Where is "same as" coming from????

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Let me add this disclaimer. The subject was not meant to be demeaning to any reloader, new or old. It's an observation......
I don't always make a thread when I think of it, sometimes I don't have time right then so I make a note and get to it later. It could have been weeks since I saw "their the same thing". I may be old (to reloading) but I have all of my guns in one piece and likewise 8 fingers and 2 thumbs and both eyes. My reloading motto, "if it isn't printed in one of my 10 reloading manuals, there must be a reason"........
 
My load manuals still say you are wrong. They are not the same. I don't know about all the rest of the powders, but HP-38 and W-231 have different load listings...
 
From the horses mouth, guys took 30 second to send the e-mail and 20 minutes to get a response.





There is no doubt or debate. HP38 and W231 are the exact same product marketed under different labels. This is true today. It was true last year and it was true in 1970. They are completely interchangeable as they are the same powder



Mike Daly

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From: Nathan[mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 8:58 AM
To: Help Account
Subject: Hp38 = W231





There is a bit of debate on whether these two powders are one and the same, can you bring some clarity either way, thank you.





Nathan
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Well let me add to the fire.
HS-6 is the same as WW-540
HS-7 is the same as WW-571
Bushmaster, the differences you see in some of your manuals is simply the means, equipment, and different bullets used between HP-38 and WW-231. The same goes for the WW-296-- H-110 debate. Different test barrels, completely different bullet, even if the same weight, yields different results.

As for the claim that different lots of the same powder can have a different burning rate, not in my experience. Not for over the counter canister grade powder. Some of the surplus powder I have IS or HAS different characteristics.

Beetle bailey, good to have this type of thread. It gets this kind of stuff out in the open.
 
There is no doubt or debate. HP38 and W231 are the exact same product marketed under different labels.
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Then perhaps you could email Hodgdon back and ask them why W231 is more expensive than HP38? Only suckers would pay 8% more for the same powder simply because of a different label.
 
Otto said:
Only suckers would pay 8% more for the same powder simply because of a different label.
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I agree.

I am guessing the Winchester name is that much better (or at least cost Winchester more to operate then Hodgden). This works with so many things though. Bread under the "Rainbow" brand at the store is the same as the "Great Value" bread, but some choose to pay .50 more a loaf.

The more people whom don't know this is fine by me. Last time I was at Bass Pro, absolutely no W231 and hadn't been in a while, they had several cans of HP38 on hand.
 
My load manuals still say you are wrong. They are not the same. I don't know about all the rest of the powders, but HP-38 and W-231 have different load listings...
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I think it was already posted... "you can't believe everything that you read."

Maybe update your manuals? Or the search function will list many threads covering your quandary of HP-38 vs. W231. One from 2005 with identical answers : HP38 vs. W231 (hint- your opinion is listed there too!)

Justin
 
How can you quote the load manuals as gospel on this? Diffrent manuals or even the same manual for a diffrent edition can show varying loadings for the SAME powders.
 
"I contacted Hodgdon. Hodgdon specifically told me -- as they tell everyone else -- that the two powders are the same. Maybe some homework would do for old- and newtimers alike before hurling insults."

Yes. And a few others as well. But, if you think a half dozen examples negate ALL of the newly "wise" reloaders we read you are wrong. Too.

Anyone choosing to guess about powder matches they were "told' about is a Darwin candidate. And we have plenty of load data for correctly labeled powders anyway so what's the issue?

We old dudes didn't get to be "old hands" by being dumb dudes. ??

No insults intended, just facts.
 
contacted Hodgdon. Hodgdon specifically told me -- as they tell everyone else -- that the two powders are the same. Maybe some homework would do for old- and newtimers alike before hurling insults.
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As Ronald Regan used to say, "Believe what they tell you but verify independently."

Bushmaster, the differences you see in some of your manuals is simply the means, equipment, and different bullets used between HP-38 and WW-231. The same goes for the WW-296-- H-110 debate. Different test barrels, completely different bullet, even if the same weight, yields different results.

As for the claim that different lots of the same powder can have a different burning rate, not in my experience. Not for over the counter canister grade powder. Some of the surplus powder I have IS or HAS different characteristics.
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Here are a couple examples where the same bullets, same brass and same primers where used but the results where different between HP38 and W231 from Speer and Lyman. Lymans data showing pressures really shows quite some disparity and Lyman's been in the reloading business a long time.
 

