Which .380s fire from a locked-breech or delayed-blowback?
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Cosmoline
Member
The Llama IIIA springs to mind.
Remington 51?
Remington 51?
In addition to Cosmoline's list, the following .380s are locked breech guns.
Kel-Tec P3AT
Colt Govt .380
Colt Mustang
Colt Mustang +II
Colt Pony
Some of the early CZ24 pistols were made in .380 with a rotating barrel lock up but the model was later converted to straight blowback.
I believe that some of the S-Series Star pistols are chambered in .380 with a locked breech design.
Kel-Tec P3AT
Colt Govt .380
Colt Mustang
Colt Mustang +II
Colt Pony
Some of the early CZ24 pistols were made in .380 with a rotating barrel lock up but the model was later converted to straight blowback.
I believe that some of the S-Series Star pistols are chambered in .380 with a locked breech design.
treebeard
Member
I had a Beretta .380 that I thought was delayed-blowback?
That is correct on the older ones. Its a little copy of a 1911, right down to the grip safety and locking lugs. However, in later years the .380 went to a straight blowback design like the .32 and .22 versions. I have an older IIIA Stoeger import that is a straight blowback. I'd rather have the locked breech version, but its still a neat little gun.
Grunt
Member
Don't forget the Colt Mustang series fires from a locked breech as well. Same as the full size 1911 pistol.
Snake Eyes
Member
I believe the SIG 230 and 232 are delayed blowback, but I'm going to wait for someone else here to confirm.
What is the deal with the SIG 230 and 232?
I'm not sure. What is the deal with the SIG 230 and 232?
That'd be great, if the SIGs are delayed blowback. However, I thought those SIGs are just simple blowback designs based on copies of the Walther blowback.
I'm not sure. What is the deal with the SIG 230 and 232?
makarovnik
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Why do you want to know?
There are advantages to blow back actions too. Simplicity and accuracy.
There are advantages to blow back actions too. Simplicity and accuracy.
usp9
Member
I believe the Sig and the Beretta are simple blowback.
denfoote
Member
The PPK/S and the PPK are blowback.
I have the PPK/S and the recoil ain't bad!!
I have the PPK/S and the recoil ain't bad!!
Indeed recoil is the issue.
A locked breech or delayed blowback gun will have less felt recoil then the same gun would have as a blowback.
I actually think that delayed blowback (like with grooves or dimples in chamber) are my favorites because they offer the same low bore axis as a blowback with the same or similar felt recoil reduction of a locked breech.
Also, the delayed blowbacks are smaller and lighter like the blowback.
I personally think the delayed blowbacks have all the advantages of both locked breech and blowback, but with none of the disadvantages of either.
The only downside I've heard of with the grooved or dimpled chamber delayed blowbacks is that they damage the brass, which makes reloading impossible, but I don't care because I don't reload.
So a delayed blowback .380 might be ideal for me. However, a locked breech .380 would also be nice.
Do delayed blowback and/or locked breech give more velocity than a blowback when comparing same barrel lengths?
A locked breech or delayed blowback gun will have less felt recoil then the same gun would have as a blowback.
I actually think that delayed blowback (like with grooves or dimples in chamber) are my favorites because they offer the same low bore axis as a blowback with the same or similar felt recoil reduction of a locked breech.
Also, the delayed blowbacks are smaller and lighter like the blowback.
I personally think the delayed blowbacks have all the advantages of both locked breech and blowback, but with none of the disadvantages of either.
The only downside I've heard of with the grooved or dimpled chamber delayed blowbacks is that they damage the brass, which makes reloading impossible, but I don't care because I don't reload.
So a delayed blowback .380 might be ideal for me. However, a locked breech .380 would also be nice.
Do delayed blowback and/or locked breech give more velocity than a blowback when comparing same barrel lengths?
MachIVshooter
Member
The LWS380 is virtually identicle to the NAA Guardian and they are blowback, fixed-barrel guns.
Delayed blowback is not used in many guns besides HK's (and clones) with a few exceptions (VZ-52, CETME), and is done with rollers.
The CETME actually pioneered roller-delayed blowback and HK capitalized on it.
The 84 and 85 are simple blowback.
Overgrown PPK's
The Fluted chamber design is only employed for high-pressure rifle cartridges. The fluting equalizes the pressure inside and out so that the case will not expand into the chamber walls, causing the extractor to rip off the case head. It does destroy brass (the flutes striate the cases and they will get stuck in a die, trust me!)
