When your brass talks...be a good listener

[gspn]

Somewhere along the line in my reloading career I picked up a bad habit. I'm safety conscious, I do a ton or reading, if I'm tired or distracted I stay away from the bench, I only have one powder on the bench at a time, there's a long, long list of things I do right. However...there is also something I do wrong.

My bad habit is that I do not keep track of how many times I've reloaded a particular piece of brass. No big deal on 45 ACP...but on something like a 7 mag? After today I'm a believer.

Allow me to rewind the tape to last week. I was working up a load for an elk trip. Everything was going well. I was casually working my way from the lower powered loads, up to the higher pressure loads in groups of 3 or 4 shots at a time, letting the barrel cool in-between groups. It was a leisurely afternoon.

The first shot of my last group was a flyer to the right...and I noticed some smoke coming from my magazine well. "Hmmm...never seen that before."

I looked at the spent case and it had soot around the primer, but I could see no obvious deformity. My next three shots were about a 1-inch group on the lower right side of the target. Below are my data sheet and target for that group.

data sheet last session Friday by scarfam, on Flickr

last week flyer target by scarfam, on Flickr

I called it a day and decided to come home and do some research on smoke coming from the magazine. I thought it might have been the result of a loose primer. The primers were pretty easy to seat on that batch of brass...but some manufacturers are just easier...ultimately I chalked it up to a loose primer pocket and got rid of that brass.

Today I was back at the range with a new batch of brass...same load. Before I started shooting I came 6 clicks left, 6 clicks up. From that last target, the adjustment should have me centered.

I loaded the gun and sent one. The first shot was outside the target at 10 o'clock...not anywhere near where it should be. "hmm" I thought..."do I have a scope problem? Is my scope loose? Or is something inside busted? The scope has never given me a problem, but maybe this is the start of something."

The second shot landed 2 inches outside the bull, also at 10 o'clock. Third shot was very near the bullseye. At this point I was thinking that maybe I'm seeing a really big shift from a cold-bore shot to a warm barrel shot. This is something to consider since my shot at an elk will be a cold-bore shot. I made a note to monitor this. Fourth shot, just to see where it would land, was also close to the bull.

today first group by scarfam, on Flickr


After the initial weirdness it looked like the gun was settling down, my last two shots were centered. Now it was time to start adjusting the BOSS system and see how tight I could get these groups.

I moved to my next target, eased the trigger...boom...and the round was nowhere on my target. "WTH?" I had six targets on the board. Three on top and another row of three below...makes it easy when testing loads.

The first shot on my second target...actually hit the target to the right. What...the heck...is going on? The gun that just put the last two rounds in the center ring...threw a flyer about 8 inches low and right!!!!

The only thing I could think was that my quality control was off...maybe I didn't crimp that one just right. I looked at the case head and there was soot around the primer. "Hmmm...I'm not sure I like the look of that."

I loaded another round...boom...right in the middle. Next round...boom...it was touching the previous hole. Next round fell within 3/4 of an inch of the first two.


today flyer target by scarfam, on Flickr

My magazine was empty and while the rifle cooled down I took the brass to a place with better sunlight so I could really see what was going on.

I did NOT like what I saw. The case that generated the flyer on target two had soot around the primer and looked like the one from the prior week that put smoke in my mag well (from the batch of brass that's getting tossed in the trash).

By keeping a log book, taking pics of my targets, and inspecting my brass I was able to piece it together that the flyers were generated by the cases with sooty primers.

My eyes aren't what they used to be (getting glasses soon) so I broke out a magnifying glass when I got home and noticed that each of the suspect cases has a pinhole between the primer and case head. Gas was leaking past the primers, altering the pressure in the chamber, and impacting the accuracy of those rounds.

Furthermore the case that generated the last flyer had another warning sign for me. I check the cases prior to loading, visually and with a paper clip to inspect the inside for case head separation signs...they were all good to go. However...today...the case that had the pinhole, soot, and poor performance...had a glistening ring around the case...indicating a separation was imminent.

Below are pics of the cases, showing the pinholes and the case-head separation warning sign:


primer on flyer last Friday by scarfam, on Flickr

today flyer by scarfam, on Flickr

today flyer case head by scarfam, on Flickr


This was my first experience with this type of incident, and I thought it was interesting enough to write it up and share it here.

Now...I'm off to fix my bad habit and find a system to keep track of how many times I've reloaded each batch of brass!!!

 

[readyeddy]

What is your estimate for the number of loadings that caused the failures?

 

[gspn]

What is your estimate for the number of loadings that caused the failures?

Best guess...4-5.

 

[readyeddy]

Good to know, thanks.

 

[ljnowell]

Very good post! While I'm not really much of a rifle loader this is something important for those that do load for them.

Great pictures too, btw.

 

[flyguy958]

Odd looking primer pockets. Need to charge your cell phone.