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Lyman is also in a different area of the country so there are differences in the environmental variables. Does Hodgdon use identical testing procedures? Does Hodgdon use the same equipment? Does Hodgdon use the same method of data collection? Does Hodgdon use the same method of obtaining and setting published max pressure?
 
I guess I'm a sucker because I still follow the reloading advise in my manuals. I use the listed powder and don't interchange them. I'm not real smart but I've followed the load manuals since 1974 and haven't had a problem yet. I load a lot of -4350 and -4064. The load data for IMR,AA, and H are a little different and I follow them. They all seem to shoot about the same but I don't interchange the data. YMMV.
 
It`s funny how some will argue a point for ever that can be settled with a simple phone call or e-mail but, they refuse to do it.

St Marks has long sold its powders to both Winchester(Olin) and Hodgdon. Winchester (Olin) doesn`t manufacture powders but buys them the same as Hodgdon did until it aquired IMR. Both Hodgdon and Winchester put their labels on the same ball powders and still do. The differences one sees in the manuals between these powders is nothing more then lot to lot variance and if one takes the time they find the difference is normally well less then the 10% difference allowed in tolerance. This is tolerance is reflected in the warning in all reloading manuals to reduce max loads by 10% and work up, You don`t know without useing it if the lot of powder you have is on the slow or fast end of tolerance.

Hodgdon also buys powder from ADI in Australia. All their "Extreem" line is produced by them, and has a ADI counterpart and so labled.
Alliant also doesn`t manufacture all their poweders but buys some from companies that will produce to their spec. Norma has made some of the Reloader series in the past and had the same powders with their own label.

If you look on the powder jug labels you`ll see the place of origin listed, I have Alliant powders made in the USA, Sweden, and Switzerland, on my shelf. Norma MRP and MRP2 are the same as Alliant R22 and R25 as two examples.

Here is a link to the Hodgdon MSDS sheet on their Ball powders. The Winchester and Hodgdon names are listed in them.
If you take a minute to look, they also list in the extrude powder section, ADI powder names with the name the same Hodgdon powder is known by(AR2209/H4350 or AR2208/Varget for example).
http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/MSDS Fil...ical Powders/St Marks - Spherical Powders.pdf
 
These threads are getting very old very fast. You can believe what you want and you can post data which is decades old but that won't change the fact that all the powders I listed in my above post come off the same line in the same plant. They even use the same bottles now and change only the label and cap color. Check the back of the bottles and you will see the plant is the same on the HP-38 and W231 powders. I haven't seen it myself but a friend said he even saw the same lot number on the two. (I can't personally verify that though)

Look on the Hodgdon load data sire and you will find the current data is EXACTLY the same in charge, velocity and pressures. Argue all you want but that won't change the facts.

Have a nice day, I'm done here...
 
If you check the Hodgdon Load Data Site you will see the data is also exactly the same too.
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I agree with ArchAngelCD, I would just like to also add; that powders that are commonally 'known' to be the exact same powders should be still cross checked with other data for one's own piece of mind, before substituting any loading data.
And not just totally rely on what a guy on the phone said or whats disscussed in a forum.
 
Greetings,

On the other hand IMR-4227 and H-4227 are NOT the same, but have the same number...

Or..Did they make them the same in the last years and I did not notice? :eek:

Thank you
 
On the other hand IMR-4227 and H-4227 are NOT the same, but have the same number...

Or..Did they make them the same in the last years and I did not notice?
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Oddly enough, the powders with the same or similar numbers are usually not the same. For instance, H-4895 is not the same as IMR 4895.
 
I load a lot of -4350 and -4064. The load data for IMR,AA, and H are a little different and I follow them. They all seem to shoot about the same but I don't interchange the data.
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Careful here, nobody said these were the same powders. They are not! You are confusing same name with same powder/different name, not what we are talking about here.
 
Norma also manufactures the Federal Premium ammunition line. They draw brass for Nosler Custom ammunition. S&B makes WWB ammunition even though it says "Made in the USA". Even my tiny company manufactures ammunition for other dealers and wholesalers to rebrand as their own ammunition.
 
"Lyman is also in a different area of the country so there are differences in the environmental variables....etc."

And all that list shows exactly how the "same" powders but labeled differently will then load/act differently in different environments? That's an interesting idea.
 
You have to be a complete fool to think they ran the data for the powder on the same day.

You have read from the source that they are the exact same powder and have been since the dawn of time yet you are too stubborn to accept it as fact. What more do you want?
 
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