Where do I find "Mil spec" parameters?

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Strangely enough, Joe Bob's Bait, Beer, and Barrels might actually be a better AR with more "milspec" parts. The problem is that the American marketplace is where IMAGE is managed more than getting 100% milspec parts into the product.

If milspec requires every single item be tested, then that expense elevates the total cost of the rifle, and you have to pay for it. But - the reality is that it will only eliminate a small handful of parts. It's an exponential increase in cost to arrive at a very small incremental increase in quality.

Most companies don't test, hire Customer Service staff and just ship you a new part. It's cheaper. But, in the AR world, the gold standard is that not following the milspec means the gun will malfunction and you will die. A bit extreme, but apparently all those millions of guns we have used over the years in combat keep it from happening.

Think about that.

Nope, what milspec does is protect the taxpayer that they are at least getting what they pay for under the contract. That became necessary because people have been lining up to cheat the government - you - for centuries. And when they do, bad things happen, like sending spoiled meat to troops in the field, or certifying "milspec" O-rings for jet fighters that cause them to fall out of the sky when they fail.

When Colt developed the TDP, it was just an internal document listing how they did things. Consider that meant listing a button rifled chrome lined barrel, which keeps them from investing in a hammer forge and nitriding, which most of the European battle rifle makers have been doing for 30 years. Our spec is 2MOA, their results are 1MOA.

We really don't need no stinkin milspec guns. It's an arbitrary minimum government standard documented to prove it happened, so that government inspectors don't have to do it all over again with a lot shipment of 10,000 rifles. If the paperwork required to accompany the shipment looks in order, they sign off, it's accepted as milspec and placed on the government property books.

If it's not accepted, it's specified exactly what isn't milspec, and then the wrangling starts to resolve whatever interpretation will prevail. In reality, not meeting milspec could mean that the part was functionally superior, just not done the way Colt or the government locked into specification years ago as the current production method in use and agreed on at that time.

Specs change, barrel cuts come and go, anti friction treatments are added to the interior of uppers, what was milspec in 1965 has changed to what is required today. It's a slowly moving target, and when a design is approved, it takes a lot of bureaucracy to change it for the better.

While some maker, like Noveske, can just decide to buy a better part with the next shipment and continuously improve things over the course of months or even weeks. Not decades.

Be very careful about restricting yourself to the government mandated minimum standard when buying or building an AR. If you intend to do something like build the better deer rifle, you quickly resolve that maybe stepping outside the boundaries of the milspec 5.56 and moving to legally allowed alternate caliber for your state is the better choice.

That is just one example of how rigid adherence to milspec has actual legal consequences. In some states, it's against the law. You simply decide the costs aren't worth it and move on.

Since even the caliber can be thrown into question, it also goes to all the other aspects can, too. And if the rifle doesn't come with a signed package documenting that each and every part is exactly the same as issue, then, it's not milspec.

The Colt 6920 isn't - it's semi auto. Not government spec burst or full auto. Therefore, the lower and some trigger parts are missing. Not milspec. Don't know why some keep insisting it is, much less any documentation to say otherwise, which isn't provided.

It's always an interesting conversation.
 
Well, I have an Oly plinker flat top right now. It's been just fine, but I hear rumblings that they have a short life span, and will eventually develope problems. A lot of people much more experienced than I, hate Olympics.

If your gun is still shooting bullets, don't worry about what other people are saying. Shoot it until it wears out. Also every gun that is heavily shot requires maintenance to keep it in working shape.

In the end you'll be a more experienced shooter with a higher level of confidence in yourself.
 
Honestly I'd not worry about it. Buy a rifle, or parts, from reputable makers and you will be fine.
This.

An AR with 1/8 twist 18" melonite treated SS barrel, 7075 T-6 billet receiver, TiN coated BCG and Geissele match trigger (assembled properly and with high quality parts), will be far superior to any "mil-spec" AR. But it really depends on what you want, and how much you want to spend. If you just want a reliable carbine, get something with the features you want from a reputable manufacturer.
 
This.

