Where do kids learn gun violence from?

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Violence is a natural response to violence. The key thing is to teach kids not to initiate violence, and make it clear what constitutes an appropriate level of retaliation, with an explanation tailored to the kid's age and understanding. With me, it was Dad saying "Never throw the first punch in a fight, but be sure you throw the last one."

In the schools, things have changed. IIRC I was in 3rd grade when another kid started poking me in class . . . I put up with it for a while, but finally I belted him. The teacher (a nun! :eek: ) saw this, and told me "Good for you, HankB! I was watching him poke you, and it's about time you hit him back!"

Today, they'd heap abuse on the kid who fought back, not the instigator. :(

Old story with some (?) humor: Little boy goes crying to Mom: "My little sister pulled my hair." Mom brushes it off with a comment to the effect of "Oh, hush, she doesn't know it hurts to pull hair."

Little boy leaves room. Moments later little sister screams, starts to cry, and Mom runs over to see what's up.

Little boy says "She knows now." :rolleyes:
 
hillbilly said:
Humans don't have to learn violence from anywhere.

+1

Violence/evil is innate. It's human nature. Children learn (or, in some cases, don't learn) to restrain and discipline themselves and to control themselves.
 
"I was in 3rd grade when another kid started poking me in class . . . I put up with it for a while, but finally I belted him. The teacher (a nun! ) saw this, and told me "Good for you, HankB! I was watching him poke you, and it's about time you hit him back!" Today, they'd heap abuse on the kid who fought back, not the instigator. "


You are too right. I once got in a fight at school. In public school they make you line up to go anywhere. Well one day I was first in line for recess. That didn't mean anything. Just being first in line didn't mean I got special toys or got candy or anything. Well one kid named Jeremy Mason was a real jerk. He started poking me in the back. I warned him to stop but he didn't listen. So I finally spun around & gave him a right hook. He punched me in the gut. In the ensuing fight, he knocked me down then turned around:evil: . Bad mistake. I got him in a headlock then kicked the back of his knees so he fell to the ground. That fight was one of my greatest acomplishments. You see I was a 4th grader. Jeremy was held back several times so I beat a 6th grader! I'm no big guy but I have a "Never give up" endurance.

Well the teacher got us both in trouble even though other kids testified for me. I told her in front of the class that I wouldn't be punished for self defense. I told her that if she* felt tough enough to take me on, I was ready. Well she backed down from the fight and sent me to the principals office alone. Well since I was alone, I just walked the hallways at my leisure.

I encourage all of you to give your kids a V4Vendetta attitude. If someone attacks them, fight back!!!

*Yes, I'd have hitten that sorry excuse for a female & smiled doing it.:fire:
 
I hear you. I got expelled for getting jumped. From that day I meet force with force. I don't care how old you are, you can be 12 years old to 120 years old any younger and I go after the parent. I don't care what you do for a living. I don't care whether you're poor or rich. I don't care what color you are. I don't care whether you're male or female. If you don't want me to lay a hand on you then don't lay a hand on me, period.

Everyone is equal in my eyes;)
 
There have been some excellent posts here about the topic, so it pains me that I can't add one of quality myself.

Instead:

Kids learn gun violence from the Gun Violence Fairy, who comes in the night when children leave ammunition under their pillows... :rolleyes:


.
 
CORDITE said:
This kid couldnt have been more than 5-6 years old,yet he knows that a gun is a means of "defending" himself. I was saddened by hearing this, thinking that he might grow up not knowing how to handle a gun with respect but i said nothing and walked by...:(

Shortly after that age, I was on a private range shooting FA with my old man. I was taught very clearly the responsibilities, and safety precautions, and of course, I listened.

Nowadays, you don't have many real "gun nuts". Lots of gun owners, but hunters don't count so there goes a major percentage... I'm talking recreational guys into this as a real hobby, a passion, better than football. Gunshows here are pretty desolate and nothing like when I was a kid.

Therefore you don't have all the kids in high school going to "gun club" (a .22lr range in the school basement) like I did. The local Boys club no longer has a .22 range. Most of these kids don't have fathers at all, much less one who takes them to the range and teaches them about guns.