My HK P7 marked the brass but just with carbon deposits -no reloading problems ! The only exception was some [1 box] original S&W Nyclad ammo which didn't reliably function. It was VERY soft and did expand into the grooves ....My test of different actions included a Remington M51[delayed blowback], Mauser HSc [blowback], and Cz 24 [rotating barrel locked breech]. They were the same size and weight .The M51 had the lowest recoil, the Mauser had the highest....The velocity of the three would be the same .What the different systems do is have different time/ recoil curves so that 'apparent recoil" [what you feel] is different .The best , the delayed blowback spreads out the recoil energy over time more than the others....The M51 did not have a fluted chamber like the P7.
ugaarguy
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Wbond,
If you can find one, I think a CZ-24 would be great for what you want. The rotating barrel method of locking the breech keeps the bore axis low like on a blowback, and the locked breech combined with the weight of the gun make recoil very mild indeed. My granddad still has one that my great uncle brought back from WWII; at almost 77 years old he can still shoot it like very easily. While a bit large and heavy for a 380 by today's standards it's only slightly larger than a Makarov, and easily slips into a jacket or similar size pocket.
usp9
Member
Seecamps are refered to on their web site as retarded blowback, in that the chamber has an expansion ring or groove cut into it to allow the case to expand and "grip" the chamber wall...thus retarding the action until the pressure is reduced. This is what lessens the felt recoil in a Seecamp.
I don't know what NAA does in the Guardians.
Most .380s are not difficult to shoot. The Sig is one of the lightest at around 17 oz. and is a pleasure to shoot. The heavier ones like the Bersa, Beretta and CZ 83, at around 23 oz. are quite light in recoil. One of my favorites was an old Astra Constable, a PPK clone, that was a fun gun to shoot. This was a straight blowback, but very, very manageable because the overall design is good.
I'm not sure many people could tell much difference between straight blowback and a locked breech or delayed blowback in a similar sized gun.
usp9, yes they could , see my previous post, the difference is very noticable. Looking at your forum name - HK did a great job with the USP. Originally designed for the .40 I did a comparison between the P7 M10 and USP .While the M10 is a delayed blowback and is heavier the USP felt recoil ,with it's special locked breech system , is quite close to the M10 !!
usp9
Member
"
I was refering to .380 caliber, small frame blowback guns. The P7 design is unique and I agree with you, there is a lessened recoil in a P7. Mine is a PSP and is one of my favorite 9mms.
"
I was refering to .380 caliber, small frame blowback guns. The P7 design is unique and I agree with you, there is a lessened recoil in a P7. Mine is a PSP and is one of my favorite 9mms.
Delayed blowback pistols of fluted, grooved, ringed, or dimpled chamber design
Delayed and retarded blowback are synonymous (I think).
I read that AMT invented the fluted chamber delayed blowback for their .22 Magnum pistolas in the 1960s or early 1970s. Just because I read it, doesn't make it so, but that's what I read.
Makarovs that were imported into USA are simple blowback. However, the next generation of Makarov .380s and 9x18s (not imported into USA) use a fluted chamber delayed blowback design. I think an older Makarov might be converted just by changing barrels.
I have an older style Makarov 9x18 simple blowback. I'm not fond of the recoil. So converting it to delayed blowback has it's attractions. However, the gun is to big (to thick) to conceal very well. So why bother? The Taurus Millenium Pros are locked breech (.32, .380, 9mm) and fit my hand well. However, they are to thick in the slide for my carry preferences.
I prefer the fluted (aka ringed, aka grooved) or dimpled chamber delayed blowbacks because that gives the low bore axis of a blowback combined with the most reduced felt recoil. So really it's the best of all things, except no reloading. I don't care about reloading anyway.
I'd also be happy with some other type delayed blowback, or a locked breech .380.
However, I want one small enough to conceal well. My Firestorm (basically a Bersa) is at the upper end of what I can conceal in summer clothing. Also at the upper end for size and bulk. The weight is no problem. It's the barrel-slide and grip-mag length and the width. I carry IWB and there isn't quite enough room for comfort due to my carrying two guns (the one for shooting and the one for fun). The one for shooting keeps poking the one for fun, which is NOT comfortable.
You guys have given me some good ideas and gun models to look into, such as SeeCamp, CZ-24, Remington 51, and others. I'm not sure about the sizes of these. Don't know about availability of any of these. The Colt Pony is a DA only .380 which has a reputation for stiff, crappy trigger pull, but also there are spring kits that supposedly fix that. So maybe a Colt Pony? My idea of the ideal .380 ACP barrel length is 3". Why? Because my current Firestorm (Bersa) 3.5" barrel and slide seem about .25" to long. So I figure that a 3" barrel should be ideal and give me .25" extra room in my pants so my guns don't collide anymore.
