jenrick]

Personal opinion, the gun comes out the holster with the intent to end the threat. If the threat ceases between the time I decide to draw, and the time the primer detonates, awesome. However as civilian, I don't see the purpose of introducing a firearm into the scene with it's only use being the pretense of deadly force. If you feel you or another party are in danger of serious bodily injury or death, then deal with it accordingly.

-Jenrick

 

[RustyShackelford]

Use of deadly force, holding off.....

I agree that guns should only be displayed in critical incidents where lethal force(deadly force) would be allowed(arson, sex crime/rape, murder, armed robbery, terrorism, etc) but sometimes events can change quickly & if you can avoid using force then so be it.
I'd hold someone at gun point or flee if the situation allowed it.
Id also be aware of "seeded" back-up or a robbery quickly turning into a hostage situation.

Like the bus stop event in my area, some CCW holders may catch a break & have other concerned citizens show up. Having the subject detained was far better than shooting him but if he remained violent or was non compliant then the armed citizen could use lethal force.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Late to the party and all the good comments have already been made.

My first thought is that the store, or restaurant, or whatever has insurance. Assuming it's your typical in, out get the money and go no shots fired robbery why would I want to risk a gun fight over their insured till?


If I am not directly involved and it looks like the robber is going to take the money and run ( which is by FAR the most statistically likely scenario) I’m going to let him.

If I had to get involved I most certainly am not going to attempt to apprehend anyone. If you choose to intervene in an armed robbery and you are injured, disabled or killed, the business you are defending is under no legal or moral obligation to compensate you, your spouse or your heirs, for your medical expenses, your lost income or lost earning potential or your funeral expenses.

I’m not willing to put my family’s financial future in jeopardy to defend 30 bucks in 7-11's cash register.

 

[Gun Master]

The "What If Game"

OK, I'll join in for awhile.

I'm not interested in defending the money. It's the people (including me) that I'm concerned about.

"What if "...........He wants to "leave no witnesses" ?

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I'm not interested in defending the money. It's the people (including me) that I'm concerned about.

I already answered that

If I had to get involved I most certainly am not going to attempt to apprehend anyone.

That's fairly clear isn't it?

 

[Gun Master]

OK, I'll join in for awhile.

I'm not interested in defending the money. It's the people (including me) that I'm concerned about.

"What if "...........He wants to "leave no witnesses" ?

The "Leave No Witnesses" part is what I'm focusing on in posting #32.

 

[Gun Master]

I already answered that



That's fairly clear isn't it?

You have "established" what ?

I was agreeing with you in a condensation.

 

[SnowBlaZeR2]

Yes, you should be prudent & use caution in critical incidents, but you shouldn't be risk adverse either.

I agree with this. Armed criminals are unpredictable and an infinite number of things can happen in any situation. Sitting back and hoping is not why I carry. I'm also not law enforcement. Good training covers things like this.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Post 31, bus stop event....

I disagree with 31.
Banks & private business owners/corp franchises may be insured but I'm not going to put faith or hope into some hyped up meth-head or 3 time felon not being violent or lashing out.
Youtube.com Break.com etc have 100s of CCTVs/security cam scenes of sales clerks/citizens/bystanders all being docile or compliant then a robber beats them cuts them or shoots them anyways.
I'm not going to play the %s in a critical incident. Nor am I going to put my safety & welfare in the hands of a crook.

As stated, you can't wave a gun around & start blasting in a hold up but if you feel you can make a difference & protect yourself or others then do it.
I'd add that in a hold up or lethal force event, I would have no issues with a armed citizen who pulled a gun out & shot at a robber or used deadly force.

The bus stop event had several witnesses & the armed citizen drew his pistol when he saw the felon with a knife. It was fairly clear. The CCW holder was not charged in the incident.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I disagree with 31

I don't care.

ETA I don't want to just sound like I'm being a prick here but I really don't care if you approve of my decision or not. You aren't going to have to live with the consequences I am and since the available data would seem to indicate that by far the most likely out come is the thief will get his money and run anything I would do is much more likely to make things worse.

So, if it's my call I'm going to remain as unobtrusive as possible, try to get behind some cover and if I have any other option available to me I very likely won't even draw my gun.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by RustyShackelford: I'm not going to play the %s in a critical incident. Nor am I going to put my safety & welfare in the hands of a crook.

.... if you feel you can make a difference & protect yourself or others then do it.
I'd add that in a hold up or lethal force event, I would have no issues with a armed citizen who pulled a gun out & shot at a robber or used deadly force.

Where to start....

One will be "playing the percentages" no matter what he does.

If one does not pull a gun, the incident may end without mayhem. The percentages say that's most likely, but one will have to judge that based on the circumstances.

If one pulls a gun, one may well precipitate a shooting incident that would not have occurred but for that action.

