Mil spec

How do you feel about Mil spec on AR15s?

  • I consider it the bare minimum and prefer better

    Votes: 56 34.4%
  • I only buy mil spec

    Votes: 24 14.7%
  • I like it, but I go away from it for cost and functionality

    Votes: 19 11.7%
  • I only buy non mil spec guns

    Votes: 2 1.2%
  • It doesn't matter to me

    Votes: 62 38.0%

  • Total voters
    163
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.
Wow, look at you guys go, this has turned out to be a good topic.

Any way I thought I'd add my 2 cents again, mil spec doesn't mean minimum spec and I did not intend option #1 to sound like it was, but I think you have to agree that mil spec M4s aren't JP enterprises rifles either. Milspec is what the military decided that they wanted probably after a big cost v benefits study. Option #1 is stated the way it is because I would not go to a gun fight with a gun of lesser quality then mil spec not because it is the minimum acceptable, just if I'm getting shot at I want a rifle of known quality. Personally I voted for option #3 because even on that hypothetical rifle I'd be running magpul stuff which is not mil spec and an aimpoint pro because I know it works and its half the price of a compm4 aimpoint.
 
In no thread I have ever seen on any forum where people ask about rifles, and discuss mil spec, has anybody ever cared about the handguard or stock meeting a spec.

I have seen discussion about handguards having only a single heat shield instead of double heat shields. That would be deviating from Mil Spec in a meaningful way.
 
I would not go to a gun fight with a gun of lesser quality then mil spec not because it is the minimum acceptable, just if I'm getting shot at I want a rifle of known quality.

Do you use full-auto (or burst) trigger group parts in your AR-15? If not, where can I find the mil-spec on a semi-auto trigger group for an M-16?
 
Military spec is basically an advertizing term. It used to have meaning, there was a time when the Government designed and built equipment inhouse. That is no longer true, the Government does not design or build hardware with Government employees. These functions are contracted out. Contractors are paid to design and build the hardware. There are minimum requirements that hardware has to meet, but that depends on what the Major Command (MACOM) thinks is important. Tactical equipment, in theory, is tested in severe environments, such as sand, dust, hot, wet, shock and vibration. That is all good, but what you also find, if the equipment fails a test, the MACOM will “waiver” the hardware.

The Government used to own designs, the documentation was and is called a technical data package (TDP). On commercial off the shelf, such as the SAWS, the Government basically buys a built weapon, like you buy a car. The Government did not design the thing and does not control anything to do with part dimensions or materials. What the Government will specify is “performance criteria” : it has to fire our ammunition, maybe the sling swivels have to fit our slings, can’t rust in the rain, but that is about it. Performance specs for armor plate would be things like has to stop a 50 cal round and bolt up to a vehicle. If armor plate is not too heavy, stops the bullet, and is painted the proper shade of Army Green, and the manufacturer is the low Native American bidder , the Government will buy. Performance does not mean what steel, how it is heat treated, materials used, etc. The Government has no idea of what goes into armor plating and what it is made of. Armor plate cannot be hazardous if eaten, has to be made in an environmentally responsible fashion, preferences are given to minority and handicapped contractors, and it has to fit its vehicles. If the armor plate does not bolt up, then there will be a hissy fit, and the Government always ends up paying more for less.

Even if the Government owns the design, characteristics that don’t effect (for example) ammunition, magazines, or slings, are not controlled by the Government. The Government got out of TDP approval decades ago, and got out of manufacturing data package approval before that. Today, the Government is only interested in getting involved if the product does not meet the performance spec that the equipment was purchased under. The Government is sort of like a food critic, can’t cook but can eat. So, whatever cake is placed in front of the Government, what is in that cake is based on what the contractor decides needs to be in cake. The contractor is free to change the recipe up to the point the Government barfs.

Basically the Government has gotten stupider over time, it lets contractors decide what it needs, wants, and they build it for the Government.

However, designs that have been thoroughly tested and used in military environments for decades are more likely to function than designs that are new. Hopefully everyone understands that being the beta tester means you are going to have a lot of system crashes. It is better to let the Government be the beta tester on firearms and spend the money to fix the things that break.

But that does not mean someone can't copy a M1911, AR15 use different materials, and not have a pretty reliable mechanism. What you can be assured is that the further these copies get from a mature TDP the riskier it becomes for you whether the thing will work. What you find is that many commercial manufacturer’s still follow General Motor’s philosophy of “Marketing sells it, manufacturing makes it, and Customer Service makes it work”. (And anyone from the 70's remembers that GM almost went bankrupt when consumers switched to cheap, reliable Japanese cars) Basically they do very little testing and the thing breaks in use.

