CoRoMo
Member
There's just absolutely no certainty to that statement whatsoever.
Which .45 ACP load is better for personal protection?
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Vern Humphrey
Member
You don't believe you have a right to defend yourself if someone is shooting at you from behind cover? Or trying to run over you? Or if a carjacker is driving off with your bleeding wife or child lying on the seat?
..."If the individual is behind a windshield, door or wall, then he isn't a direct threat and I'm going to have a lot of explaining to do to a jury."...
where do you think the term "vehicular homicide" came from? your part of alaska seems much different than the one i lived in. i doubt that a perp who had shot at you and then still armed, slipped behind a wall in your own house would give a jury much doubt. you aren't in the P.R.O.C.!!!
gunnie
where do you think the term "vehicular homicide" came from? your part of alaska seems much different than the one i lived in. i doubt that a perp who had shot at you and then still armed, slipped behind a wall in your own house would give a jury much doubt. you aren't in the P.R.O.C.!!!
gunnie
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stinger 327
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Vehicular manslaughter using a car as a weapon killing and assaulting another person with a vehicle. ADW? Assault with a deadly weapon.
KodiakBeer
member
What if, what if, what if...
I want to put two in his chest as quick as I can pull the trigger, then another in his head if he hasn't dropped. I can do that better with lighter rounds. That makes me better prepared for the most common real-life defense scenarios rather than the TV show defense scenarios.
If he's driving away with my wife in the car, I have as good a chance of shooting her as him by blazing away through windows and car doors. Bullets have a tendency to deflect upon hitting curved surfaces.
I want to put two in his chest as quick as I can pull the trigger, then another in his head if he hasn't dropped. I can do that better with lighter rounds. That makes me better prepared for the most common real-life defense scenarios rather than the TV show defense scenarios.
If he's driving away with my wife in the car, I have as good a chance of shooting her as him by blazing away through windows and car doors. Bullets have a tendency to deflect upon hitting curved surfaces.
KodiakBeer
member
If he's in my house, I'm not goofy enough to use a marginal defense weapon like a pistol. He's being met with a shorty 12 gauge and 00 Buck. Pistols are for use on the street when you can't get to a real firearm.
Boba Fett
Member
There's actually been some pretty good discussion on Tom Gresham's GunTalk about using 45 ball ammo instead of hollow point.
Not sure which way I'd go these days. I can see benefit for both.
My personal hollow point preference is Winchester Ranger RA45T.
In terms of accuracy, expansion consistency, and of course how it shoots, I think it is pretty good. I'd probably go with Hornady as a close second.
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/SelfProtectionLoads.htm
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/P220ammo.htm
Not sure which way I'd go these days. I can see benefit for both.
My personal hollow point preference is Winchester Ranger RA45T.
In terms of accuracy, expansion consistency, and of course how it shoots, I think it is pretty good. I'd probably go with Hornady as a close second.
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/SelfProtectionLoads.htm
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/P220ammo.htm
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stinger 327
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Whether the .45 expands or not it is still going to make a large hole It has been said that fMJ will overpenetrate?There's actually been some pretty good discussion on Tom Gresham's GunTalk about using 45 ball ammo instead of hollow point.
Not sure which way I'd go these days. I can see benefit for both.
My personal hollow point preference is Winchester Ranger RA45T.
In terms of accuracy, expansion consistency, and of course how it shoots, I think it is pretty good. I'd probably go with Hornady as a close second.
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/SelfProtectionLoads.htm
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/P220ammo.htm
Yet it has been said in mouse guns that don't have the velocity to expand a hollow point one is better off with a FMJ to be able to penetrate main vital systems to stop them.
Case here is a heavier vs. a lighter .45 that has high velocity vs. a slow moving heavier bullet which would be more effective? We know that the placement is vital but which would be more effective?
A .25 ACP can be effective too with proper placement but chances are?