An AR with 1/8 twist 18" melonite treated SS barrel, 7075 T-6 billet receiver, TiN coated BCG and Geissele match trigger (assembled properly and with high quality parts), will be far superior to any "mil-spec" AR. But it really depends on what you want, and how much you want to spend. If you just want a reliable carbine, get something with the features you want from a reputable manufacturer.

In what way(s) will the above rifle be "far superior" to a 'mil-spec' rifle?

Granted a Geissele trigger will have a better feel than a 'mil-spec' trigger, but then a 'mil-spec' trigger is probably better for defensive purposes than a "match trigger" (too light).

I don't know how 1/8 is better than 1/7.

I don't see how a billet receiver is any better.

An 18" barrel is just another 2" to get in the way of maneuvering, is it not?
 
I think you could demonstrate that a bolt made of materials superior to the circa-1960's Carpenter-whatever is probably an improvement (and there have been improvements in steels since then)

I personally think a lot of the 'features' touted by makers are just as pointless as those arbitrarily put down in the specs.

A billet receiver is essentially the same dang thing as a machined forging, especially considering stresses are so low a reinforced plastic could do the same job :rolleyes:

A quality melonite stainless barrel w/ match chamber is likely to be significantly more accurate than a button-rifled low-bid barrel with chrome laid into it and a sloppy chamber for reliability. Any benefit of chrome over melonite is likely unneeded on a semi-auto or even responsibly-used full select fire.

"I don't know how 1/8 is better than 1/7."
I'd love to know why 1/7 is needed for bullets stabilized sufficiently by 1/8 :confused:. I'd assume a savvy buyer would figure out which is sufficient for the loads to be shot.

A Geisele trigger may be made of superior materials less prone to wear. For sure, the design locating the sear hooks further from the hammer pivot axis will greatly reduce the pressure placed on them by the hammer spring. How greater surface contact pressure on something as delicate as a sear could possibly be a good thing is beyond me (oh yeah, it does make production of hammer/sear a lot cheaper when the machined features are simpler ;))

As far as barrel length, you're right. If your rifle needs are in line with the mil spec, it will suit you fine (that is why the specs themselves were developed after all; to ensure a particular set of needs are met). If your rifle needs are at odds with the specs, because you want a target gun, ultralight stalker, integrally suppressed SBR, or piston-driven bump firing maniac, then the specs will not get you the optimum configuration you need. It doesn't matter what the Pentagon needed (20-50 years ago :p); it matters what you need now.

That's the benefit of providing your own gun ;)

TCB
 
In what way(s) will the above rifle be "far superior" to a 'mil-spec' rifle?

Granted a Geissele trigger will have a better feel than a 'mil-spec' trigger, but then a 'mil-spec' trigger is probably better for defensive purposes than a "match trigger" (too light).

I don't know how 1/8 is better than 1/7.

I don't see how a billet receiver is any better.

An 18" barrel is just another 2" to get in the way of maneuvering, is it not?
And matched upper/lower set of billet receivers generally have tighter tolerances and fit together with less play than a forged upper/lower, but none of that was really the point. The point was none of those parts are mil-spec, but will make a fantastic AR that will be more accurate than a mil-spec rifle, and be just as reliable. It was to emphasize that "mil-spec" doesn't mean anything of real value to the commercial consumer. As for the twist rate, 99% of the time, a 1/9 will be more than sufficient for anyone's needs, it shoots everything from 50gr to 70gr. A 1/8 twist allows you to shoot up to 80gr VLD's, which is about as heavy as you can get in an AR due to how deeply you need to seat the projectiles to fit in the magazine. The only reason mil-specs demand a 1/7 twist is so that you can stabilize the long tracer rounds, so why worry about having it unless you're going to need it? There was also the point about building or buying a rifle based on what you need, not based on what's "mil-spec".
 
And matched upper/lower set of billet receivers generally have tighter tolerances and fit together with less play than a forged upper/lower, but none of that was really the point. The point was none of those parts are mil-spec, but will make a fantastic AR that will be more accurate than a mil-spec rifle, and be just as reliable. It was to emphasize that "mil-spec" doesn't mean anything of real value to the commercial consumer. As for the twist rate, 99% of the time, a 1/9 will be more than sufficient for anyone's needs, it shoots everything from 50gr to 70gr. A 1/8 twist allows you to shoot up to 80gr VLD's, which is about as heavy as you can get in an AR due to how deeply you need to seat the projectiles to fit in the magazine. The only reason mil-specs demand a 1/7 twist is so that you can stabilize the long tracer rounds, so why worry about having it unless you're going to need it? There was also the point about building or buying a rifle based on what you need, not based on what's "mil-spec".

