OC Stops BG in Robbery

Status
Not open for further replies.

devildog66

Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2007
Messages
175
Location
Virginia
This is from Phil at VCDL and is a follow-up to a convenience store shooting that occurred in Richmond VA last weekend. Many will note the good guy's chosen carry piece, which only proves to me that a gun is always better than no gun. A Bravo Zulu to the gun owner !

*****************************************************************
1. Exclusive: I met with the gun owner who saved lives in the Richmond Golden Market shooting last week
*****************************************************************

On Friday I received a surprise call from the gun owner who has been in the press this week for saving lives at a Richmond store. The gun owner used a replica 1875 Remington Army .45 Long Colt with a 7 1/2 inch barrel to stop a criminal who had shot the store's owner.

He wanted to remain anonymous, but called so that the story could be set straight, as much of what was in the press wasn't accurate.

Board member Dennis O'Connor and I ended up meeting with him today (Saturday) at the Golden Market store, where the shooting had taken place one week earlier.

Besides being able to actually see the layout of the store, Dennis and I got to see the security videos of the shooting!

We also got to meet the store owner who had been shot twice during the hold up, but is now back at his store. More on this great man later.

Here is what we know from talking to the gun owner and watching the videos:

The gun owner (GO) was in the store waiting in line to pay for an item when the bad guy (BG) came in wearing dark sunglasses and trying to coverup his face while brandishing a revolver. The BG yelled for everyone to get down and before anybody could react, immediately walked over to the store owner and in a cold-blooded fashion shot him twice. The owner then dropped down behind the counter. It wasn't more than 2 seconds after the BG first walked in the doors that he shot the store owner.

Those shots at the store owner missed a teenage boy's head by inches.

The GO yelled for the BG to drop his gun as the GO drew his gun. The BG opened fire on the GO. The GO returned fire, hitting the BG as the GO dove hard for the floor behind some barrels full of ice and drinks.

The BG ran towards the back of the store, aiming his gun at an innocent man laying prone on the floor. Luckily the BG was too distracted by the GO to shoot the man. There is no doubt in my mind that the man would have been shot in cold blood that day if it weren't for that GO returning fire.

The BG kept trying to get to the front of the store by walking up various aisles and firing shots at the GO as he did so. At one point cans of tinned meat exploded on a shelf as the BG took a shot at the GO.

What was bizarre was that the BG actually was strutting around like he owned the place while under fire! As he approached the front of one aisle, he again pointed a gun at a person on the ground and was about to execute him, when he was again distracted by the GO.

Finally the GO spotted the BG at the front of an aisle standing in the open.

Much to his surprise, the GO discovered that when he dove hard for the floor he had somehow broken the trigger on his gun!

But the gun was a single action, so the GO pushing himself up with one arm, aimed the gun, pulled the hammer back and let it fly forward - twice.

Although seriously wounded three times, the BG came at the GO. The BG tried to grab the GO's gun since the BG's gun was out of ammunition. A life-and-death struggle began. The GO got a grip on the BG's gun and the GO hit the BG twice hard on the temple with the 7 1/2" barrel on his rather heavy gun.

The BG finally broke off the engagement, tried to run out the front door, but collapsed at the door.

The GO secured the BG's gun and keeping an eye on the now unconscious bad guy, called 9-1-1.

The BG has now died (he was in critical condition since the shooting).

The police showed up a minute or so after the 9-1-1 call and initially had everyone in the store at gun point and handcuffed some until they could figure out who was who.

What really impressed me was that on the surveillance video, the owner, while shot twice by the BG, was walking around making sure that all of his customers were OK after the shooting had ended. He only let himself collapse after he was sure they were OK! Words fail me on this. I am so glad that he made it. What a dichotomy - a BG who shoots an innocent person without provocation, almost killing a teenager while doing so - caring for no one but himself. And then the store owner who, while seriously wounded, making sure his customers were OK. Evil exists and so does Good. Both were on display in those two minutes of terror. Luckily only the bad guy was killed. The owner was walking with a limp, clearly in some pain. :-(

A lot of people owe their lives to that GO. However, he is having none of it, saying that he simply did what he had to do.

--

The GO wanted me to share the following points:

* Buy a quality gun - don't use some cheap $90 gun to protect your life. He considered his gun to be a good one and even then the trigger broke under the extreme stress of a life-and-death battle.

* Practice with your gun, get training, and be good with that gun.

* More and more BGs are choosing to kill in cold blood to get what they want. If they can't live the "good life, " then they don't care if their crimes send them to jail.

* He also noted that fewer and fewer BGs are getting any jail time.

--

Here are my thoughts from watching that tape:

* Talk about a cold-blooded, fast attack where an innocent was shot without warning! Unbelievable. Situational awareness is really important. Luck doesn't hurt, either.