Successful intervention requires all of the following:

• drawing and firing undetected, without tipping off the robber or the tail gunner or both;
• shooting the perp in such a matter that the shot does not cause him to shoot;
• shooting so effectively that one prevents the robber and tail gunner from shooting;that is much easier said than done;
• not hitting any innocent people.

A "feeling that he can make a difference" is not something upon which that anyone should ever responsibly rely. The customer who produces a firearm will almost surely "make a difference". The question is what difference.

If someone were to pull a gun and shoot at a robber with unintended consequences, I and just about everyone else would have all kinds of issues with him.

The armed citizen has to consider all of the following:

• where and who is the tail gunner;
• is there reason to believe that if he does not act, the gunmen are likely to shoot people anyway; and do that likelihood and the potential consequences outweigh the likelihood and potential consequences of harm precipitated by an attempt to intervene;
• does the opportunity for safe and effective action present itself?

 

[Trunk Monkey]

There was a thread on arf.com (no, it's not the one you think it is) several years ago about one of their members who intervened in a robbery and long story short the second he showed any resistance the robber shot him.

If I remember the story correctly the victim was armed with a 1911 and the robber had some kind of 5 shot revolver. The victim fired 7 shots and hit the robber one time, the robber fired all five and hit the victim 4 times.

As I said above the most likely thing that's going to happen (According to the DoJ) is that the robber is going to get his money and leave and no one is going to get hurt. So, why would I want to introduce a variable into that equation that significantly raises the odds of someone (maybe me) getting hurt?

Granted, if I see signs that are normally precursors to the robber deciding to kill everyone in the store I'd likely react differently but if I don't see those signs I'm not getting in it especially not in a room full of other people that I have zero control over

 

[SnowBlaZeR2]

There was a thread on arf.com (no, it's not the one you think it is) several years ago about one of their members who intervened in a robbery and long story short the second he showed any resistance the robber shot him.

If I remember the story correctly the victim was armed with a 1911 and the robber had some kind of 5 shot revolver. The victim fired 7 shots and hit the robber one time, the robber fired all five and hit the victim 4 times.

As I said above the most likely thing that's going to happen (According to the DoJ) is that the robber is going to get his money and leave and no one is going to get hurt. So, why would I want to introduce a variable into that equation that significantly raises the odds of someone (maybe me) getting hurt?

Granted, if I see signs that are normally precursors to the robber deciding to kill everyone in the store I'd likely react differently but if I don't see those signs I'm not getting in it especially not in a room full of other people that I have zero control over

You're certainly entitled to do whatever you feel you should do, but we are all different. In the end, we all live with our own choices.

 

[PabloJ]

I've always wondered how to handle this. Granted, it's in my imagination and hopefully it will never happen, but it is entirely possible and I can see it happening in real life.

The scenario is I break up a robbery in a store or some other such place. I draw, tell the perp to drop his firearm, which he does. I have him step back and kick the gun away, then it have him get on his knees and place his hands behind his head.

I'm covering him with my pistol and the police are on the way. When they arrive, the first thing they see is me holding a gun on a guy prone on the floor. Knowing the mentality of the police (and I don't mean to denigrate them, but the police around here don't give a damn about protocol and would fire first without even thinking. Go ahead and flame me, but it's the truth), the first thing I could see them doing is telling me to drop my weapon. I can also see me being shot because some idiot mistakes me putting the pistol down as an aggressive move, especially if there are either dead or wounded nearby because of the perps previous actions.

So, what do you think is the proper action or actions to take in a situation such as this? If I were on a phone and talking to the dispatcher, I could be describing myself and hopefully they would brief the arriving officers, failing that, they tell me to drop the gun, the perp yells I'm trying to kill him and tells them to shoot me. How would you handle it?

Thoughts?

Keep the gun, throw him/her out asking them not to come back. That way he/she is less likely to hold grudge against you.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Trunk Monkey: Granted, if I see signs that are normally precursors to the robber deciding to kill everyone in the store I'd likely react differently but if I don't see those signs I'm not getting in it especially not in a room full of other people that I have zero control.

Two extremely ominous signs that we hear about from the experts in law enforcement are orders for everyone to get into a back room, and orders for everyone to get on the ground.

When one of those happens, one would be well advised to start looking for an opportunity to act.

Then: it depends one whether one can act safely and effectively.

At the risk of some repetition, important considerations then become those of backstop, surprise (not usually a real consideration in self defense), a clear path for one's shots, and whether one can shoot with sufficient precision.

On that last point, there will likely be a difference between what the defender will have to do in such circumstance as compare to what would likely transpire in a surprise attack at, say, 5 yards. Grip, sight picture, and trigger control will likely take on much more importance.

Not to get off on a tangent, but at that point, the defender will likely wish that he had left that little compact at home and brought his well-tuned Colt-pattern single action pistol with a short clean trigger pull, a decent sight radius, and good three-dot sights.