I suppose alot of this comes down to economy. Most two-parent household have both parents working full-time to get by, and that does not leave much time for the range. And i'm sure, money for ammo isn't plentiful either.

Its all TV and video games now. These things babysit the kids, and they influence the kids. Maybe not your kid, but then your kid goes to school and learns it from the other kids... the kids without any parenting.

At least the kid in the cart had an interest in guns... instead of Barbie! The mother sure has alot to learn though... seems the answer to everything these days is to just roll your eyes and make believe it's not there.
 
Violence just is. You can see it anywhere you look … in the twisted landscape under your feet … in the fires that light the night sky … in the battered rocks along the shore … and certainly within the hearts of both man and beast.

~G. Fink
 
Do you know why the crime rate has gone up since, say the 40s or 50s? Its because there are more people now then there was back then. Its just like they say that there are more deadly car accidents now than then too, but when you look at statistics that show per capita, its actually less. Besides, in this day & age, the media tells you everything. Every little violent crime every little push & shove & they try to blow situations way out of proportion. Instead of reporting the news they like to make it. If you look at the crime rates per year as apposed to like the early 90s they are down.

Does society make criminals or violence? No! Its a part of us all. You don’t learn to be violent but you do have to learn to control those feelings or those emotions
 
Product Of Environment?

Not really..but if you have a tendency to be violent, today's atmosphere seems more conducive to it than the rosey cheeked, post WW -2, "Father Knows Best" Eisenhauer years when kids were watching the "Howdy Doody Show" after school, instead of playing "Resident Evil" on PlayStation2 or listening to Mainstream Gangstah Rap on Clear Channel.

The bottom line, of course is Mom and Dad. They are responsible for their kids.. when they're not working 2 jobs to make ends meet.

Take Care
 
Parents do not parent.
Adults do not share and pass forward to kids.

This is way the way baby's, kids, and teenager's development years are "supposed" to work.

Somewhere along the way Society "forgot" , or perhaps became "complacent".

Goverment had a heavy hand in brainwashing Society - that Government knew how to better raise kids.

This is called Indoctrination.

Add some of the posts I and others have read on THR of late -and no wonder kids think Firearms are a "cure all for what ails you".

More to responsible firearm ownership than firearms.

What did YOU do to pass forward to another today?
What Parenting did YOU do for YOUR kids Today?

Or did you just a buy another gun with gidgets, gadgets, fuzzy dice "thinking" mere ownership of such a ultimate firearm would mean NO training, No Practice, No investment to Preserve Freedoms, and "somebody else" would educate the kids coming up...and if "they" don't - you have the right to bitch about it?

Turn off the damn TV. Read to your kids about Freedoms, Firearms, or a Good Book like Ruark's The Old Man and The Boy. Attend a Eddie Eagle showing - better yet set one up and invite other kids and their parents to attend.

Responsibly
use the computer and if you dare...click on THR to find post by pax, and her passing forward with her kids. See Pics of TrapperReady's boy, Larry Ashcraft with grandkids, kids, neighbors Sheriffs, THR members...out shooting. BozemanMT and his wife shooting...etc., all sorts of Positve Responsible Parenting and Passing Forward.

Ignore the idiotic posts of buying skill and targets. Ignore the folks on THR not being responsible firearm owners.

Take YOUR kids shooting. Invite other Adults with kids to go shooting and - oh my gawd - you might just find you are passing forward, being not only an
Responsible Firearm owner to a kid - also to Adult that will also join in to Preserve Freedoms and Fight Tyranny.

Nah...better to buy skill and targets with a Ultimate Gun. Heck you ain't even got to train with these. Ain't even got to shoot them...Talisman takes of everything - right?

Yeah, kids, who needs 'em anyway? Only our future...
 
Kids don't learn violence from anywhere. It's genetically imprinted in all of us. The difference is instilling the discipline to suppress it when it's not necessary for survival and to use in measured amounts when it is.
 
