Where should the eyes be during the draw?

[harrygunner]

I practice live fire drawing from concealment.

After the "Go", I eye the BG, move off the line and draw. But, I've noticed I have a habit of quickly glancing to the side while drawing, then, reacquiring the BG.

After being asked about that, I realized shooting an innocent that may be moving into the line of fire or being unaware of innocents in the direction the BG is moving toward is a big concern to me.

It's been suggested I just eye the BG. On the other hand, tunnel vision will make innocents virtually invisible once the shooting starts.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Don Lu]

Good question, my guts say stay on the target..but I understand your logic on the other side...I look forward to reading others responses.

 

[shooter503]

Where do you look when you are throwing a ball or throwing a dart at a dartboard? Where do you look as you bring binoculars up to your eyes to examine a distant object?

 

[win71]

Strange

I don't understand hesitation by clearing the range prior to shooting. If you are training so you will be more effective in an emergency where speed and reasonable accuracy is utmost I think you better keep your eyes on the target. When and if you eliminate the threat you should be looking everywhere for everything , primarily secondary threats. I don't think it's a good idea to be drawing your weapon in anticipation of a gun fight while at the same time taking your eyes off the other gunfighter!!!!!!!!

 

[BullfrogKen]

Its situational specific.

Sometimes its appropriate to focus on the threat right in front of you. Other times not having a 360 awareness will cause you to miss the bigger threat beside you.

Don't get locked into either as rote habit.

 

[evan price]

The eyes are on target, bring weapon up and when sights line up trigger is squeezed.

 

[harrygunner]

I'm going to spend more time/money on training sessions that have moving, dynamic targets.

Also, going to change two habits:

1) In daily life, I'm always noting possible threats and locations of cover. I'm going to add a rolling recollection of how people are placed around possible threats.

2) Drop my inclination to scan at the beginning of a draw on a known threat until that threat is neutralized. (Note: We always practice scanning for other BG's after the first either drops his/her weapon or is otherwise stopped.)

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[mbt2001]

Your eyes have to be on the opponent and see him as in a picture frame (him and what is around and behind him). Your brain will automatically be processing other data and your are talking about a tenth of a second or a second in which you will be focused on the bad guy.

Same as in boxing, if your eyes are not on the opponent, you can't hit him...

Have you even noticed that when you are throwing a ball, and you see something that you DON't want to hit in the area you are throwing... So you throw the ball and do what? Hit what you didn't want to hit... Why? Because you were looking at it. Your brain automatically works that way and in the pinch, you might shoot what you are looking at. Keep your eyes on the oppoenent double tap, evaluate the assailent and the area.

Good luck

 

[Lonestar49]

Point or aim

Quote: Where should the eyes be during the draw?
------------------

As well-stated above, for whatever the situation calls for..

That is why point-shooting (practice) should be 50% of any range time practices, along with sight practice.

The best of both worlds, for a troubled world.


LS

 

[Deaf Smith]

I never look at my gun or my holster or anything but where the threat or target is. Even changes mags I look downrange. Practice shooting from the leather just about always. Learn to hip shoot out to at least 3 yards with good hits. Lean to shoot while moving. Go shoot at least twice a year in very low light (now THAT is an experience!)

Take it as if it was for real. Cause one day it just might be real.

 

[shooter503]

The amount of time spent focussing on what you intend to hit is minimal. It is a small time between scanning for threats, pre and post the shots, but it is extremely important. I do not want to sound too "Zen" but, with practice, you will hit where you look (and this becomes increasingly important in point shooting). (That subject has been beaten to death in many previous posts). A confirmation of this is reports from LE training that show that when a target is used that involves a weapon the hits tend to be in the area of the weapon, rather than COM, because the shooter's attention is drawn to the weapon.

The more intense your focus on a particular part of the target the smaller your groups will be. Some instructions even suggest aiming for a particular button etc but the downside of this would have to be increased time to shoot which is clearly undesirable.

Bear in mind a real world target is 3D and may not be face on to you. The point of aim needs to be adjusted accordingly.

 

[obxned]

On the spot where several holes are about to appear.

 

[sacp81170a]

Kendo emphasizes not only metsuke (focus of the eyes) but your whole state of mind and being. The appropriate state of mind for what you're describing is called fudoshin. You haven't shifted to your attack yet (zanshin) but you're aware of but not unduly concerned by your surroundings. You don't let your mind get captured by things that are of no significance and can still react to things that are significant. It's hard to describe in words since it goes beyond conscious thought processes. Dang, there I go again with the warrior mystic stuff. Hard to understand if you've never experienced it, but it needs no explanation if you have.