My Bud bought this carbon-carbon fiber lower. I commented at the time about the risk of changing material technologies (aluminum to carbon resin) and not seeing changes in external part dimensions. This receiver was not properly designed as there was no reinforcement made into the polymer cast receiver and it cracked under the weight of the buttstock.

In a very real sense, my Bud was the beta tester.

I covered up the name because the manufacturer replaced the lower and my Bud does not want to get yelled at.

DSCN2200crackedlowerreceiver_zpsc1217cb2.jpg

DSCN2191leftsidecrackedlower_zps4edaa923.jpg

DSCN2198crackedbackendoflower_zps04e8b568.jpg

DSCN2199crackedend_zps4cfa2f71.jpg
 
Do you use full-auto (or burst) trigger group parts in your AR-15? If not, where can I find the mil-spec on a semi-auto trigger group for an M-16?
There are mil pec semi auto triggers, what do you think the navy puts in SPRs. Now as far as full auto goes I've used them and I'd rather have semi auto, and bringing up parts of the spec that cannot be legally built on new rifles is not in the spirit of this discussion.
 
Military spec is basically an advertizing term. It used to have meaning, there was a time when the Government designed and built equipment inhouse. That is no longer true, the Government does not design or build hardware with Government employees. These functions are contracted out. Contractors are paid to design and build the hardware. There are minimum requirements that hardware has to meet, but that depends on what the Major Command (MACOM) thinks is important. Tactical equipment, in theory, is tested in severe environments, such as sand, dust, hot, wet, shock and vibration. That is all good, but what you also find, if the equipment fails a test, the MACOM will “waiver” the hardware.

The Government used to own designs, the documentation was and is called a technical data package (TDP). On commercial off the shelf, such as the SAWS, the Government basically buys a built weapon, like you buy a car. The Government did not design the thing and does not control anything to do with part dimensions or materials. What the Government will specify is “performance criteria” : it has to fire our ammunition, maybe the sling swivels have to fit our slings, can’t rust in the rain, but that is about it. Performance specs for armor plate would be things like has to stop a 50 cal round and bolt up to a vehicle. If armor plate is not too heavy, stops the bullet, and is painted the proper shade of Army Green, and the manufacturer is the low Native American bidder , the Government will buy. Performance does not mean what steel, how it is heat treated, materials used, etc. The Government has no idea of what goes into armor plating and what it is made of. Armor plate cannot be hazardous if eaten, has to be made in an environmentally responsible fashion, preferences are given to minority and handicapped contractors, and it has to fit its vehicles. If the armor plate does not bolt up, then there will be a hissy fit, and the Government always ends up paying more for less.

Basically the Government has gotten stupider over time, it lets contractors decide what it needs, wants, and they build it for the Government.

OK, I cut a lot of stuff out for space considerations, but I'll attempt to address the majority of issues you brought up. If I miss someting out of all that, sorry.

First of all, on a positive note, there is quite a bit of truth to your comment about "thoroughly tested and used in military environments" with respect to documented reliability over time. This is not to say that there is no room for improvement or for something else that's better...only that a given design has passed the test of time.

And yes, I agree that "milspec" is, indeed, used as a marketing term quite a bit, with the implication that, somehow, "milspec" implies "the best" or "high quality". This may or may not be true for a given application, but that's the marketing strategy.

However, with respect to the government designing and building stuff "inhouse", this isn't as true as you make it out to be. Uncle Sam has ALWAYS had a history of contracting out design and construction work on a great many things. Some things may have been designed and built inhouse, yes...but that has never been the sole source of military innovation and construction.

There are a great many examples of this throughout history. Joshua Humphries, for example, was a civilian shipbuilder who was contracted by Congress to retrofit merchant ships into the first six frigates of the U.S. Navy, the most famous of which is the USS Constitution. The Colt 1911 we're all so familiar with was not designed and built by the miltary, either. Submarines, from the first to the last, were not designed and built by the military, either. And the same can be said for nearly everything on any Naval vessel.

Uncle Sam essentially says "This is what we want:..." To the list of what Uncle Sam wants is a list of criteria that the end result must be capable of. And in many cases, there is a lot of reasearch and development that went into figuring out what it takes to get what Uncle Sam wants, the majority of which (not all, by any means) contracted outside of the military.