 

[Hondo 60]

Very good post! While I'm not really much of a rifle loader this is something important for those that do load for them.

Great pictures too, btw.

+1 - although I think this is good info for handgun reloaders too.
Just my 2¢

 

[Curator]

I believe you are looking at two different problems. WLR primers have had a rash of these pin-hole failures not related to high pressure but probably poor quality control when they ratcheted up production to meet the demand a few years ago. Incipient head separations on 7mm Rem-Mag brass is not unusual if you have been full length sizing and depending on the "belt" to control headspace. If you had been neck sizing your brass and not setting the shoulder back with each resizing you would get 10 or more loadings.

 

[gspn]

WLR primers have had a rash of these pin-hole failures not related to high pressure but probably poor quality control when they ratcheted up production to meet the demand a few years ago.

thanks for the heads up...I'll do some more research on that!

...follow up...it appears that Winchester does have a reputation for having this happen. I have a message in to them to see what they can do about replacing my primers form this lot...and fixing my bolt face. As I look back over the past box or two of used brass it looks like I've had several of these primers leak, and they've been slowly cutting a gouge in my bolt face. Not cool.

 

[gspn]

Need to charge your cell phone.

I had no idea what you were talking about until about the third time I looked at the pictures. Too funny.

 

[gamestalker]

Primers letting go haven't been the norm for me and 7 mag., or any other high power cartridge for that matter.

I run my loads worked up to max, and on average 7 mag., properly resized, as in not bumping the shoulders back more than necessary to a facilitate chambering, will usually yield 10+ loadings. And when it does go south, it's always incipient case head separation that will present.

With brass that's neck sized, and only exposed to the FL die when necessary, I will get an extra 3 or 4 loadings off my belted brass.

You might try switching to CCI primers, or possibly look closer at your process, cause 4 or 5 loadings isn't very typical of a properly loaded belted bottle neck.

GS

 

[ElevenBravo]

I just tossed a batch of 50 Federal .308 Win brass into the recycling bin. Between the Mrs. shooting her .308 and me doing load development for my Ruger Scout, I think I've reloaded that brass 4-5 times, plus the initial firing (it was all originally factory ammo).

I'm a little sensitive about Federal brass as I had a mountain of Federal 300 WSM brass when I first started reloading. I found out the hard way that Federal's brass is too soft. My first batch ever of rifle reloads, and I had primers falling out of the cartridge. Sometimes in the loading block, and a few times after being chambered. It was a horrible time for me as I thought I had completely screwed up the process. I did a lot of research on the Internet and found a few people who had similar problems.

So after the last time I reloaded this batch of Federal .308, I knew I was getting towards the end of the brass' life. Since I had the primer problem with their magnum brass, I've always paid attention to how easily the primers get set into the pocket with my priming tool. There were more cases where the primers set too easily for me than I liked. After firing that set I inspected the brass again. I didn't see any bulges or cracks, but I had one or two that had a weird swirl near the case head, and the mouths on some of them were very uneven.

I attribute that to the number of times that the brass has been resized, trimmed, chamfered and deburred, the brass is likely getting a little thin and not handling the pressure well.

It's my rule of thumb that for any piece of brass that I have even the slightest doubt about, to toss it in the recycling pile. It's not worth saving the dollar or two (Nosler brass for my 300 WSM) to put my guns, or someone's health at risk.

The brass that I've seen fail outright have been the neck splitting. Every 2 or 3 loads for my 300, I get one, occasionally two pieces of Winchester brass that splits at the neck. My supply of Winchester brass is slowly dwindling as they don't seem to make it anymore, which is sort of amazing since the caliber bears their name. I've had to buy the much more expensive Nosler brass, but I've never had one of their brass fail yet.

 

[gamestalker]

ElevenBravo, I too have a problem with trusting Federal brass. I also tossed a bunch of it, all once fired.

But I suspect something has changed with Federal brass, I've loaded Federal brass for many years and never had problems. Up until my recent incident, I've run my Federal brass just as hard and for as many loadings as Winchester or Remington. But recently I had a factory loaded Federal cartridge that flat out blew a primer seal. The primer didn't pierce, but the entire seal around the pocket completely let go. As I inspected the 18 or so fired cases from that box, I found evidence that a number of them were experiencing some degree of leakage. So my trust in Federal went down the drain right then and there. I don't know if this was an isolated bad lot of brass or not, and I contacted Federal, but I never got a response. But at least Ruger fixed the damage it did to my bolt and extractor.

I tested some of those from that box by seating CCI-200's in them, and they were very noticeably loose, to the extent that it exceeded my standard of what would be too loose to use.

GS

 

[BullRunBear]

Thanks so much for posting this. I haven't had these problems but I usually neck size and do mild to medium power low pressure cast bullet loads, which might explain my lack of trouble so far. However, I'm annoyingly careful about inspecting all brass before reloading so these pictures give me something more to check for.