* Open carry was an advantage in this case because in the video I saw just how fast the GO managed to draw his gun and begin to return fire. You always hear about how open carry is so bad tactically - you'll be the first one shot, etc. Oh, yeah? The GO had a HUGE gun in plain sight and he was NOT shot. Who got shot first? An unarmed store owner.

* I am betting that the BG was on drugs, big time. He was hit with THREE 45-CALIBER BULLETS, with at least two of those hits causing grievous injury, and he continued the fight as if he had not even been hit at all! In fact he was strutting like a peacock who owned the place as he was walking up and down the aisles trying to get to a position where he could shoot the GO. As a gun owner, you need to be prepared for that eventuality and keep shooting the BG in his center of mass until he stops his attack. Don't think one shot, or even two shots, are going to do it. And a head shot might well be what it takes to stop such an attack quickly.

* If you are out of ammunition, a gun does make a great weapon with which to bludgeon someone in hand-to-hand combat.

* This shooting bolstered both sides of the argument about how much ammunition one should carry. The good guy got off only four shots (of course his gun had a broken trigger and that didn't help). The bad guy got off six shots and ran out of ammunition (thankfully). But in my mind, and having had some advanced training, I think an extra magazine for a semi-auto, or a reloader for a revolver, is a good idea. With someone like the BG above, if you run out of ammunition before he does, he will execute you. Period.
 
Sorry that no one can take things lightly and understand a little sarcasm.
 
Last edited:
Wow Birdmang....that wasn't a biased comment :rolleyes:

I happen to trust my life to a G19 filled with 147gr HST's and I am DEFINITELY not a "gang-banger"...but let's not get off topic.

I think this story puts a lot in perspective. Things will happen fast, and unless trained and ready to react (condition yellow at all times) you may not be able to do what needs to be done.

Kudos to the GO for his courageousness AND humbleness.
 
I forgot to add that I got that information form a news reporter talking about the kinds of guns that mexican gang bangers like to get from the US!

I should give you my sarcasm glasses that work on the internet!
--( )-( )--
 
Wow what a crazy story. trigger broke when he dove huh? I will save that for myself. Don't dive with finger on trigger.
I agree that it does prove a point that round count can matter. If the BG had a 15+ round 9mm or something like that it would have been way different. Glad everyone who needs to be is ok. Gotta love Karma.
 
I bet it was a semi automatic glock that gang bangers only carry!
--( )-( )--I carry a HK USP .45...am I in SF?...cool, I always wanted to be a Navy SEAL. :rolleyes:

While I don't normally think OC is a good idea, it worked well in this incident. Well done GO. :)
 
Here is what I believe in general that relates to this story and thread.

1. It does seem more and more criminals shoot first and then demand money. This makes no sense as a dead or seriously wounded victim may not be able to comply with demands for money but these criminals are obviously not intelligent and are more interested in being cool and being "gansta" than in being smart. I think sometimes the shots are unintentional. Let's face it, these are not well practiced shooters and they do not understand safe gun handling. But since the gun will be pointed at the victim it makes little difference to him whether the gunshot wound was deliberate or not. The days of advising victims to comply and they won't get hurt are long gone. Many cooperative victims still get shot.

2. The strutting mentioned repeatedly does not surprise me. Again, these are young men with nothing positive in their lives. No family, no education or career, no sense of pride in anything other than being gangsters. So at those times they show off and parade themselves. Once more, the smart thing is to lay low and not be a target, but these are not smart people, they are ghetto gangsters who are accustomed to getting their way when they brandish weapons and threaten violence and don't react intelligently when violence is visited right back upon them.

3. Note that the criminal got a hold of the citizen's gun and grappled for control of it. I wish I had a dollar for every time someone on one of these forums has assured me that no bad guy would EVER grab his gun. Face it, it happens. It happens to cops all the time. It can happen to anyone... even YOU. Here's where that 7.5" barrel becomes a bad idea. Too much handle to offer the criminal.

Here are some observations about this specific incident.

1. A long barreled single action revolver for self defense is a very bad choice. Of course it's better than nothing, but it is so very, very far down the list of guns to choose that it becomes a very bad choice.

2. Ordering the criminal to surrender. Yeah, right. I am not a cop. I will not be arresting anyone. My favorite gunfight is the one where I am behind the perp and he has no idea I am armed. If you think for one moment that I would hesitate in putting a round in the back of that guy's head then think again. In a real life or death situation the last thing I want is a fair fight. I want every advantage including surprise (which is where I prefer concealed carry). If I am in a position to shoot an armed robber in the back then guess what, the SOB is getting shot in the back. Period.

3. Open carry. Yes, it's faster to access the gun. But it also identifies you as armed. In this case the gun wasn't noticed by the criminal but what if he had seen it as he walked in and began the robbery? The gun owner would have been the first one shot rather than the store owner. I am not necessarily opposed to open carry, but there are some clear disadvantages IMO, and losing the element of surprise is a big one.
 