P.S. - I own a CZ-83 .32, .380, and 9x18 and the recoil is tolerable in the .380. The .32 is easy. However, have you ever tried to conceal a CZ-83s? They shoot really nice, are super accurate, but carry just aweful for concealed carry, IME. I've tried. Their accuracy is amazing though. However, those CZ-83 guns were made for external holster carry. For a holster gun worn in plain view, it'd be a nice, small, lightish (28 oz) holster gun, but for concealment, no thanks.
P.P.S. - In case anyone doesn't know, my recoil sensitivity is due to arthritis and my hand is held together by 4 screws, plus wrist problems on other hand. So I have good reasons to go to great lengths to reduced recoil. If not for the recoil sensitivity, I'd just get a Bersa concealed carry compact model. However, I know that wouldn't be appreciated by my hands. Do you think there will be a .32 ACP version of that later?
Delayed and retarded blowback are synonymous (I think).
I read that AMT invented the fluted chamber delayed blowback for their .22 Magnum pistolas in the 1960s or early 1970s. Just because I read it, doesn't make it so, but that's what I read.
Makarovs that were imported into USA are simple blowback. However, the next generation of Makarov .380s and 9x18s (not imported into USA) use a fluted chamber delayed blowback design. I think an older Makarov might be converted just by changing barrels.
I have an older style Makarov 9x18 simple blowback. I'm not fond of the recoil. So converting it to delayed blowback has it's attractions. However, the gun is to big (to thick) to conceal very well. So why bother? The Taurus Millenium Pros are locked breech (.32, .380, 9mm) and fit my hand well. However, they are to thick in the slide for my carry preferences.
I probably should have stated this in the first place: I'm most interested in a gun that is the same size or smaller than a standard Bersa .380. I'm not looking for light because light makes recoil worse. However, I am looking for a shorter barrel, slide, and grip. If it could be narrower, that would also be appreciated. Something small dimensions, heavy (20 oz to 24 oz), comfortable to shoot, and ideally delayed blowback, or at least locked breech. The Colt Mustang+II seems ideal. However, the idea of sticking a cocked and locked .380 in the front of my pants makes me nervous. Bang! Now I'm a hen.
My current carry gun is a Firestorm .32 ACP. Same as the .380, but with 2 or 3 rounds more capacity. A good gun for me. However, I could step up to a .380 of same weight for carry and target practice, if it were delayed blowback or locked breech. I think that a delayed or locked .380 would recoil similar as the .32 ACP simple blowback I have.
My current carry gun is a Firestorm .32 ACP. Same as the .380, but with 2 or 3 rounds more capacity. A good gun for me. However, I could step up to a .380 of same weight for carry and target practice, if it were delayed blowback or locked breech. I think that a delayed or locked .380 would recoil similar as the .32 ACP simple blowback I have.
I prefer the fluted (aka ringed, aka grooved) or dimpled chamber delayed blowbacks because that gives the low bore axis of a blowback combined with the most reduced felt recoil. So really it's the best of all things, except no reloading. I don't care about reloading anyway.
I'd also be happy with some other type delayed blowback, or a locked breech .380.
However, I want one small enough to conceal well. My Firestorm (basically a Bersa) is at the upper end of what I can conceal in summer clothing. Also at the upper end for size and bulk. The weight is no problem. It's the barrel-slide and grip-mag length and the width. I carry IWB and there isn't quite enough room for comfort due to my carrying two guns (the one for shooting and the one for fun). The one for shooting keeps poking the one for fun, which is NOT comfortable.
You guys have given me some good ideas and gun models to look into, such as SeeCamp, CZ-24, Remington 51, and others. I'm not sure about the sizes of these. Don't know about availability of any of these. The Colt Pony is a DA only .380 which has a reputation for stiff, crappy trigger pull, but also there are spring kits that supposedly fix that. So maybe a Colt Pony? My idea of the ideal .380 ACP barrel length is 3". Why? Because my current Firestorm (Bersa) 3.5" barrel and slide seem about .25" to long. So I figure that a 3" barrel should be ideal and give me .25" extra room in my pants so my guns don't collide anymore.
P.S. - I own a CZ-83 .32, .380, and 9x18 and the recoil is tolerable in the .380. The .32 is easy. However, have you ever tried to conceal a CZ-83s? They shoot really nice, are super accurate, but carry just aweful for concealed carry, IME. I've tried. Their accuracy is amazing though. However, those CZ-83 guns were made for external holster carry. For a holster gun worn in plain view, it'd be a nice, small, lightish (28 oz) holster gun, but for concealment, no thanks.
P.P.S. - In case anyone doesn't know, my recoil sensitivity is due to arthritis and my hand is held together by 4 screws, plus wrist problems on other hand. So I have good reasons to go to great lengths to reduced recoil. If not for the recoil sensitivity, I'd just get a Bersa concealed carry compact model. However, I know that wouldn't be appreciated by my hands. Do you think there will be a .32 ACP version of that later?
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