Where's the television loophole for Automatics?

[gym]

Hey now,
I watched the last Rambo movie and he killed a couple hundred guys with that 50 caliber in a minute
All kidding aside, when I had the gym there were a group of a half dozen guys who all had full auto weapons. They invited me to go with them many times, I never did, but if you pay the tax, or stamps, whatever they call the fee down here, you can own an auto or suppressed weapon. Getting a judge or high ranking local LEO to sign off in Florida, isn't a big deal. It all depends on where you live and who you know, "like everything else".
I don't claim to know the exact procedure or cost, but it's not that uncommon down here as in other states.
I never went because the cost is prohibitive, you can spend a grand on ammo for an hour of shooting. It's a little much for the average guy, but if you have the bucks, it must be fun to have one of those.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

anyone can afford a mac 10 in .22LR if you could get one new.

 

[gym]

These were not 22's, they were any ware from 9mm and up to belt fed jobs, I believe it was at Markham park, and the target was a refrigerator. But this was a good 12 years ago

 

[Dimis]

hey chris and zombie read the rest of the post and the question from the OP already eliminated pre 86 from the argument we were discussing NEW production full auto so for me to constantly type NEW would be both redundant and demeaning to the readers as anyone on here shouldnt have to be treated in such a manner

 

[bigalexe]

So what you guys are saying is that you need to have friends in high places who are in Law Enforcement or the Military who can "Borrow" a gun or be rich enough to become a manufacturer. All of this in reference to new firearms of course.

I guess the key to keeping your rights is knowing the right people or having enough cash.

 

[NetJunkie]

Or you can hire a company that does that as a business...like these shows do. If you have the money they'll let you use one for a TV show too. It's not like they hand you the Dillon and wish you a nice day. Very controlled situation. You just don't see it on TV.

 

[LowEx]

My understanding is that not only can a private citizen own and shoot a fully automatic weapon, but that they can also make them too.

Seriously guys, do you think that not a single fully automatic weapon in the US has been made since 1986? Or that the GOVERNMENT has been making them all this time? Yikes, no thanks.

No, private citizens and private companies with the correct dealer licenses seem to be the logical answer to this one.

 

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

My understanding is that not only can a private citizen own and shoot a fully automatic weapon, but that they can also make them too.

Seriously guys, do you think that not a single fully automatic weapon in the US has been made since 1986? Or that the GOVERNMENT has been making them all this time? Yikes, no thanks.

No, private citizens and private companies with the correct dealer licenses seem to be the logical answer to this one.

This post makes no sense?

Of course machine guns are made for LE and military sales or demos.

Private citizens can't have a machine gun for personal use that wasn't in the NFA registry by whatever date it was in 1986.

" No, private citizens and private companies with the correct dealer licenses seem to be the logical answer to this one. " and that the answer to that one is federal prison.

 

[Trebor]

My understanding is that not only can a private citizen own and shoot a fully automatic weapon, but that they can also make them too.

It depends on what you mean by "private citizen."

A regular "private citizen" can possess any MG manufactured and registered as "transferable" MG prior to May 1986 under Federal law. Some states do prohibit MG ownerships under state law though. The private citizen does not need a so-called "class 3" license. Instead he merely fills out the appropriate ATF transfer forms, pays a $200 tax on each MG he purchases, and then buys the MG after the ATF paperwork is approved.

Now, if you expand the definition of "private citizen" to include ATF licensed FFL dealers with a MG manufacturers endorsement, yes, they can manufacture *new* MG's for the military, LE agencies, or as "dealer samples" to show those agencies. They can only keep those MG's as long as they retain the license though. Once they surrender that MG manufacturer's FFL they have to surrender any post-86 Dealer Sample MG's they still have.

While a FFL MG dealer or FFL MG manufacturer is technically a "private citizen" in that they aren't employed by the government the hurdles and fees involved with becoming a FFL MG dealer or manufacturer place it out of the reach of most people. And remember the ATF requires a FFL dealer or FFL manufacturer to be "in the business" of dealing or manufacturng. You aren't supposed to have a dealer or manufacturer FFL just to add to your personal collection and that applies double to MG dealers or MG manufacturers.