Now that we have all of these high velocity fragmented rounds like magsafe that sends a .25 ACP at 1,400 fps. Ditto for .357 and 9mm these fragmented rounds travel real fast creating a devistating wound but you still need enough penetration to hit the vital spot.
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stinger 327
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Which load and brand are these .45 ACP's? Here is some great mushrooming and expansion. Winchester brand and weight?
Hatterasguy
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Don't worry about the details, shoot whatever load works best in your pistol.
I use Remington UMC FMJ rounds in my .45.
I use Remington UMC FMJ rounds in my .45.
CoRoMo
Member
RA45T Winchester Ranger 45 acp T-Series 230 gr
I love Win-Ranger ammo. I'm dying to try it out in a few more of my guns, and if reliable, I'd love to carry it daily.
..."What if, what if, what if..."...
i don't care if you want to carry 185HP. really feel it has a lot going for it. i used to carry speer pre +P "lawman" 200gr HP. the original "flying ashtray" i added the "pre" 'cause these were hotter than anything i have found in +P commercially of late. primers flattened out almost completely to the edge. i feel they would work nicely, also.
but my statement of preferring flat point ball for penetration brought a response that has been hard for everyone to agree with. i said:
..."if you think about it some, there are many situations where penetration is very useful."...
there have been postings from many who could think of possibilities.
we aren't making all encompassing statements.
..."If he's driving away with my wife in the car, I have as good a chance of shooting her as him by blazing away through windows and car doors."...
so then you agree that shooting a perp through the windshield/barrier isn't always a legally undefendable act? what are we disagreeing about?
gunnie
i don't care if you want to carry 185HP. really feel it has a lot going for it. i used to carry speer pre +P "lawman" 200gr HP. the original "flying ashtray" i added the "pre" 'cause these were hotter than anything i have found in +P commercially of late. primers flattened out almost completely to the edge. i feel they would work nicely, also.
but my statement of preferring flat point ball for penetration brought a response that has been hard for everyone to agree with. i said:
..."if you think about it some, there are many situations where penetration is very useful."...
there have been postings from many who could think of possibilities.
we aren't making all encompassing statements.
..."If he's driving away with my wife in the car, I have as good a chance of shooting her as him by blazing away through windows and car doors."...
so then you agree that shooting a perp through the windshield/barrier isn't always a legally undefendable act? what are we disagreeing about?
gunnie
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Boba Fett
Member
They are Winchester RA45T, 230gr.
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/index.php/cName/45-acp-hollow-point-ammo
http://www.tds-us.com/viewitem.php/tds/pd884996/WINCHESTER_RANGER_RA45T_-_.45ACP_230grn_SXT
http://www.ombexpress.com/p_AM537.aspx?source=153INGB
Agreed. That is one side of the debate.
IIRC (and I'll try to find the GunTalk episode where they discussed it), HP is good for expansion and preventing overpenetration. Ball ammo is good for not jamming (especially in 1911 pistols).
I don't remember the rest of their discussion.
Maybe we can get Mr. Gresham to way in? I'll PM him and see if he can recall the discussion or which episode it was.
KodiakBeer
member
About the wisdom of shooting people through car windows? I was given a "what if" and in my judgment, shooting through the window endangers my wife as well as the perp. So, I'm not going to shoot at a car containing my wife with any load.
If I carried a full sized steel pistol, I'd probably lean to the heavier slugs. From the beginning though, I've stated that I'm shooting from a compact aluminum framed pistol that I shoot much better with 165 grain hydra-shoks. I think (for me) that the faster recovery time between shots makes it the best choice - for me, for my carry gun.
KodiakBeer
member
Yes. Shooting at a car containing your wife and child would be legal (in that circumstance), but still stupid.
Vern Humphrey
Member
I'm puzzled. How does it increase your wife's chances of survival if you let a carjacker drive off with her?
How does it increase your chances of survival if you let someone shoot at you from behind cover without returning fire?
How does it increase your chances of survival if you let someone run you down with a car while you hold your fire?