A scene from my childhood

Brother:*points toy gun* "Bang! you're dead"
Me:"nuh-uh, you missed"
Brother:"Bang! Bang! you're dead"
Me:"nuh-uh, I'm invin-sta-ble"
Brother:*throws gun at me*

Little boys play at what they thing grow-ups do, it's your job as a parent to teach them if they do it for real they will be punished.

Children have not concept of permanance, severeity, consequences or death, so they have no idea the king of arguments they make among adults on internet forums:rolleyes:

The big rise in violence is among people who were never taught not to hit people, they have always existed, but them would be beaten senseless by their parents until they stopped

p.s.

Stop bashing Violent video games, yes they're violent, you watch violent movies, if I see a six year old playing GTA:SA and tell the kid's mom she's probably going to lecture me about how "I can't tell her how to raise her kids."

And for the last time, you could only access the "hot coffee" sex thing if you had your PS2 ILLEGALLY chipped, and conected it to a computer and downloaded to hack. and since GTA:SA is already the highest rating over here (18) I really don't see the fuss, a spoiled six your old wouldn't get past thefirst mission, and they woul probably rather throw the controller at somene than play it.
 
Think We're All In Agreement For The Most Part

Universities provide a vast pool of eager young interns chomping at the bit to do research as an entree to a job.. During my last 5 years with a "major media company", I conducted a very extensive study of how "violence" in films, television and video games "directly impact a young person's actions and perceptions." They do.

We all agree violence is inherent in humans. That's a given.

It's up to Mom and Dad to be responsible for their children..if not, there are more "violent venues" out there today than yesterday to influence a young mind.

To think otherwise is being unrealistic. Times change..not always for the best.

P.S.: PS2 "hot coffee?!" I don't even want to know what that is!

Take Care
 
I submit that children today learn violence from the television in two various means: violent brodcasting and violent video games. When this violence is acted out by children in real life, other children have a third means of learning violence. Yet, we as a nation are not yet to the point of addressing said causes of violence due to our selfishness; many in society would rather retain the causes of violence and ignore the evidence of their damaging effects. Industry and commericalism has duped its victims by making them mini-advocates of its violence, even so far as bringing personal rights into the discussion. Those that question violent content (violent brodcasting and violent video games) are seen as social agitators rather than honest reformers. The facts regarding violence from violent television brodcasting and violent video games have been posted and disseminated widely; it not sufficient just to blame this on parental controls. The distrubution of such violence needs to be addressed, not just the audience for it.

As I have said before (and have been criticized heavily for it), it behooves the firearms community to address Hollywood on this violence issue (in television broadcasting and video games) or the firearms community itself will suffer from it. Other hobbies police their own message and control the way they are portrayed in mass media; I never understood why the firearms community has ignored its public message.
 
Thank you, NineseveN.

NineseveN said:
Children with violent disorders and conditions that do bring about violence will gravitate towards violent TV, games and Music, but the tendency is already there, the problem has just not yet materialized in the actions of the child. And many kids will be attracted to that sort of media because of the excitement - children do not generally gravitate towards media that portrays "rape", even though that is an act of violence because there is no excitement in it; except maybe for someone with a predetermined sexual condition or defect as well. However, Quake, while being a video game where one kills demons and monsters, the child is put into the shoes of the hero that saves the world...which I would argue is where the real appeal lies with most children that do not already have some latent tendency towards violence.

You raise a good point. Let's look at some representative video game plots:

Doom 1-3 plus expansions and Final Doom: Hell is breaking loose on Mars or Jupiter's moons. The demons will use the ships present to reach earth and then everyone on the planet is *worse* than dead. You have the power to stop this, and you kick ass and take names. Demons are by definition morally reprehensible and should be kept from achieving their ends of choice by force.

Our Hero is morally correct.

Quake: See Doom, set on Earth.

Quake 2, 4: Aliens invade earth. They use semi-intact human bodies for raw material like we use wood. Being converted into a Strogg cyborg hurts rather badly and deprives the victim of the rights to life liberty and the pursuit of plasma weapons; again the cause is morally righteous.

Quake 3: no plot whatsoever.

Serious Sam: We are not alone. They arrive bearing napalm and RKKS. (Relatavistic Kinetic Kill Systems) We lost the war, but the Secret Uberweapon is a time machine, and we can only send one person back and he has to seriously break causality to ensure that they never make it (back?) to Earth.