 

[LowEx]

Ok, carrying a license issued by a government agency does not make you any less of a private citizen. My drivers license does not make me a government entity.

I understand it is a costly endeavor, and does indeed basically require you to be in the business of manufacturing those weapons for the sale to a government entity only, it does not change the fact that Machine Guns are being manufactured and held in the private domain.

Let me clarify my understanding, any who is knowledgeable or even holds one of these licenses please correct me if I am mistaken.

1.) A non-dealer may purchase and use a pre '86 Machine Gun assuming it is registered and the NFA tax is paid for.

2.) A dealer may manufacture then own, and use a post '86 Machine Gun in their capacity as a dealer of this item. So long as they carry a valid license to do so.

Both of the above are specifically private citizens (or entities, if a company).

The vast majority of people doing the 'Fun Shoots' with post '86 weaponry is due to the capacity of a private citizen to do #2, not the courtesy of the government.


Here's a question for those legitimately in the know:
If a Machine Gun is produced but no government agency takes interest in it, must the post '86 Machine Gun be destroyed?
It would not make much sense for this to be the case, given that innumerable numbers of prototypes are made with full auto function, but are never presented as a bid for a government contract. Nor were they produced with the intention of them becoming a bid for a contract, only for the purposes of researching or expanding the technology. Doesn't this then imply that a dealer can effectively make, keep, and use whatever it desires so long as it holds a license to do so? Been curious about this one for a while.

 

[evan price]

1. Anybody who is able to pass a Federal scrutiny, get a local LEO signoff or other means (such as a trust), and pays the $200 transfer tax, and lives in a state that does not forbid it, may legally buy a fully automatic weapon made before May 19, 1986 when the NFA registry was closed. There are more regulations that need to be followed- such as notifying ATF if it will be crossing state lines, etc.


2. Any Class-2 SOT type 07 or 10 FFL (which is a license to make weapons) who has a SOT paid can make new NFA firearms as long as they have a 'Dealer-Demo Letter' which has to be on the letterhead of a specific agency who wishes to investigate purchase of a specific type of MG. This isn't really the loophole that you think it is, because the ATF seriously looks over these letters when the $200 "Making tax" is paid. The dealer can transfer this new MG to another Class-2 FFL dealer, to a government or LE agency, or keep it as a sample.

You can't just call up Glock and ask for a G18 on the hopes to show it to your local Sheriff's office- the Sheriff's office has to send you an official letter asking to test or demonstrate the firearm, then you can get one for a sample. How you get the letter is salesmanship- like for example, spend a lot of time with the SWAT guys touting how much "they really need this new Superboomer Autopuncher" and how you can get them one.

 

[MarineOne]

Having worked in Hollywood (Paramount Pictures for a TV show, God how I hate to admit this) there are two different ways that guns make it to TV shows and movies.

The real deal.
These are real firearms owned by individuals, companies, law enforcement organizations, museums, and collectors, and are leased/borrowed for the production. If you remember R. Lee Ermey's "Mail Call" show, he once used a PPsh-41 to ventilate a watermelon .... which was used from either an armory museum or someone's personal collection of WWII weapons.


Prop guns.
These are props that are modelled off real weapons but are used and owned by the studios solely for firing specialized blanks. Remember TV shows like "The A-Team" and movies like "Heat" .... these are great examples of prop guns that look like the real thing, but are far from it.



Kris

 

[EvanWilliams]

Bingo. In 1988 as a reservist I was issued an M16 made in 1967 with who only knows how many rounds thru it. The select fire switch was locked at semi-auto. I like my Colt 6920 better.

 

[NMGonzo]

Well ... not everybody has a machine gun.

They have been working at that ban since the 1920's; they where deemed to succeed.

 

[GunsAmerica Fan]

... I have no need to go 120 MPH either but I sure as hell wouldn't mind owning a Ferrari.

Heck you can do that in my 350z!!

There is a great machine gun rental place in Manchester NH called the Firing Line. You can rent almost anything and he's even got water cooled machine guns from WWI.

 

[oneounceload]

I guess the key to keeping your rights is knowing the right people or having enough cash.

That's been true since the founding of this country......