And let's not forget that tail gunner.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Unarmed customers; robbery incidents.....

There have been a few media stories of unarmed customers who attacked robbers or were so shocked they acted out.
Some had + results, some ended badly.
As stated, there are a few "what if" variables involved with CCWs.
The point is to stay calm, think & be fully ready to act decisively in a critical incident.
Don't take any un-necessary risks or put others in danger.
I've read a few articles in the past that suggested the same thing about many armed robberies; that if the stick up crooks force you down on the ground/floor they may plan to kill you. Also if they don't wear masks or conceal their faces then they might be violent enough to murder you & not care if you see them.

 

[TennJed]

In 2011/2012, I did security work at a low end hotel property in a urban area(hookers, gang members, thugs/fugitives, etc). I had several incidents where only one police officer showed up then made a arrest. My city's PD claims they are "under-staffed" & plan to hire several new officers.
Many sheriff's deputies, police officers & state troopers/highway patrol do arrests or detain subjects alone. When possible they request other officers but that's not always a choice.

I also don't get the "carry a concealed gun, but never draw it" mindset.
Yes, you should be prudent & use caution in critical incidents, but you shouldn't be risk adverse either.

I don't get the "I want to play police so i will carry a gun mindset.

If a civilian CCW wants to play cop, then become one. Many are too scared not physically capable so they pretend in their day dreams. Carrying a gun is for self defense. There is a big difference in what the OP described and self defense

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Two extremely ominous signs that we hear about from the experts in law enforcement are orders for everyone to get into a back room, and orders for everyone to get on the ground.

In the thread I referenced above the author stated that the robber did both of those things. According to the author's account the robber caught him and several of his friends off guard while they were having a private party at a law office. He actually walked into the group and had had his gun out before anyone realized he wasn't part of the group.

He then herded everyone into the offices and then into the conference room and had them all lay face down.

At that point the author felt that he had nothing to lose and the robber found his empty holster while searching him for valuables and ordered him to his feet. The author had a 1911 under his chest while on the floor and turned to shoot the robber as he (the author) got to his feet. As I noted earlier the second the author turned toward the robber the robber opened fire.

According to the follow up posts the robber was apprehended, stood trial and was sentenced to several years in prison and the author was permanently disabled but to what degree was unclear.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Post #45, cops & robbers......

I disagree with post #45. Carrying a firearm in public doesn't mean you want to be a pretend cop or can dispatch justice as you see fit.
You have certain standards & responsibilities as a CCW holder or armed citizen.

As for the hey, just become a cop part, that makes no sense either.
I can't speak for all parts of the USA but in my state/metro area, PDs are short or can't hire enough sworn personnel. One agency with a background of scandals & bad PR is under-strength 20 officers(size about 250). Another smaller PD can't hire new officers or even find applicants that can meet all their entry requirements.
A rural county sheriff told a group of media reporters he could hire & staff 287 new sworn deputies to be at strength. He lacks the funds, manpower & resources to get to this level.
Many people just don't walk out & start working as police officers or state troopers. It takes months or years to develop a qualified, trained sworn LE officer. Many sworn personnel leave the career field too after 4/5 years.
This is more common in US law enforcement than in other occupations.

 

[PabloJ]

In the thread I referenced above the author stated that the robber did both of those things. According to the author's account the robber caught him and several of his friends off guard while they were having a private party at a law office. He actually walked into the group and had had his gun out before anyone realized he wasn't part of the group.

He then herded everyone into the offices and then into the conference room and had them all lay face down.

At that point the author felt that he had nothing to lose and the robber found his empty holster while searching him for valuables and ordered him to his feet. The author had a 1911 under his chest while on the floor and turned to shoot the robber as he (the author) got to his feet. As I noted earlier the second the author turned toward the robber the robber opened fire.

According to the follow up posts the robber was apprehended, stood trial and was sentenced to several years in prison and the author was permanently disabled but to what degree was unclear.

The empty holster person walking away from that situation was a true miracle.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

The empty holster person walking away from that situation was a true miracle

At that point the author felt that he had nothing to lose and the robber found his empty holster while searching him for valuables and ordered him to his feet.

This statement could probably use some clarification. When the robber herded the group into the conference room and told everyone to get down the author took the opportunity to draw his firearm and hold it against his chest as he lay on the floor.

When the robber found the holster, the author claimed to have left the pistol in his car because he was going to be drinking. The author had the pistol in his hand as he climbed to his feet and stated the robber looked away as he stood so he turned to fire and (he thought) the robber heard the safety come off his 1911 and fired at him immediately as in with absolutely no hesitation.

This led the author to believe the robber intended to kill everyone anyway and was already mentally prepared to shoot.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

You have certain standards & responsibilities as a CCW holder or armed citizen.

Exactly what might these standards and responsibilities be and where are they codified?

How does my status as an armed citizen make me different from any other citizen in terms of responsibilities?