 

[geekWithA.45]

The threat scan should be a separate activity not integrated to the draw.

The threat scan should be performed as appropriate. It is frequently but not invariably indicated as a pre draw activity, and lets face it, its bad practice to engage in a gunfight not knowing your nearest cover.

Your presentation should be practiced such that the sights automatically go wherever your dominant eye is looking.

 

[MinnMooney]

A great quote by BullfrogKen : "It's situational specific."

I'm simply amazed and slightly horrified at the word (or inference of the word) "always" or "never".
What I'm seeing in the previous posts is that you should "always" keep your eyes on the baddie or never take your eyes off the baddie until he's neutralized. So, that rule fits whether your in a crowded McDonalds or out in the country walking at night on some (almost) deserted road. mmmmm
Something just isn't rational about that.
In the McDonalds sceneario : Is there a french-fry cook right behind the bad guy? Is there some clueless customer about to walk in front of the imminent shooter? Is there an infant in a carry-along car seat sitting high on the table that will be in line for your shot as you're ducking for cover while shooting? mmmmm
Never take your eyes off the bad guy. If I followed that rule then I'd be presuming that I'm more important that anyone else in the crowded fast food joint by virtue of the fact that I'm stopping the BG from hurting, maining or killing more people than I might do. mmmmmmmm
Something still isn't rational about that.
What am I missing about the "ALWAYS" or "NEVER" rule???

 

[shooter503]

MinnMooney,
You are missing the fact that these discussions generally spiral down into semantics.

It's very simple. Sure you should be aware of surroundings immediately prior to and after the shot but, and this is so obvious that it seems a redundant comment - if you are not looking at the intended point of impact at the time of the shot you are not going to hit it.

After the "Go", I eye the BG, move off the line and draw. But, I've noticed I have a habit of quickly glancing to the side while drawing, then, reacquiring the BG.

That was HarryGunner's original statement.

Now, he clearly has a much greater ability than I do because he can eye the BG, draw, glance to the side, re-aquire the bad guy and get off an accurate shot before the BG has time to respond. Presumably though he has already cleared the area of "french fry cooks, clueless customers and babys in high chairs" before he commits himself to drawing at all.

What I'm seeing in the previous posts is that you should "always" keep your eyes on the baddie or never take your eyes off the baddie until he's neutralized.

Once you have decided to engage this is true - otherwise you may be a dead man. Nobody said that this almost instantaneous concentration should limit situational awareness.

 

[CWL]

If it needs shootin', then why would you take your eyes off of it?

Using proper situational awareness, you should have already scanned the area to either side and behind of threat before your draw.

During draw-gunfight-end of most direct threat, your eyes should be focused on engaged target, then your training should make you do a sweep outside of target 'box' to break tunnelvision and alert you to what else may be a threat around you.

The only reason I can think that you need to take your eyes off-of target/threat is if you are moving towards cover.

 

[win71]

You misunderstood

What am I missing about the "ALWAYS" or "NEVER" rule???

Your comments are fine. They just don't have much to do with the original post. The way I read it, the situation has already been analyzed. The decision has been made to draw and fire and the draw has been initiated. From that point until the trigger pull your eyes should be on the target.

 

[MinnMooney]

I don't think that I'm "misunderstanding" or "missing the fact" about anything. This is from the harrygunner's original statement :
"After being asked about that, I realized shooting an innocent that may be moving into the line of fire or being unaware of innocents in the direction the BG is moving toward is a big concern to me."
I understand it to be that he recognizes that there is a definate need to deal with the bad guy but harrygunner is mindful of the fact that he's not fully aware of what or who might get in the path of his bullet.
Harrygunner was taking a couple of nano-seconds to glance to the sides to check the situation because he was concerned with doing more harm than good.
Please, don't tell me that I've written something that has little to do with the original post when you've obviously read things into the original post that just aren't there.

by win71 : "The way I read it, the situation has already been analyzed."

The situation that harrygunner actually says is that he's unsure of who would be in the way if the baddie moves to the side or if there is an innocent moving into the line of fire. That would be and is my concern, also.
I refuse to train myself to shoot with tunnel vision no matter what the situation. Harrygunner has a real concern and he's questioning the estabolished(?) training methods and I applaud him for doing that.

 

[MinnMooney]

Harry

By harrygunner (original quote : After being asked about that [glanceing to the side during the draw], I realized shooting an innocent that may be moving into the line of fire or being unaware of innocents in the direction the BG is moving toward is a big concern to me.