MANY gun ranges have full-auto weapons to rent - it's not expensive to rent, it IS expensive to feed however.

 

[ny32182]

Military folks will, in my experience, universally tell you that the auto function of the M16 is not used by them for any serious purpose.

There are also plenty of AR components out there that are superior to what the military uses.

 

[Manco]

Automatic fire has many uses, including suppressive fire, breaching, etc.

Admittedly it is better to have and not need than need and not have, but couldn't you just repeatedly pull the trigger quickly whenever you needed to?

It is a waste of ammo at rifle distances (unless it is a belt-fed on a tripod).

Right, and there certainly are automatic weapons assigned to squads and fire teams for whenever sustained fire is required over time, but these weapons--true machine guns--were designed for that purpose, and even then are usually fired in bursts so that they won't overheat or use up ammo too quickly. It is rare that one would require sustained full automatic fire for a long period of time--you'd need an extraordinary abundance of both ammo and open targets, which is why I said "most circumstances." And with so-called assault rifles, it's not as practical or useful--the weapon would have to be reloaded frequently and may fail due to heat when needed the most.

It is not a waste of ammo at handgun distances, where a full-auto rifle or subgun is a really good way to put something down in a hurry.

CQB in really close quarters may be a relatively good circumstance for automatic fire, but like I suggested earlier, couldn't one pull the trigger two or three times in rapid succession? It's not as fast as automatic, but does it need to be? And if you always need to put several rounds into targets, then maybe you should put more powerful rounds into them instead.

Military folks will, in my experience, universally tell you that the auto function of the M16 is not used by them for any serious purpose.

That's right, and their reasons are based on many years of combat experience that contradicted one of the original reasons they switched to "intermediate" rounds in the first place, which was full automatic fire. I suppose that one of these reasons was running out of ammo all the time or overheating your rifle until it starts jamming after hitting virtually nothing, but that's just an excuse to ruin everybody's fun, right? Don't get me wrong, though--I didn't say that automatic fire isn't fun.

 

[Erik M]

The loophole is called 'money'.

 

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

Admittedly it is better to have and not need than need and not have, but couldn't you just repeatedly pull the trigger quickly whenever you needed to?

I cannot pull the trigger at ±600 RPM. Not sure of anyone else who can either.

The loophole is called 'money'.

ding ding ding ding ding

we have a winner!

 

[Tamara]

He has offered me several different weapons for less than $1,000 each. Of course there is a $200 tax to pay each time the gun changes hands and about a six month check out time by the Feds.

Dude, I would jump on those. He must really like you!

Even if the guns he was offering you were just MACs or Uzi conversions you could immediately turn around and better than triple your money. The sorriest transferrable tube guns are trading at $3k+ these days.

 

[KingTiger]

anyone can afford a mac 10 in .22LR if you could get one new.

Lage Mfg. has conversions available now. I'm on the waiting list for one for my SWD M11/9.

http://www.max-11.com/

 

[Nate1778]

Here is some super swell reading on the subject, should answer all yer questions should you be able to keep your eyes open long enough.

http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIF1.html

 

[EvanWilliams]

My dad is retired infantry. He tells me that he was taught to always fire the m60 or M2 in short bursts,usually 6 rounds. Only if being swarmed would you lay down on the trigger and their would be consequences (but not as severe as taking an AK round to the head)He calls it final protective fire. .

BTW, his favorite weapon? The M1!!! But the most fun weapon, M60.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Notice how foreign made machineguns were prohibited for private ownership, except as dealer samples since 1968, and domestic manufactured ones for private ownership prohibited since 1986, but civilian "security" firms, like Blackwater, and others owned and operated by former federal employees (retired CIA, FBI, etc) have been able to circumvent the very clear restrictions issued by these laws by coming up with a vague "exception to the rule" for corporations? They ALL seem to have access to MP-5's, etc. Since when is a corporation allowed to own a machinegun? WHO IS the corporation? In every other NFA transaction, only a single name goes on the form, that person is backgrounded, etc, and cleared, and then ony HE can have the weapon. I guess the federal gov't sure takes care of "their own", by letting them bypass the law, and create monopolies in the "specialty" armed security business.