All of these cases, I believe, meet the requirements of just war theory. The only thing is, in reality one man cannot stand against an army and win. This would be quite satisfying if it were possible, but current politics and tactics make this quite impossible in reality.

Take this with a grain of salt. I've gotten four hours of sleep the last four days, and it's 12:08 AM.
 
There are many thoughtful and interesting remarks here on a thread one might expect to be a flame-fest - one thing I love about THR. I think Beaucoup Ammo has it right in that there is plenty of evidence showing that violent TV can independently encourage violent behavior, but it is only one of many factors - many of which have already been described here. Some of the first results of a simple google search turned up a couple summaries; http://www.apa.org/releases/media_violence.html and http://www.psychologymatters.org/videogames.html.

But I think NineseveN's comment about the difference being in the frequency and speed of reporting has some merit. About 20 years ago there was a media frenzy around freeway shootings in southern CA. There was a guy at Irvine (Raymond Novaco) who wrote an interesting paper about it, the gist of which was that these sorts of episodes occur on a regular basis in lots of different places. There was nothing new about it, and nothing special about the fact that it was LA that time. (just found it online at http://www.uctc.net/papers/042.pdf). One might not agree with every theory he suggests, but I still like the paper .

I don't like trying to think of "gun violence" as a different thing from violence in general, but it does seem to me that people without experience or training often seem to think that what you are supposed to do when you pick up a gun is to put your finger on the trigger, and all to often, to point it at someone. I wonder where that came from?

John
 
Political agenda manifested as a moral and cultural problem.

Fueled by an obsessively driven Hollywood and network televison who have great difficulty in filling primetime TV with anything other than trash - violent or otherwise. Further fueled by a relentless stream of videos and games and music. Children often unbridled by proper discipline and often "fixed" with dangerous government sanctioned psychotropic drugs.

--------------------------------------
http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
 
beaucoup ammo said:
Children "learn" violence (involving guns, fists, clubs, cars,etc.) from a steady diet of unsupervised television. That's the majority. Sadly, there are those few who learn first hand.

"Gun Violence?" IMO, it should be "violence involving guns." Granted there's more of it on the tube than in the past..take that to the bank and earn interest. But kids have been playing "cops and robbers", "cowboys and indians" forever.

Violence is crammed down our throats from the tube, local news (if it bleeds it leads), cable..even "The National Geographic Channel" and "The Weather Channel" ("It Could Happen Tomorrow") use violence as a mainstay audience grabber.

PlayStation2..any gaming venue..is pure violence for the most part. I wouldn't single out "gun violence" and hold it up as an example, since violence is becoming more prevalent in every corner of the world we live in.

Music glorifies violence. It's more evolutionary than revolutionary..and to stay with the thread, kids learn violence (gun and other forms) primarily from TV and movies.

Take Care

If violent TV and video games is to blame, then explain the trend to the contrary. Today, graphic violence has never been as real as can be had on the latest generation game consoles. Movie producers have found out how to bring people closer to the action and put them behind the sights of an automatic weapon during a gun fight. There is more blood and gore on TV and video games than there ever has been. Rap music glorifies violence, sex, and drugs. And yet, we find that violent crime is actually decreasing in this country, and has been steadily for over ten years. If violence on TV was to blame for violence in youth, you would expect the opposite.

From The Bureau of Justice Statistics:
attachment.php

Note violent crime has decreased pretty steadily since 1993. Guess what else happened in 1993, genius. The original DOOM was released for PC. Then you had Duke Nukem 3D and Quake come out in 1996, Quake II in 1997, Half-Life in 1998. Grand Theft Auto 3 for Playstation in 2001. That recieved a lot of press. The world didn't end and crime is still going down. Get the point? You could make a more effective argument that violent video games have been responsible for a DECREASE in violent crime.