Five years ago when I made the decision to carry a deadly weapon on my person for nearly every waking moment, I knew that I took on the responsibility of my own defense against those who would cause me great bodily harm. I, also, decided that I would use that weapon to aide others who might need my help against those who would do them great bodily harm.
In the years since I've made those decisions, I've fine-tuned what my planned reactions to various scenearios might be. It kept coming back to the phrase, "Don't do more harm than good" . I now live by that phrase. If I can save my own life or someone else's life and be nearly assured that I'm not doing as much or more harm to some innocent, then that's what I'll do. What I don't want to do (& that's why it's constantly on my mind) is to pull the trigger on someone who I've already determined will do great bodily harm to me or someone else and then find out a second later that I've ALSO shot some innocent person that came walking into this horrible situation.... all due to the fact that once I determined that I needed to shoot, I never took my eyes off the baddie long enough to check for what will be in my bullet's path in 1.5 seconds.... NOT right now ('cause the bullet isn't on it's way yet) but in 1.5-2 seconds from now because THAT's when the harm can be done.

Harrygunner is concerned that in 2 seconds, an innocent may be in the path of his bullet and he's concerned. I think about that every day when I holster my pistol or when I see some fight breaking out that might escalate into something lethal.
If saving my our life at all costs is what it's all about then drawing and firing as fast (& accurately) as possible without ever taking your eyes off the perp is the way to go.

I'm not talking down to anyone on this thread or mean any disrespect to anyone. I was told in two separate replies that I didn't understand or wrote something that had nothing to do with the original quote and this is my reply to them.

 

[ChristopherG]

Buzzer goes off (or baloon goes up): eyes remain directed at the target, but refocus on the space directly between my eyes and the target, about two feet in front of my face, where the sights are about to appear.

 

[Sweatnbullets]

Where should the eyes be during the draw?

In your head! duh!

 

[renegade1alpha]

As a combat veteran of Iraq and as a police officer, ALWAYS keep your eye on the bad guy(s)! Your focus should be on the closest bad guy or the one that is the biggest threat. As far as tunnel vision, there will always be some no matter what. Even the most experienced gun fighters will attest to that. You also have to train yourself to "threat scan" 360 degrees, especially AFTER you think the situation has passed. That is when people tend to get hurt because they let their guard down.

As for innocents in the area, if and when a gun is drawn and/or the bullets start flying you can better believe that the immediate area will look like a ghost town. People will un-ass the area quickly! That does not diminish the fact that innocent people can get hurt because there is also those that will poke their heads out to see what is going on. That is why practicing to hit your target is so important. The more rounds you put in the bad guys the less misses that travel down the street you are responsible for.

If you have the right training, when you draw your weapon muscle memory will place it right where it needs to be. Things will come naturally to you. Unfortunately the only real way to see how you will react is to be in that situation, and I hope that you never have to be.

 

[Sweatnbullets]

Visual Input

When it comes to vision, I see things a little differently than a lot of other people. There is the necessary visual input to make the shot (see what you need to see) and there is another aspect of vision that people tend to ignore. I believe that the subconscious mind will choose the height and the extension of the gun due to the amount of visual input that the brain will require too solve the entire problem.

The visual information the brain requires is as follows

(1) The ability to make the hit.
(2) The ability to ID the threat.
(3) The ability to have a field of vision to comprehend the entire problem.
(4) The ability to have a field of vision that facilitates movement that has purpose.
(5)The ability to have a field of vision that facilitates maneuvering through and around obstacles.
(6)The ability to recognize the changes in your position in regards to the OODA loop.
(7)The ability to eliminate visual interference or negative visual input.

In my opinion, the dynamics or the chaos of the encounter will dictate the height, the extension, the position, and whether you use one hand or two hands, in regards to your HG. This is why I feel so strongly about the ability to shoot throughout your drawstroke and from every angle and position. It is my opinion that this natural act (the subconscious mind picking the best position of the handgun so that the brain can take in the necessary visual information) is a much better idea than a conditioned act (always bring the gun to line of sight) that is not as well rounded or versatile and has many negatives connected with it.

I think that the ability to put your bullets right where you are looking is a very natural and important ability. This is not some skill that takes time to develop. I could introduce anyone, to their natural ability to do this in a day or two.......and you would own that natural ability for the rest of your life with very little need for maintenance.

I believe that natural abilities should go hand in hand with your conditioned abilities. If your conditioned abilities fail you (such as not being able to get to your line of sight) your natural abilities can take over. All your bases are covered due to being well rounded so you just keep rolling right along.......as opposed to being flat sided.

 

[Alphazulu6]

Yeah I am going to have to vote with on the target.