Jeff

 

[Gtscotty]

I had some WLR primers pinhole just like yours a couple months ago and etch my bolt face. I may have had that pack for a little while before I used it, but either way I'm pretty well done with Winchester primers, went back to CCI as I have not ever had any problems with them.

 

[Nature Boy]

I'm about to get into my 4th firing of a batch of Federal Lake City .308. Currently running it all through a SAI M1A which is notoriously hard on brass. Thanks to your post, I will be inspecting it very closely.

Regarding primers. I switched from CCI to WLR. Looks like I might be switching back. Need to also inspect for this defect as well.

Question to the OP. Do you intend to contact Winchester about this?

 

[gspn]

Question to the OP. Do you intend to contact Winchester about this?

Yes. I sent them an e-mail last night. If I don't hear back in a few days I'll call them.

I'll pull the remaining WLRM's and use another brand. I think I have some Remington magnum primers I can use in the interim.

Can't wait to hear back from them...I probably have a few thousand WLRM's I bought at the same time.

 

[spitballer]

Post easy to follow and very informative. Got me thinking about my brass: .223 sporting pressures don't approach 7mm but principles still apply. Excellent illustration of imminent brass failure thx

 

[homatok]

Somewhat of a longshot but do you clean your primer pockets before reloading?

 

[ADKWOODSMAN]

As you may never get that shot of a lifetime while hunting I always use new neck sized brass for hunting. Shoot a few to make sure it shoots where you want them to go then hunt.

Enjoyed you observations. I don't shoot belted cartridges but I have heard of the case separation problems.

 

[gspn]

Somewhat of a longshot but do you clean your primer pockets before reloading?

I do. The cases were neck sized, inside of necks cleaned with a brush, primer pockets cleaned, flash holes de-burred. and I checked for case head separation with a paper clip.

Sometimes I full length size and sometimes I neck size. I haven't settled on a method yet.

 

[Curator]

gspn:

"Belted Rimless" cartridges are known for incipient head separation because reloaders rely on the "belt" to headspace their rounds. This guarantees the stretching of brass just forward of the case head. When a factory-new round is fired, the firing pin drives the case forward in the chamber until the belt stops it. Usually this is about .006 to .008." As the pressure builds and the bullet begins its way down the bore, the case mouth and shoulder area expand to seal off powder gas, and grip the chamber walls tightly. As pressure approaches full, the rest of the cartridge case expands all around, including back tight against the breech face. The brass just forward of the case head is stretched about the same amount that the firing pin hit drove the case forward. Of course, it is thickest at this junction and can survive a bit of stretching and thinning. Each successive reloading where the shoulder is bumped back a bit can add a little more stretch until the case fails.

On my difficult to find and expensive brass like Weatherby stuff, I start with new cases and fireform the first firing with the bullets seated way out. When chambered, these bullets are jammed into the rifling leade and are final-seated by the bolt closing. When these are fired, the long-seated bullet holds the case tight against the bolt face and won't allow the firing pin to drive the case deeply into the chamber. ALL of the case expansion is then on the forward portion of the case (neck and shoulder.) These cases are only neck sized thereafter (I really like the Lee collet die for this.) I get 20 or more reloadings from my belted magnum brass using this procedure and never have head separations. I have stopped buying factory loaded ammo as a source of brass as the most significant stretching occurs on the FIRST firing.

 

[You-Two]

gspn,

I don't know who you emailed exactly, but I would recommend using this form on their website. Upload the pictures and include your lot number. I had the same problem a few years ago and they took care of me. They paid for the bad primers to UPS back to them, got a box of 5k in exchange about 2 months later ( only sent about 1200 back originally).

http://www.winchester.com/Product-Service/Pages/Contact-Us.aspx

Good luck!

 

[gspn]

gspn,

I don't know who you emailed exactly, but I would recommend using this form on their website. Upload the pictures and include your lot number. I had the same problem a few years ago and they took care of me. They paid for the bad primers to UPS back to them, got a box of 5k in exchange about 2 months later ( only sent about 1200 back originally).

http://www.winchester.com/Product-Service/Pages/Contact-Us.aspx

Good luck!

THANKS! That form is VERY helpful!!!

 

[ElevenBravo]

Yes. I sent them an e-mail last night. If I don't hear back in a few days I'll call them.

I'll pull the remaining WLRM's and use another brand. I think I have some Remington magnum primers I can use in the interim.

Can't wait to hear back from them...I probably have a few thousand WLRM's I bought at the same time.

I had a bad batch of Winchester primers back when I was having my brass problems (talk about a double whammy). Hangfires or no bang at all. I contacted Winchester through their website, they called me a day or two after, and arranged to have the primers shipped back to their lab at their expense. They also reimbursed me for the cost of the primers and even called me back a couple of weeks later to tell me what was wrong with that batch. Pretty good customer service. I'm sure they'll do right by you.