But in very few cases are civilian contractors just given a completely free hand in designing/constructing something the military wants. It HAS to meet the criteria the military establishes.

You said "The Government did not design the thing and does not control anything to do with part dimensions or materials. What the Government will specify is “performance criteria”". This is overly simplistic to the point of being false. Whether the actual material specifications arose from contracted civilian R&D or a direct military R&D program does not matter...it's STILL "milspec". The R&D programs are part of the process of determining what those milspecs actually are. And, when all the R&D is actually done and the weapons system (or whatever) is produced...when the military orders it, they order the weapons systems to be built to the milspecs that were determined during the R&D phase. This includes maintenance and repair components, tooling, and equipment as well.

If I want a "ruggedized multimeter", there is a milspec that covers what constitutes such a device. (It's A-A-50734B, by the way.) There are many commercially designed and built multimeters out there...but for it to be classified as a "ruggedized multimeter", it HAS to meet that milspec.


I guess what I'm trying to say with all these words (that people have probably glazed eyes over by now) is that milspec ALWAYS goes back to the military, regardless of whom it is that does the actual R&D. If civilians do the R&D for the military, then the specifications that arise out of that R&D IS milspec. The civilians do not decide what the military needs or wants...it's the other way around. The civilians work to engineer the solutions that give the military wat it wants or needs.
 
It has not been my experience that the government does not know what's in the TDP. While the government may not have developed it, they know what's in it because if the contractor does not deliver what was promised, that's one of the things the government will be scrutinizing to see if the TDP (among other documents) was followed. On the contracts I worked on, there were government inspectors onsite to ensure the government was getting what they were paying for. You may be selling them $600 toilet seats, but if it doesn't meet the specs or if proper procedures are not followed or the promised number are not delivered on time, they will fine you and yank the contract and give it to somebody else
 
You said "The Government did not design the thing and does not control anything to do with part dimensions or materials. What the Government will specify is “performance criteria”". This is overly simplistic to the point of being false. Whether the actual material specifications arose from contracted civilian R&D or a direct military R&D program does not matter...it's STILL "milspec". The R&D programs are part of the process of determining what those milspecs actually are. And, when all the R&D is actually done and the weapons system (or whatever) is produced...when the military orders it, they order the weapons systems to be built to the milspecs that were determined during the R&D phase. This includes maintenance and repair components, tooling, and equipment as well
Very interesting reply Chief. I don’t know if you went through the mid nineties era of Gansler and acquisition streamlining or were unaware of the significance of what was changed.

The entire database of Mil Specs were obsoleted (except for Navy nukes!). Only commercial specs were allowed and for developed equipment only performance specifications were allowed. This turned out to be very expensive, as the Government bought items without technical data packages. The example I was told, as the bad example, was a Navy example. The Navy bought a ship under a performance specification and needed replacement pumps. These were huge pumps, truck or van sized. The pumps were bought under a performance spec and the supplier was not interested (or out of business) to build more. So the ship had to be parked as the pump was removed, given to another vendor, reverse engineered, and a new one built.

There has been tweaking since then, there are a few mil specs that were brought back, but the example you used, the multimeter, is a performance specification.

I have the feeling you don’t know the difference between a product specification and a performance specification, so you don’t understand what my objections are, and to the way the term mil spec is abused.

There are a great many examples of this throughout history. Joshua Humphries, for example, was a civilian shipbuilder who was contracted by Congress to retrofit merchant ships into the first six frigates of the U.S. Navy, the most famous of which is the USS Constitution. The Colt 1911 we're all so familiar with was not designed and built by the miltary, either. Submarines, from the first to the last, were not designed and built by the military, either. And the same can be said for nearly everything on any Naval vessel.

The technical core competency of the Government is something that ended after the Robert McNamara era. There was a time when the Government ran, designed and built the largest artillery ever built, designed and built ships, trained Soldiers and Sailors to fix that stuff. Now all that activity has been outsourced, if the thing in the field requires more than a screw driver to replace, then expensive Contractor Logistical Support has to do it.

Since October we have seen perhaps the greatest public example of the lack of core competency in the Government: the Obama Care website. After $600 million dollars it has been shown that not only does the Government lack people who can write code, but that it lacks the people who can manage a software development program. In my lifetime I have never heard the President get on the television and apologize for a messed up procurement. This example is repeated time after time on equally costly, but far less visible, major defense procurements.
 
Last edited:
^^^^

I was active duty from 1985 to 2005, and yes I was a Nuke. So I'm a little familiar with the process, though one of my collateral duties was NOT as repair parts petty officer for my division.