My mom tried her damdest to keep us away from violence as kids. Yet the movies we enjoyed the most were the ones kept on the bottom shelf, hidden from view--Die Hard, Berverly Hills Cop, and Top Gun. I've had toy guns and G. I. Joes for almost as long as I can remember. I had nerf wars, BB gun wars, paintball wars, and airsoft wars. So too, we were assimilated to the video game culture progressing through Super Mario Brothers on old school Nintendo, to Mortal Kombat on Sega and gradually up to Xbox. I just conquered DOOM 3 today.

The problem is not the toy guns, video games, and TV. It isn't the music. I blame it on two things--an unnatural societal pressure to surpress and deny natural aggression and the natural requirements thereof, and an inability to distinguish TV and toys from reality. Humans undeniably possess the capacity for violence and compansion and the capability to love and to hate. We have all been consumed, at times, by urges to lash out against a threat or obstacle, whether actual or perceived. There is healthy and unhealthy ways to control these urges. Denying they exist or seeking theropy or doping your kid up on Prozac or Riddilen is probably the wrong thing to do. Letting them run until they drop, teaching them a martial art, putting them on a football team, or giving them constructive ways to vent anger and aggression are far more healthy and effective. You'd be surprised what chopping wood can do to get a bad day at school or work out of your system. Overall, people need discipline. Time outs don't work. I got my butt whopped when I deserved it and usually knew I deserved it. Eventually it became clear that while stern, my parents were fair and it was far easier to obey and behave than try to figure out a way to outsmart them. If a child has discipline and a constructive, healthy way to vent anger and frustration, then it won't be as likely to fester and build inside an eventually erupt. And discipline instills maturity. Maturity is needed to acknowledge the very real differences between movies and life and toys and the real thing. I was taught to shoot at age four--before I entered kindergarten and before even, I had much of an opprotunity to explore toy guns. Growing up in a rural area, I saw deer hanging from chains every fall. I was taught at an early age, very early, some would say too early, to respect firearms. I knew what they were capable of. Toys were always just that. I was taught to respect and obey rules, and even at that age had the maturity to acknowledge the change in attitude required to go from playing Marines on my grandpa's property to eating a peanut butter sandwhich for lunch, then shooting the .22. I always respected the capabilities of the "weapon" in my hand. Toys were toys. Real guns required acknowledgement and respect for its capabilities. I had the maturity and discipline to seperate the real thing from fiction because that is how I and my two younger siblings were raised. My dad and his two brothers as well as my grandpa and his brothers were the same. Show your children and they will watch. Teach your children and they will learn.
 

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I remember my reaction when GTA 3 first came out and my friend's brother (16 at the time) demonstrated it for us. My instant reaction was to think "Wow, what an amazing game. Too bad I could never play it. I hope they use the engine to make a similar game where you play a cop.*"

Good guys kill bad guys (or evil monsters). Games that blur that line or reverse it have never appealed to me. Even in fantasy I have to be sure that I'm the good guy. That's just the way I was brought up.

Then again, The Shield is my favorite television show. I find that I identify with Detective Lemansky the most, for he's the most moral of the Strike Team. Even still, I wouldn't want to be any character on that show, and none of them are role models (nor should they be). If they ever made a video game out of it I seriously doubt I would play it. 24 is a different story, and I'm looking forward to the upcoming game. Interestingly enough, both Vic Mackey and Jack Bauer held a knife to a character's eyeball this week, but for totally different reasons.

*Yes, I realize there was "vigilante" mode.
 
What I Belive We All Agree On

(1) More violent "entertainment" available to children.

(2) Mom and Dad are responsible for their children.

(3) Humans have a genetic predisposition for violence, just as we do for other emotions.

The idea of "justifiable violence" is something that parents need to explain to their children...as Devonai hinted at:"Interestingly enough, both Vic Mackey and Jack Bauer held a knife to a character's eyeball this week, but for totally different reasons."

Take Care
 
I think MTMilitiaman has made the case against all of those saying that the music, movies and games has caused or had a great impact on the violence we see in society, so now it is up to you all to disprove that.

Explain how violent crime is going down if the media violence is exponentially going up at the same time.

If you cannot reconcile this with verifiable facts, I think the honest thing to do would be to admit that you were wrong and accept what the rest of us already know.

The ball is in your court now.
 
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