Last edited:
I much prefer shooting a 1911, but stories like this are exactly why I carry a XDM. If it turns from hand to hand combat to the two of us running around a store, I sure would prefer 20 shots!


-Matt
 
Just remember that up close like that it’s easy for the gun to go out of battery which means 0 shots. I do agree that for a full size handgun I’ll take my Glock 20 any day.

I think this might be one of the best self defense shootings I’ve ever read. Bad guy dead, everyone ok, open carry, unique gun, it’s all good stuff.

Dan
 
When I ran my opencarry.org forum seminars/shoots, most of the attendees had no training at all.

The realities of close in conflict, as described by Phil Vancleeve, require training. Learning by doing is not a good idea. Fortunately, the good guy worked it out on his own.

Barrel length, long or short, is not a factor in a grappling situation. What are factors are TIMING and training. If he's in range, the bad guy can grab your gun, hand, wrist or forearm and mess up your shot. Claiming that a short barrel will reduce the chances of losing a gun ignores the real problem: knowing how to handle close in work.

I disagree that a single action revolver is a bad choice. It worked fine for the situation. It is not optimal. The real problem was a lack of training and a low quality revolver. However, even without training, the good guy prevailed by REFUSING to give up!

Additionally, we do no know the make and model of the 45 Colt rounds used. For all we know, they could have been underpowered/low velocity Cowboy Action loads. Cartridge details, such as bullet weight and shape, would be useful. I'd also like to see where the bad guy was hit.

95% or more of folks do not notice people openly carrying a gun. I have seen this in action in a crowded movie theater lobby. It's quite sad; the clueless somehow continue to flourish.

The solution is training. SouthNarc's ECQC course focuses upon managing close-in confrontations such as this one. A SouthNarc grad would have just shot the guy with no warning.

ouch.jpg

Ouch!

jam2.jpg

Caught in the cluster

goodDraw.jpg

Fending off the second of two bad guys
 
'MiM' Trigger on the repro 1875 Remington..?


I can't imagine a forged Trigger 'breaking'...
 
Another one for the good-guys :D I do have to say,I don't see myself telling him to drop his gun.The first clue he would have had that I was armed,is the FIRST bullet hitting him,others would have been sent with-in split seconds after.So even if he was a little "slow" i'm sure he would have figured it out.
 
The most difficult part is about timing. Go too late and they'll take you down before the gun is out.

homeyShooting.jpg

Not your typical presentation

lifeIsShort.jpg

Demonstrating firing from retention

why2on1sucks.jpg

Guy on the ground was just knocked down. Note the firing from retention. The shooter achieved
thoracic cavity hits.
 
OK if a .45LC didnt take a BG down in 3 shots im gonna have to carry a howitzer.
If i was to OC wich i wont it would be a G20c,and sadly i just traded one for my compact PT745.
 
The GO showed some training skills in:
A. getting off the X
B. Seeking cover
C. Agressively and without hesitation attacking!

I don't know if he is a Cowboy shooter coming or going from a match but I highly question his choice of carry gun.:confused: The GO did a great job and is a gentleman I would like to meet and buy a beer.

I am an open carry advocate that conceals by necessity at times.
 
crebralflix - Yes, any gun can be grabbed but I think it's simple logic that the longer the gun, the more inviting it is for the perp to try, and the easier it is for him to get hold of it. If he does grab that long barrel, now leverage is in his favor as he wrestles for control of the weapon. Even worse with a shotgun or rifle in close quarters.

My close at hand gun in the close confines of my house is a 2" revolver (S&W M64 loaded with +P+ 125 JHPs @ 1100 FPS). I can keep it right up against my body until I need it and then it presents almost no target for a snatch attempt.

My thinking, anyway.
 
Now wait just a minute, I thought the bad guy was supposed to automatically shoot the OC'r.

I read it here all the time
 
A lot of people owe their lives to that GO

There's no evidence that the robber would have shot anyone else after shooting the clerk and robbing the till.

There is evidence that after the Go shot the robber and the robber fled to other parts of the store that two others possibly could have been shot by a very pissed off robber.

This ended as well as it did by pure luck, not by anything the GO did.
 
crebralflix - Yes, any gun can be grabbed but I think it's simple logic that the longer the gun, the more inviting it is for the perp to try, and the easier it is for him to get hold of it. If he does grab that long barrel, now leverage is in his favor as he wrestles for control of the weapon. Even worse with a shotgun or rifle in close quarters.

I have clear evidence in training that this is not the case, except for the part about leverage. The barrel isn't even the issue and, based upon my training, doesn't pop up on my radar as significant. There are techniques we use to avoid this problem, both in how the weapon is held, use of the support arm, combatives, timing and movement. In short, it's not just a simple "the bad guy will grab your gun" since you get a say in what happens too.

I would need to show you in person; text just doesn't cut it. If you're in NoVA, PM me and we can meet up at the gym and go for lunch afterward.

FYI: some of the rifle tricks are really neat.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top