I agree that "milspec" is an abused term. Typically rendered as "mil-(letter designation)-XXXXX", or the newer "MSXXXXX" format. Like "MS51958" is the milspec for "screw, machine pan-head, cross-recessed, corrosion-resisting steel, UNF-2A".

You were correct that I confused a performance specification in the previous posting. However, performance specifications and product specifications set forth by the military are still specifications established by and for the military. The agency which does the R&D which the military has made their decision on makes no difference.

;)
 
Milspec is about standardization. If you get a milspec part you know it will fit and cohabitate nicely with other milspec parts. Can you improve on milspec, of course, but then you run a chance of it not being matched or balanced properly with other parts. The evil word is proprietary parts. But sometimes a proprietary part, such as an improved release lever on a charging handle, makes it work that much better.
 
I vote that it doesn't matter. The term has become a buzzword, overused and misunderstood.

Mil spec triggers suck.
4140 is used in SAW barrels, so I'm not sad over the lack of vanadium.
1/8 twist is a good compromise for eclipsing many bullet weights and OAL.
Carpenter 158 isn't as strong as 9310.
Chrome lining degrades accuracy as a coating in a barrel, melonite changes nothing.
I prefer, overall, the Wylde chamber.

You can go away from mil spec or beyond it. Either way, if it goes bang every time, then it was a good buy.
 
I vote that it doesn't matter. The term has become a buzzword, overused and misunderstood.

Mil spec triggers suck.
4140 is used in SAW barrels, so I'm not sad over the lack of vanadium.
1/8 twist is a good compromise for eclipsing many bullet weights and OAL.
Carpenter 158 isn't as strong as 9310.
Chrome lining degrades accuracy as a coating in a barrel, melonite changes nothing.
I prefer, overall, the Wylde chamber.

You can go away from mil spec or beyond it. Either way, if it goes bang every time, then it was a good buy.

So are you voting based on what mil spec IS, or on what marketing departments + ignorant consumers THINK it is?
 
Carpenter 158 isn't as strong as 9310.
There's a very good reason the AR-15 / M16 bolt is made from Carpenter 158 and not a stronger steel. None of you have picked up on it.
 
That doesn't even make sense.

Can you specify your unclear pronoun (it) and explain?
Carpenter 158 is a P6 alloy made by Carpenter, the "it" in my statement.

Point being, military says to use a steel that only one company makes. Thats business.

9310 has better wear resistance, but is costlier .
Harder, yes.
 
Last edited:
Only one place makes it, so I figure its probably a Monopoly thing.
You're over thinking it. Between the bolt and the barrel extension (the two parts that lock together to contain the cartridge as it's fired) the bolt is by far the easier and faster part to replace. If the bolt was stronger the bbl extension would wear out first. You always want the easiest and least expensive part to replace to be the weakest link. When you factor in man hours and tools to replace a bbl extension it's a very expensive part to replace. Because the bbl extension also maintains head space on an M16 / AR-15 rifle a replacement bolt can literally be dropped in if necessary in field conditions.

It's much like fishing. You should never use a line with a higher weight rating than your rod and reel. If you run line that has a higher weight rating, you risk breaking the rod or the reel since they'll give out before the line will. Extra line is easily carried, easily replaced, and far less expensive than rods and reels.
 
You're over thinking it. Between the bolt and the barrel extension (the two parts that lock together to contain the cartridge as it's fired) the bolt is by far the easier and faster part to replace. If the bolt was stronger the bbl extension would wear out first. You always want the easiest and least expensive part to replace to be the weakest link. When you factor in man hours and tools to replace a bbl extension it's a very expensive part to replace. Because the bbl extension also maintains head space on an M16 / AR-15 rifle a replacement bolt can literally be dropped in if necessary in field conditions.

It's much like fishing. You should never use a line with a higher weight rating than your rod and reel. If you run line that has a higher weight rating, you risk breaking the rod or the reel since they'll give out before the line will. Extra line is easily carried, easily replaced, and far less expensive than rods and reels.
I see your analogy.

However, by that line of thinking, couldn't one up the ante with stronger barrel extension, or lessen the hardness of either bolt or extension?

I see your point, though.
 
Last edited:
That I knew. Thats actually been the case for almost all weapons. The Bolt in a lot of firearms contains the weaker metal and in same cases some have a plastic part too. I know a lot of Semi Auto shotguns have plastics in the bolt assembly for that reason.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top