Nobody said they were worried about having 1/7, but you made it sound like 1/8 was better.

Upper/lower fit is about as useful as color matching accessories. If you like it, that's great, but there isn't really a tangible benefit.

Of course you can have a great rifle without following the spec. I think we all know that. It's just a matter of knowing what the 'mil-spec' IS, what it does/how well it does it...and what the specs on the alternative are, and what it does/how well it does it.
 
Nobody said they were worried about having 1/7, but you made it sound like 1/8 was better.

Upper/lower fit is about as useful as color matching accessories. If you like it, that's great, but there isn't really a tangible benefit.

Of course you can have a great rifle without following the spec. I think we all know that. It's just a matter of knowing what the 'mil-spec' IS, what it does/how well it does it...and what the specs on the alternative are, and what it does/how well it does it.
I don't see how I can make my point any clearer, but I'll try. Mil-spec doesn't mean much of value to the commercial consumer. What is of value is how well the manufacturer makes parts/rifles, and what you want to do with the rifle. If "mil-spec" didn't exist, Colt would still be making great rifles, and I still wouldn't buy an Olympic Arms if I had a choice.

So to make it absolutely clear, what I'm saying is, don't get hung up on the "mil-spec" thing. It doesn't mean a whole lot of value.
 
Mil-Spec is a minimum standard. Some items are of great quality and utility, others are barely adequate. Having been in the military and clad head to toe in Uncle Sams' accoutrements, I have been impressed with the durability and serviceability of some and sadly disappointed with others.

Figure out exactly what purpose this AR will serve, balance the cost versus benefit of each part and build the best rifle your budget and needs allow.
 
I have about a thousand rounds through it. By "just fine" I mean no feed problens, no ejection problems, no ftf... and iit'll make a nice tight group at 50 yards. Sometimes the magazines don't want to latch up in the well (and I'm using Pmags). Otherwise, I have no complaints.
 
If "mil-spec" didn't exist, Colt would still be making great rifles, and I still wouldn't buy an Olympic Arms if I had a choice.

And it just so happens that if the Olympic Arms rifle met 'mil-spec', you (and most others) would be as willing to buy it as the Colt.

It just so happens that 'mil-spec' is a good rifle.
 
Exactly.

Mil-spec = ACCEPTABLE [EDIT: actually, it just means ACCEPTED)

Not "exemplary" ;)

TCB
 
Mil-spec = ACCEPTABLE [EDIT: actually, it just means ACCEPTED)

Not "exemplary"

Whether or not "mil-spec" is the best or even just acceptable is really beside the point. I'm not a "mil-spec" groupie, but the value of having a rifle conform to the TDP or whatever is that it meets some kind of known standard. In a market jammed with pretty much identical looking guns and parts, this means that, good or bad, at least you know what you are buying. Obviously there's plenty of stuff out there made to higher standards than the TDP, and the manufacturers are usually happy to tell you.
 
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:confused:

Okay.. "mil spec" is a minimum standard.
How is one supposed to gauge what is "superior" what with all the various makers and parts out there?
Somethings I get are a matter of what you want -- the 1:7 twist to the barrel rifling. 1:9 is NOT mil spec but that only means it in theory would prefer shorter 55 grain bullets over the heavier ones. Things like being parkerized under the front sight post are good but if you never tinker with the front sight it ought not matter much.
I mean things like the metal used in the barrel, the bolt, the bolt carrier....things like that.