How does it increase your chances of survival if you let someone shoot at you from behind cover without returning fire?
How does it increase your chances of survival if you let someone run you down with a car while you hold your fire?
..."Yes. Shooting at a car containing your wife and child would be legal"...
then we agree.
..."but still stupid"...
here again, there are different viewpoints to consider:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot1.htm
see also:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot2.htm
the target distance from the glass will be much less in a reversal situation. same is the prime consideration for bullet deflection.
not trynna be hostile, here.
but that's really what THR is about, discussing these topics in a friendly, open minded manner. same makes the idea exchange process much easier.
gunnie
then we agree.
..."but still stupid"...
here again, there are different viewpoints to consider:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot1.htm
see also:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot2.htm
the target distance from the glass will be much less in a reversal situation. same is the prime consideration for bullet deflection.
not trynna be hostile, here.
but that's really what THR is about, discussing these topics in a friendly, open minded manner. same makes the idea exchange process much easier.
gunnie
buck460XVR
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and whatever load you feel most confident with. If one makes a decision for SD ammo based on their own practical experience, then it is not a bad choice, nor is it the High Road to trash them for making this decision just because they don't agree with you. Regardless of one's choice, there is always gonna be some scenario where some other ammo/weapon would be better. One should never make this decision lightly, but ultimately, they are the one that has to answer to themselves if and when it fails. For 99+% of us, fortunately, we'll never have the opportunity to find out.
KodiakBeer
member
If my wife is being driven away by a perp, she has her own gun to deal with the situation. I'm not going to make it tougher by shooting at her.
KodiakBeer
member
But a .45 makes bigger holes.
KodiakBeer
member
And what if a sniper is shooting at me, wouldn't I be better served with a Barrett? In the summer I only carry a .380, so I might as well just put myself out of my misery now...
If I were choosing between a 230/875+ and 185/1050+ loads in .45, I would probably go with the 230+P HST. I've shot some 185 Golden Sabers out of the 97B I used to own, they were good, I would be comfortable with them as well.
Or any even reasonably current JHP bullet loaded to significant levels. I don't buy that a bullet needs penetration only so an overweight bullet going very slow is fine, and I don't buy that energy causes significant wounds out of any service-level handgun.
My favorite loads are all dramatically expanding heavy for caliber ones. HST is the king specific bullet as far as that goes, since all the bullets in that line expand progressively more as weight/sectional density goes up. So ten, fifteen, twenty years ago, you would generally have to decide between decent sectional density/penetration, and adequate expansion. Now that isn't the case, and the modern JHPs can make better use of a longer bullet, both in penetration as always, and expansion as well.
A couple hundred feet per second isn't anything special, today that 230 at ~925 is going to out-penetrate and out-expand the 185 at ~1100. Energy is meaningless at service caliber rates, except to show a very general "which is overall more powerful", and even that isn't useful to determine which is more effective. Use energy to decide between hunting+ calibers. Defense calibers won't show anything beyond an irrelevant general trend in regards to energy.
Or any even reasonably current JHP bullet loaded to significant levels. I don't buy that a bullet needs penetration only so an overweight bullet going very slow is fine, and I don't buy that energy causes significant wounds out of any service-level handgun.
My favorite loads are all dramatically expanding heavy for caliber ones. HST is the king specific bullet as far as that goes, since all the bullets in that line expand progressively more as weight/sectional density goes up. So ten, fifteen, twenty years ago, you would generally have to decide between decent sectional density/penetration, and adequate expansion. Now that isn't the case, and the modern JHPs can make better use of a longer bullet, both in penetration as always, and expansion as well.
A couple hundred feet per second isn't anything special, today that 230 at ~925 is going to out-penetrate and out-expand the 185 at ~1100. Energy is meaningless at service caliber rates, except to show a very general "which is overall more powerful", and even that isn't useful to determine which is more effective. Use energy to decide between hunting+ calibers. Defense calibers won't show anything beyond an irrelevant general trend in regards to energy.
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