I bought my first M4 in 2006 when the demorats took over kongress in Bush's second term. Bush said he'd sign a new AWB if it passed congress. Not knowing ANYTHING about ARs I went out and bought a Bushmaster Mforgery, because "Bushmaster" was "the name" in AR style guns .... or so I thought, not knowing anything. But the Bushmaster never gave me any trouble despite it's supposed low rating by AR experts. Since then I've bought a Sig 556, a Sig 556R, a WASR-10, and a Colt M4 (YAY! MIL SPEC!! with mpi and shotpeened bolt even!!!!!) so I suppose I can't say I am exactly hurting in any way. The Colt has picatinny quadrails on the forend and I've put a Magtech VFG on it while the older Bushie has had it's standard AR cylindrical foreend replaced with the Magtech MOE version, which I like better than the cylinfrical unit.
But what is the TRUE high end of the AR world if Mil spec represents only some base standard? Daniel Defense? Noveske? BCM?:uhoh::confused:


So maybe those who ignore the MILSPEC chart and just get what suits their needs are right after all.....:confused:
 
but what is the true high end of the ar world if mil spec represents only some base standard? Daniel defense? Noveske? Bcm?:uhoh::confused:

KAC SR15

But nobody will complain about

KAC
DD
Noveske
LMT
LaRue
BCM
Colt

Or even Spikes.
 
Barrett REC7?

Never seen one, never knew anybody who had one, never even internet-talked to somebody who had one; I usually limit time/effort/discussion to manufacturers/models that are out in the market in some kind of reasonable quantity.

Also I've heard less than great things about Barrett as a company.
 
Fair enough. I've fondled but not shot one, seemed well put together. Obviously know nothing of Barrett's CS, but i like that they made the symbolic gesture of stopping sales to CA PDs after the .50 ban there
 
Fair enough. I've fondled but not shot one, seemed well put together. Obviously know nothing of Barrett's CS, but i like that they made the symbolic gesture of stopping sales to CA PDs after the .50 ban there

That was the only thing I knew for awhile, but I've talked to a couple of .mil guys and my personal second-hand opinion of them (as a company and as a product) had changed as a result. (referring to semi auto .50 specifically)
 
Whether or not "mil-spec" is the best or even just acceptable is really beside the point. I'm not a "mil-spec" groupie, but the value of having a rifle conform to the TDP or whatever is that it meets some kind of known standard. In a market jammed with pretty much identical looking guns and parts, this means that, good or bad, at least you know what you are buying. Obviously there's plenty of stuff out there made to higher standards than the TDP, and the manufacturers are usually happy to tell you.
I would whole-heartedly agree it's a good standard for someone not interested in technical details or understanding of the platform, who just wants a reasonably good quality platform without surprises --that's why the standard was drafted, after all ;)

Mil-spec reputation far exceeds "good enough for John Q. Citizen/Soldier" for way too many folks, though :D

TCB
 
I have about a thousand rounds through it. By "just fine" I mean no feed problens, no ejection problems, no ftf... and iit'll make a nice tight group at 50 yards. Sometimes the magazines don't want to latch up in the well (and I'm using Pmags). Otherwise, I have no complaints.

I'd say 1000 rounds without problems is a good start. Mags not locking on a closed bolt is a fairly common problem but it is almost always user error and not a mechanical problem.
 
Well, thanks everyone. I'm (somewhat) enlightened. I was hoping for some input from Oly users, but this DID shed some light on the "mil spec" question. Thanks!
 
I Mags not locking on a closed bolt is a fairly common problem but it is almost always user error and not a mechanical problem.

Pretty much.

Potential solutions to that:

*Download mags by 2 rounds.
*Make sure you push/pull mags every time you load/reload. No just setting it in there and none of the slapping of the bottom of the mag. Push/pull.
*Use PMAGs or any other mag that has some slack in the spring/follower travel when fully loaded (but make sure you don't overload your PMAG to 31 rounds, or it may actually be physically impossible to seat it on a closed bolt...tip...the top round should be on the right side of the back, when looking from the primer, as that indicates an even number of rounds are in the mag)

*Or just make sure, after you fill a mag with rounds, that you can press your fingers down on the rounds and have room to depress them a noticeable amount. If you don't, inserting on a closed bolt may be a royal PITA
 
'mil-spec' probably helps with marketing, esp. among more impressionable shooters (i.e. youth) or some people who have not had an eye-opener by serving in the military.
 
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